Knowing when to end something

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This makes perfect sense, and really fundamentally explains so much about how I think, how other people think, and why one way clashes with the other.



Yep. If I think of a typical situation where something like this happens, I just feel like my head is spinning trying to figure out what is going on. It's like something has been assumed by the other person along the way, and I wasn't aware of it. So I'm not even sure anymore what we are talking about, or what kinds of decisions are being made.

In fact I've had some conversations like that recently, and that is part of what prompted me to make this thread.



Yes. I think it is definitely associated with tendencies to be psychopathic and/or narcissistic. But there has to be something within a person that makes them more or less prone to this. I think many people are basically honest, and if they filter or withhold information it is essentially for benign purposes (ie, telling a polite lie to avoid offending someone). But others can be much more manipulative or guileful, without necessarily being clinically sociopathic. I don't know if it's provoked more by external social pressure, or simply the inner drive to be social...I mean, it's kind of a chicken/egg question of which comes first. Does the person adapt to a hierarchical, win/lose environment by becoming more narcissistic and/or psychopathic, or more so, are they contributing to and creating that environment simply by having those tendencies in the first place?



I've definitely caught on to how some people can manipulate me with uncertainty, whether they have a conscious thought process about doing so or not. Unpredictability, spontaneity, etc. keep a person engaged and trying to figure out the next move, and some people enjoy that in some weird way that I don't understand. But with me, it generates so much anxiety and confusion, it inevitably backfires on the person who is trying to "game" me. The sheer fact that I cannot figure out what is going on makes me want to end things immediately. This is why things like teasing or flirting absolutely drive me away instead of engaging my interest.

I wonder if the autistic trait of being unexpressive in body language and facial expression, basically evolved as a survival mechanism against psychopathic manipulation...a natural way of having a poker face for those of us who would otherwise have difficulty putting that face on at will. In binary logic, either you are going to be fully open and expressive, or fully blank or uncommunicative.

I can relate, I've been there...well let me put it this way. If people see you as weird or unstable, it's not because there's something inherently unstable about you. It's more likely because you somehow upset the social norms and status quo of that group.

Yes and I think it is from the external aggressive pressure from the hive mind.
I think that once the hive mind software gets into the subconscious that it gains control over the chemical reward systems inside the brain. The individual then becomes prone to and eventually hooked on giving in to the pressures of group dynamics, - different types of conformity and so forth.

I don't think most NTs are born as psychopaths or narcissists, but I think that they easily become what are called proto-psychopaths by way of imitating the behaviors of real psychopaths. In some ways there will be little or no differences between the proto-psychopath and the real psychopath as far as the observable behavior, though the internal driving forces will be different.




I think the intelligence or logic came first, and was emergent due to environmental factors.
I think the hijacking of the brain's chemical reward system was just one step of the evolution of this intelligence in its drive for power, and cumulative development into the hive mind.
The chemical reward is the inner drive mechanism.
The terms "polite" and "offense" are parts of the manipulative logic with the purpose of controlling others.
They seem weaker or less harmful than other manipulations but the base logic is the same because it is recursive within the subconscious though and expresses in many ways.
That's what I think.



They do enjoy it due to the chemical rewards they receive. Schadenfreude is an example of this.
In the wiki entry for Oxytocin they talk about how this chemical can create or enhance the experience of schadenfreude.



Me too, and yes it very often backfires on them as I attempt to engage real issues overtly.
This causes a lot of friction and confusion within interactions, so many NT strategies become ineffective.



I wonder about that. I have considered psychopathy to be something that emerged in order to provide a predatory role in social structures. Unfortunately for me, I know of some psychopaths who think this, that they are evolutionarily superior, and are here to be shepherds among the NT sheep. They have a massive advantage being mentally unencumbered by emotion and guilt, and this often allows them to develop extreme intelligence.

I think that as autistics, we do not fill either of those slots well at all. We make horrible sheep, and we have no interest in being shepherds of them.
We share a few characteristics of the psychopaths, but not because we were born unable to experience feeling/emotion, but because we consciously and subconsciously filter them which results in dissociation, giving us things like blunted affect, delayed emotional responses, anhedonia, and such. It doesn't help that we are more prone to things like PTSD and hyper-intense emotion, which only encourages our brains to become better at dissociation as a protection mechanism.

I think some psychopaths target us for manipulation due to our social gullibility, and I think a few of the psychopaths really hate us because we can match their intelligence, but we have no interest in using it for manipulation, control, or engaging in hierarchies.

The psychopaths that I know of have been plotting ways to use us for their own gain. They are horrible people. They leave a trail of destruction wherever they go.

Sorry for going off subject. We are known for our tangents.

Usually I talk it out with my friends and see what they think. I usually react from emotions, and it doesn't always turn out great but when I talk it out with someone I have a better idea of how to respond to the situation.

No need to apologize. Your posts are always interesting. And I think this is all very much on topic.




Ah, I needed a reminder about this - the chemical rewards people get from doing the things they do. I forget about this and don't think about it much, I guess because I never had much interest in the science behind it.

It's clear to me that not only is my brain wired differently in the electrical sense, but some substances don't affect me the same way they do other people. For instance I smoked cigarettes off and on for years without ever getting addicted. Caffeine tends to make me drowsy.

I know that in ADHD, there is a chemical deficiency which is more or less supplemented by taking a stimulant, but I don't recall the details about how that actually works in the brain. I don't take medication, as I am really wary of doing something that specific to alter brain chemistry.

Well, to really go off on a tangent here...ADHD has a lot in common with autism/Asperger's and they are frequently comorbid. But there is also another subset of ADHD that is prone to psychopathy. I find this really puzzling, that ADHD can manifest in such different ways. I wonder about the differences in brain chemistry that are involved in this.

When I see people conforming to group pressures, group-think and hive mind behavior, I figure it is basically the survival instinct kicking in, but I forget that there is a chemical process behind it, a chemical reward. It really just seems foreign to me.

I understand the feeling that comes with getting approval, to an extent...for instance, when I get approval at work, when my supervisor compliments me, there's a sensation that it soothes the survival instinct. It assures me that the money I get from my job is still coming, and I will still be able to eat. But at the same time, I get another very distinct feeling of displeasure about it.

I work in sales, and I notice some of my co-workers are more competitive than others. They want to be first and they want to "win." You can see how much they enjoy it when they are called out for doing something well. Well I never feel that way about it. I hate it. I know for a fact, at least one of my co-workers dislikes it as much as I do. I suspect some of the others do as well.

I know that two of my co-workers were given an especially hard time by the last supervisor, to get their numbers up and so on. The supervisor was very unprofessional and rude about it to both of them, so this was way beyond just coaching them, much more along the lines of bullying.

One of those co-workers has definitely improved...by company standards anyhow...really, quite the transformation. Where she used to be just one of the group, and kind of average, now she is pushing herself to be the brightest and the best, bragging on herself more, and it is getting a little obnoxious.

Within the company culture, this is obviously supposed to be a great thing. But I think it is kind of sick. For one thing it's bad that the supervisor who mistreated her so much gets to think that he achieved something positive from it. Second, it's misleading that other people see what looks like a positive change, but don't realize that it was motivated by bullying. If I had "improved" as the result of such a situation, I would hate myself for it

My other co-worker had an almost totally opposite reaction to being mistreated that way...by losing motivation, losing confidence and basically not caring anymore. I totally understand, because I flip back and forth between wanting to do the job well, vs. shutting down and not wanting to do anything.

The one thing that shuts me down more than anything, is all the BS about friendly competition, the games and contests and talk about winning, and the perpetual circle jerk of emails about who did what. I am NOT motivated by that crap. It actually demotivates me, takes the wind out of my sails and makes me want to just go home for the day.

I've had two supervisors now, catch on to the fact that I couldn't care less if I win a contest, or be the first to do something, or have my name at the top of a list. But I don't think they comprehend how much it really turns me off to see this stuff going on, how distracting it is, or how much it makes me want to quit. I just want to focus on what I'm doing, not what other people are doing and how we all rank together.

In Gnosticism, this hijacking is known as Archontic intrusion, or infection.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vida_ ... hons02.htm
http://www.zaporacle.com/a-gnostic-view ... parasites/
http://bibliotecapleyades.lege.net/cien ... juan13.htm
http://www.metahistory.org/gnostique/ar ... eaming.php




Oops, what I meant to say was, I don't understand why a person would enjoy being on the receiving end of manipulation. I guess it's the same, there's a chemical reward.



And we also don't want to be the wolves going after the sheep.

That is interesting. I read through them but still don't feel 100% up to speed on gnostisism.
I have no problem following along with the metaphorical descriptions though.
I have read a few other writings about the matrix and the parallels to the movie.




Sociobiologists describe this as one of the functions of the primitive or reptile brain that causes "blind following of leaders". You can bet there is some chemical reward for this.



Right, I meant shepherd as the same position of a predator.

I don't feel like I am either. I've only picked up bits and pieces from various writers and speakers. It's ancient mystery school philosophy that isn't widely published or spoken about.

I have often thought this, but I never could put it into words. Thank you!