Not buying the "neurotype" thing.

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I understand, but wonder if it might not be possible that you selectively attend to messages that you disagree with and so, over time, develop a sense that those messages you don't agree with predominate.

I suspect that there are as many (or more) moderate positions being expressed as the extreme and disagreeable positions, but they don't register as strongly. This is a normal cognitive distortion that most people are subject to. Perhaps it is not so in your case, I only speculate based on my own experience.

There is a style of polemic that used to be widely know as "agit-prop" (for agitation-propaganda) that has emotional confrontation in the service of a political position as a goal. There are some examples of that style in the neurodiversity movement and these may be the ones you are reacting to.

I think if you read, for example, Steve Silberman's "Neurotribes" you will find a very different expression of manyof the same ideas. It may be that the more moderate voices collected in that book and elsewhere will strike you as less disagreeable and more engaging and you will find some middle ground in this.

I am glad you are finding WP more welcoming than you had feared. Overcoming fears is almost always a good thing.

Ok, sure. I'd be hesitant to say that "X was invented because someone was neurodivergent", but the possibility is there. This makes sense and I get what you're saying now.



That's all I'd ask for. So this is good to hear. Disagreement is fine, even beneficial. Being pilloried for expressing dissent not so much. So if the latter doesn't happen here, that's very good.



I'm glad I was able to clear that up. And yes, I think you're on to something with the second part I quoted there. When I'm discussing my issues with non-autistic people I'm able to frame the discussion, there's more lines of communication open, and they have less investment in it. That's not the case when I'm talking with other autistic folks and that can make things pretty dicey.



Oh, I think it's more than likely. In this particular case it's hard for me to get around the bias.



Thanks, it helps a lot. I'll look into that book, too!

I think there is a lot of wisdom in this. OP, it sounds like you have had some very negative experiences with some autistic people in the past and it has lead you to expect negativity in your interactions. As someone with social anxiety and C-PTSD due to past negative experiences with people I can relate to that--expecting and preparing for negativity seems like a rational response when you have encountered it so often in the past. But I think Adamantium is right that it can become a selection bias that is self-reinforcing, and it can be hard to break. I think coming here to discuss and explore this issue is a good step in the right direction for taking apart that bias and learning to recognise and enhance positive experiences. I hope we can be of some help. I may be getting too personal or harsh with this next bit, and please feel free to ignore my input if that is so, but it also sounds like you have learned to judge yourself pretty harshly and have taken to judging others with the same harshness, and this may be contributing to some of the negativity you are experiencing with autistic people. If you feel negatively about yourself being autistic and how it effects you, you may have a tendency to project that negativity and judgement onto others, which is itself another kind of bias. If you could learn to be less critical of yourself you might find yourself less prone to being judgmental of others. Practicing kindness to yourself and acceptance of your own limitations and flaws (because we all have them--autistic or not, disabled or not) can help you propagate that kindness and acceptance to others outside yourself dealing with their own limitations and flaws. When I say acceptance I don't mean giving up on trying to improve yourself or work on challenges you have--those are always important and laudable goals--but while you do that you have to be able to accept that no matter how hard we (everyone, not just autistic people) work on ourselves we will always be imperfect and have troubles. That's simply human nature and inescapable for everyone--that's why the kindness and acceptance are necessary in dealing with ourselves and dealing with others.

I am really glad this is turning out to be a really good thread. OP I am glad you are here. I am learning about some new ways of looking at all this and I really appreciate that.

As for me, I've been away from these forums for months because I feel I don't fit in.
Apparently, I'm too autistic to be accepted by "normal" people,
and too normal to be accepted by autistic people.
So I pretty much just have to get by on my own.
The question then becomes,
is just being yourself
a disability?
Even when there are also many good things about just being yourself?
And is it worth changing,
in order to fit in?

Well you ought to stick around anyway because even if you think you don't fit in with the majority there's always one or two who will surprise you.

I consider myself a neurodiversity advocate, though don't know much about the controversy talked about here. (Too busy with obsessions.) What it means to me is simply the observed fact that there is a great diversity of how people's brains are structured, resulting in constellations of behaviors like AS and other 'mental' conditions. In the not very distant past, people actually did not understand this and behavioral differences were routinely blamed on bad mothers, madness and the amorphous charges of "defective character", lack of will, godlessness, etc.

Neuroscience has helped us understand that brains are not the same, and brain structure controls perception, behavior and expression. Neurodiversity is the acceptance of this neurological variety and a letting go of the misinformed belief that people are the way they are due to choice, character flaw or innate superiority.

This definition of neurodiversity does not say anything about how things are for any individual. But if you are very different from normal in some way, life will always be harder (I think). It is up to each person to determine their own capacities and seek support and help where they need it, and no one should be ashamed of their lack of ability in any area.

It doesn't matter to me if you don't 'buy into' neurodiversity as a concept. Personally, I welcome you to the discussion here.

Last edited by emtyeye on 31 Oct 2015, 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thank you very much, babybird!

I do judge myself very harshly. It's rarely directed at autism, it's always focused on my own choices. I'll easily lose sight of how autism might impact those choices and get very upset at the thought of it, because that would require me to accept these flaws and limitations we're talking about to a greater degree. It feels like going from "this is very difficult" to "this is impossible; give up". It's been so much easier for me to think of it as a demon I wrestle with. Or to not think of it at all.

I don't feel bad about having autism. There's no shame, self-pity or guilt associated with. I feel bad about things I've tried and failed to do because I have to deal with it. Those are things I have control over; I just don't always have a realistic idea of how much control I actually have.




Thanks, me too.



I bet you could start a whole thread just about that question. I'm down for that.

Me? I'll change myself in some ways, and not in others. I think it depends on your values. Some things I have changed to fit in are things I now like about myself.



First off, thank you.

All of that's fine with me; I'll admit to being suspicious of neuroscience because of how it's been abused for political ends and how difficult it is to draw conclusions from results. But there are clearly neurological differences between people. I would not argue that claim at all. Nor would I dismiss the idea that these differences can manifest themselves in different behavior patterns.

It's when people start talking about what ought to be done about this that I hit a snag with some people. When we get beyond the idea of “this exists” and into the realm of “this exists, therefore we should do X and not Y” I've often come out the other side worse than I came in. I often feel like people are trying to speak for me without my consent.

Just to add some of my own thoughts to the original topic here, which I find interesting, well, for me, this quoted bit is a good example of why I tend to consider autism to often be a "difference" instead of always being a problem.

In my case, social interaction is not of paramount... anything. As a rule, I just... really dont care. At all. Like, I just cant be bothered, and am not interested. Most conversation that I witness is bloody meaningless, inane, stupid, or just boring, so my view has always been: Why should I care? And I'm not going to try to pretend that I enjoy any of it just to fit in (which I also seriously dont care about, and in fact actively try to AVOID... if I ever start to fit in, someone needs to yell at me until I realize it and can stop). Even if for some baffling reason I did want to fit in, I wouldnt want to do it by being "fake", and participating in small talk and all that other crap that alot of normal people do. Even in "normal" conversations among "normal" people, if you watch closely enough, you can SEE the disinterest alot of them have in what's being talked about, but those things are talked about only because it's basically part of the ritual. Even if you dont give a flying fart about some movie or other that's popular right now, it may be a required part of the conversation at hand, because "everyone talks about movies". So sometimes, as part of being normal, you fake it. Not always, but sometimes. And I just... cant do that. I very genuinely dont see the purpose, and I dont see what in the world I would get out of it except massive boredom. And why would I want to "fit in" when THAT is the result? As such... yeah, I just dont care. I have a couple of friends, and of course my family, but I still keep to myself most of the time, and I dont bother trying to hide my feelings when I'm not feeling talkative or just dont care about something. Can cause a bit of friction, but I prefer to be honest, so.... that's how it goes.

All of this is an example of the subjectiveness of the whole thing. It's not lazy or "defeatist" of me to not try to fit in if I genuinely dont want to, or genuinely think it'd actually be a NEGATIVE thing (which I do). So to me... it's nothing but a difference in that case.

Now that's not to say that autism doesnt bring some problems, because it can. But it can often balance that out a bit with benefits as well, and some aspects arent really either, but are just neutral... "differences", again.

In the end, it's really just dependent on the individual, I think. People may disagree with what you say, but I dont think that "lazy" or whatever is the usual reason. In my encounters with other autistics, one thing I've tended to notice/perceive is that many of them are very honest/open about most things. If they state they feel a particular way about something, they really do. As opposed to just saying it out of laziness or a need to hide from a problem.

So.... yeah. I dunno. Just my own thoughts on the issue, as I've heard this brought up a few times in various places. It's interesting though to see what some of the people here think of it.