Why did my therapist act like Captain Obvious, and not help?
24 Aug 2016, 1:27 pm
Aspie1 wrote:
YippySkippy wrote:
It's a very well-known therapist technique. It's supposed to make the patient feel heard and understood, so that they'll relax and speak even more openly. That, in turn, will (hopefully) allow the therapist to discover the deeper source of their problems.
How is this supposed to work for NTs? I mean, just consider...Patient: "My family puts me down frequently."
Therapist: "You feel bad when they do that."
Patient: "Yeah, and?"
Therapist: ...
What's the "correct" NT way to react to these "empathetic statements"? What do I say to keep the conversation flow? I'm pretty sure it's not "Yeah, and?". How would an NT patient respond to "empathetic statements"? NT members, I realize you catch a lot of heat on this forum, but your opinion will be very welcome here.
Maybe just keep on talking about their family and ignore what the therapist said. That is how I would have responded. But then again I don't know either what is the "correct" way to respond or an NT way.
androbot01 wrote:
Psychotherapy is a complete waste of time. It's left over from a time before they had the biochemical knowledge we have now. Save your money.
I think I very much agree. I remember seeing a psychiatrist (male) as an adult. Here's how it panned out.Aspie1: "My boss treats me badly and verbally abuses me. I'm experiencing this and that."
Doctor: "That's anxiety. And your boss is a moron. I will prescribe you medication."
Aspie1: "Thank you."
Doctor: "Good luck on your recovery."
Simple. Honest. Straightforward. No platitudes. No ridiculous suggestions. I'm very glad I'm an adult, and get to take the "good stuff", as opposed to relying on ineffective "natural" techniques. I started taking the medication, and after the first dose kicked in, I immediately felt better. Better than from alcohol, even.[/quote]
So you were having anxiety from your boss's abuse so now you have to get drugged for it so you can deal with it better. Sadly that is how society is. People even have to take pills for depression even though their depression us caused by their environment than having clinical depression. I am not saying it's a bad thing but part of me thinks it's ridiculous it has to be this way.
_________________
Son: Diagnosed w/anxiety and ADHD. Also academic delayed and ASD lv 1.
Daughter: NT, no diagnoses. Possibly OCD. Is very private about herself.
24 Aug 2016, 1:41 pm
underwater wrote:
Aspie1 wrote:
I think I very much agree. I remember seeing a psychiatrist (male) as an adult. Here's how it panned out.
Aspie1: "My boss treats me badly and verbally abuses me. I'm experiencing this and that."
Doctor: "That's anxiety. And your boss is a moron. I will prescribe you medication."
Aspie1: "Thank you."
Doctor: "Good luck on your recovery."
Simple. Honest. Straightforward. No platitudes. No ridiculous suggestions. I'm very glad I'm an adult, and get to take the "good stuff", as opposed to relying on ineffective "natural" techniques. I started taking the medication, and after the first dose kicked in, I immediately felt better. Better than from alcohol, even.
Aspie1: "My boss treats me badly and verbally abuses me. I'm experiencing this and that."
Doctor: "That's anxiety. And your boss is a moron. I will prescribe you medication."
Aspie1: "Thank you."
Doctor: "Good luck on your recovery."
Simple. Honest. Straightforward. No platitudes. No ridiculous suggestions. I'm very glad I'm an adult, and get to take the "good stuff", as opposed to relying on ineffective "natural" techniques. I started taking the medication, and after the first dose kicked in, I immediately felt better. Better than from alcohol, even.
Ok.....I'm feeling a bit stupid here. How exactly did the medication help you? Did you change jobs, or did the medication help you to not feel bad about the abuse ? If so, is there a point where you can stop taking the medication?
Assuming that the medication didn't have terrible side effects, and he didn't experience things like sunburn, heart attack, erectile dysfunction, and death; which are rare-ish to be sure but possible, I'm assuming this writer went right along with his life as it was before, taking no note that his body was giving him signs that something is wrong. Probably did nothing about his relationship with his boss - why bother when you can just take chemicals to make you feel like its not a problem! And when, in a few years time, he develops an even more painful condition because of all the factors he's been ignoring for so long, isn't really likely to make the connection between that and medicating away his feelings.
He's actually in good company. That's the way we do things in the US these days. Life is becoming harder and harder for people, but instead of improving our quality of life, we develop new drugs so we can keep working, no matter how bad it gets.
24 Aug 2016, 1:50 pm
Maybe, and this is a stretch, your therapist is helping by making you think bout what you say. I often repeat information to people when I want them to hear what they have to say. It's a way to get them to think about what they say. Hearing it being deciphered by someone else, should give you a critical analysis of the situation.
24 Aug 2016, 2:00 pm
somanyspoons wrote:
underwater wrote:
Aspie1 wrote:
I think I very much agree. I remember seeing a psychiatrist (male) as an adult. Here's how it panned out.
Aspie1: "My boss treats me badly and verbally abuses me. I'm experiencing this and that."
Doctor: "That's anxiety. And your boss is a moron. I will prescribe you medication."
Aspie1: "Thank you."
Doctor: "Good luck on your recovery."
Simple. Honest. Straightforward. No platitudes. No ridiculous suggestions. I'm very glad I'm an adult, and get to take the "good stuff", as opposed to relying on ineffective "natural" techniques. I started taking the medication, and after the first dose kicked in, I immediately felt better. Better than from alcohol, even.
Aspie1: "My boss treats me badly and verbally abuses me. I'm experiencing this and that."
Doctor: "That's anxiety. And your boss is a moron. I will prescribe you medication."
Aspie1: "Thank you."
Doctor: "Good luck on your recovery."
Simple. Honest. Straightforward. No platitudes. No ridiculous suggestions. I'm very glad I'm an adult, and get to take the "good stuff", as opposed to relying on ineffective "natural" techniques. I started taking the medication, and after the first dose kicked in, I immediately felt better. Better than from alcohol, even.
Ok.....I'm feeling a bit stupid here. How exactly did the medication help you? Did you change jobs, or did the medication help you to not feel bad about the abuse ? If so, is there a point where you can stop taking the medication?
Assuming that the medication didn't have terrible side effects, and he didn't experience things like sunburn, heart attack, erectile dysfunction, and death; which are rare-ish to be sure but possible, I'm assuming this writer went right along with his life as it was before, taking no note that his body was giving him signs that something is wrong. Probably did nothing about his relationship with his boss - why bother when you can just take chemicals to make you feel like its not a problem! And when, in a few years time, he develops an even more painful condition because of all the factors he's been ignoring for so long, isn't really likely to make the connection between that and medicating away his feelings.
He's actually in good company. That's the way we do things in the US these days. Life is becoming harder and harder for people, but instead of improving our quality of life, we develop new drugs so we can keep working, no matter how bad it gets.
Not just in the US, it's happening elsewhere too - although perhaps not on quite the same scale. All that medication does in such cases is induce a very expensive state of denial, and the underlying (or perhaps not so underlying) problem just gets kicked down the road. It could almost be compared to what's sometimes called 'retail therapy': spend money and your problems will go away. Except they don't. They just keep growing and getting worse, until medication doesn't work anymore - by which time therapy might not work either.
There's a sound medical case for therapy and medication, used in a timely and intelligent way, sometimes together, sometimes separately.
24 Aug 2016, 2:02 pm
somanyspoons wrote:
I'm assuming this writer went right along with his life as it was before, taking no note that his body was giving him signs that something is wrong. Probably did nothing about his relationship with his boss - why bother when you can just take chemicals to make you feel like its not a problem!
Har-har! Classic talk therapists would do absolutely nothing to help improve my relationship with my boss. He/she would just say: "You feel overwhelmed when you boss gives you unattainable work and yells at you." "My sincerest thank you, Captain Obvious." At least with anti-anxiety pills, I could still work and have my income without being destroyed every day. Otherwise, it's like sending a firefighter into a burning building without an oxygen mask.Oh, and my boss was fired after I took legal action against the company, using my doctor's prescription as evidence. The CIO was reprimanded. I kept my job, until I found a new one, in a much friendlier environment.
24 Aug 2016, 2:13 pm
My therapist was actually wanting to help me by getting me to change my ways so people would treat me nicer. He was saying I wasn't reading social cues and stuff and I wasn't following the social rules and to this day I am not even sure if he was making that assumption based on my diagnoses or if that is what was actually going on so he was willing to give me a hand.
There are people out there who are in situations they have no control over but they still go to a therapist to talk about it to get it off their chest and all they do is listen to their rants. But not everyone wants that and they just want a solution to their problem such as pills for example or they think the therapist can help them change the other person or change how other people treat them. But for all I know they can just say "Go find a new work environment, start looking for another job because the job you are at right now is toxic." Then the patient goes "Oh why didn't I ever think of that, thank you for your advice, I will try just that." Then later after switching jobs, "my work has been great now everyone is treating me with dignity and respect, you have helped me out here, thank you." Then that is their last session because boom their issue is over unless they are still dwelling on the past.
_________________
Son: Diagnosed w/anxiety and ADHD. Also academic delayed and ASD lv 1.
Daughter: NT, no diagnoses. Possibly OCD. Is very private about herself.
24 Aug 2016, 2:31 pm
Aspie1 wrote:
When I was in early high school, I was seeing a therapist. For a point of reference, she's the same person who grilled me about feelings. At multiple points, I shared my family difficulties with her. Those consisted of my parents yelling at me, my parents expecting nothing but perfect grades, my parents putting me down, my grandparents and older sister never siding with me, and my little niece upstaging and overriding my wishes. Needless to say, it was a very miserable time I was having, and would have loved to have some moral support and guidance.
But every time I shared something with my therapist---and hoped to get that moral support and guidance---she came back with what I call "Captain Obvious responses". For example:
* "You feel put down because your father called you a little baby."
* "You feel ignored when your mother refused to play a board game with you."
* "You feel lonely when nobody in your family takes your side."
* "You feel unloved and abandoned when your parents take your niece's side."
* Etc.
WHY!! ! ! ! !? Why would my therapist talk like Captain Obvious, and not offer an iota of helpful tips? I get it, it's not her job to teach me verbal self-defense. (Or is it?) But I don't know, maybe a suggestion on keeping my dignity in the family would've helped. At least something! These responses pretty much made me lose all trust in her, and I haven't shared any personal/family difficulties with her pretty much ever since. Instead, I ended up fabricating non-existent issues, like anxiety over tests, and asking for help with those. That, and talk about the science stuff I learned in school, since I liked science at the time. It was nice, since nobody else really wanted to listen to me.
I'm wondering at this point if it's a male/female dichotomy, rather than an aspie/NT dichotomy. Which was also an untended benefit for me. I remember trying the "Captain Obvious" tactic with my past girlfriend a few years ago (who emotionally abused me frequently), and she loved it. Ditto for the 22-year-old female friend I like, but choose not to pursue a relationship with her, since I'm terrified of LTR's and don't want to hurt her. But maybe it's because I'm an aspie, and my therapist was NT.
Thoughts? Anyone else had unnerving experiences in therapy like mine?
But every time I shared something with my therapist---and hoped to get that moral support and guidance---she came back with what I call "Captain Obvious responses". For example:
* "You feel put down because your father called you a little baby."
* "You feel ignored when your mother refused to play a board game with you."
* "You feel lonely when nobody in your family takes your side."
* "You feel unloved and abandoned when your parents take your niece's side."
* Etc.
WHY!! ! ! ! !? Why would my therapist talk like Captain Obvious, and not offer an iota of helpful tips? I get it, it's not her job to teach me verbal self-defense. (Or is it?) But I don't know, maybe a suggestion on keeping my dignity in the family would've helped. At least something! These responses pretty much made me lose all trust in her, and I haven't shared any personal/family difficulties with her pretty much ever since. Instead, I ended up fabricating non-existent issues, like anxiety over tests, and asking for help with those. That, and talk about the science stuff I learned in school, since I liked science at the time. It was nice, since nobody else really wanted to listen to me.
I'm wondering at this point if it's a male/female dichotomy, rather than an aspie/NT dichotomy. Which was also an untended benefit for me. I remember trying the "Captain Obvious" tactic with my past girlfriend a few years ago (who emotionally abused me frequently), and she loved it. Ditto for the 22-year-old female friend I like, but choose not to pursue a relationship with her, since I'm terrified of LTR's and don't want to hurt her. But maybe it's because I'm an aspie, and my therapist was NT.
Thoughts? Anyone else had unnerving experiences in therapy like mine?
Reminded me of this comedy sketch:
https://soundcloud.com/eljayar/john-finnemore-therapist
A good, suitable, therapist will chime with and complement their client. They need to get to know their client, to understand their client's character and dispositions.
What you call 'captain obvious' can have some theraputic worth for someone who can't see the patterns of behaviour and subsequent outcomes in their life. Connecting the dots, to see the picture. It doesn't seem you had this difficulty.
It can also be a form of empathetic clarity. Have you ever written out a problem, or crappy situation, then read it back to yourself and suddenly found that the whole thing, and any solutions, become much clearer? 'Captain obvious' can be like that for some people, can provide an 'externalisation'. Having someone state back to you what you've said can force you to really understand the situation. Of course, at this point it helps to look to solutions, and if she didn't do this then restating your problems can just start to feel like rubbing salt in one's wound.
Of the people - women and men - I've known, the only one I could see employing or appreciating the 'captain obvious' technique is my sister, who I strongly suspect is also autistic.
There are many kinds of therapists, and they each have their own approaches. I think therapy can be incredibly beneficial, but both parties have to be serious about it, and clear about what they can offer (therapist) and what they want (client). It sounds like this one was a mismatch with you. Who put you forward to see her?
_________________
Of course, it's probably quite a bit more complicated than that.
You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.
androbot01
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Joined: 17 Sep 2014
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,746
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada
24 Aug 2016, 2:58 pm
Some people think that you should just feel the pain and suck it up because it's "real." And pills are an easy escape. I obviously disagree. Medication is not an easy escape and it is not a cure all. It is an effective tool, not an easier path. Sometimes it's the only tool. CBT has it's uses and offers good thinking strategies for everyone. But psychoanalysis is a total waste of time. If I were to break my leg tripping over my cat, it would not be useful to keep going over the incident; someone setting the bone and providing pain killers would be helpful.
24 Aug 2016, 3:26 pm
androbot01 wrote:
Some people think that you should just feel the pain and suck it up because it's "real." And pills are an easy escape. I obviously disagree. Medication is not an easy escape and it is not a cure all. It is an effective tool, not an easier path. Sometimes it's the only tool.
I agree with this. I am generally in favour of whatever works, but notions of 'works' can often be wider than the immediate problem.
And as evidenced by Aspie1's problems with his boss, it's 'easier' to stick him on some pills than try and sort out a work culture that was making himneed them in the first place. Rather than looking at the conditions that made Aspie1 anxious, there is instead an idea that we can just locate and isolate a thing called 'anxiety' in Aspie1's brain and give him some pills to make him feel better.
Quote:
CBT has it's uses and offers good thinking strategies for everyone. But psychoanalysis is a total waste of time. If I were to break my leg tripping over my cat, it would not be useful to keep going over the incident; someone setting the bone and providing pain killers would be helpful.
Here I disagree.
I have found CBT quite useless. I sought out an assessment for Asperger's as part of a wider experience of emotional distress, and a sense of certain lifelong issues. I saw a man who had originally trained as a psychotherapist who now worked with CBT, and after two meetings he (very professionally) passed me over, saying he would try and find me someone who still worked with psychotherapy.
I've found certain psychoanalytic and psychotherapeutic ideas very helpful. To carry your analogy, if you were constantly tripping over your cat and often breaking your leg, if you were behaving in such a way that it seemed even to you that you were seeking out the cat in order to trip over it, it might be fruitful to consider why.
I like asking 'why'. In CBT things just is, and I'm not very good at accepting that things just are. But I would not begrudge for a moment anyone who found it helpful or useful. As I said, I'm primarily interested in what works for people.
_________________
Of course, it's probably quite a bit more complicated than that.
You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.
24 Aug 2016, 3:58 pm
Hopper wrote:
And as evidenced by Aspie1's problems with his boss, it's 'easier' to stick him on some pills than try and sort out a work culture that was making himneed them in the first place. Rather than looking at the conditions that made Aspie1 anxious, there is instead an idea that we can just locate and isolate a thing called 'anxiety' in Aspie1's brain and give him some pills to make him feel better.
Sometimes, you want to understand the root cause of the problem, look within yourself, solve the problem, be the change you wish to see in the world, and learn about the [insert New Age term] of the Universe (sarcastic capitalization). That's all well and good, if your job is easy and your family treats you nicely.Conversely, there are times you simply don't care! The problem is clobbering you so hard, that you don't want to hassle with anything on a large time scale. You just want the bad feeling bothering you to go away and not return. And you want it to happen now. Spiritual, long-term stuff can come later, when your problem is resolved.
In the second case, what'll you take: nauseating talk therapy about feelings, or strong medicine that relaxes you?
24 Aug 2016, 4:11 pm
I've run into something that is related to CBT, but not quite it. I forget what it was called, but it consisted of trying to identify false and/or unhelpful beliefs that govern how you interpret situations and how you think of yourself. Among other things, I was given descriptions of different dysfunctional mindsets, and I had to talk about which ones applied to me and to what extent. That was actually quite useful.
_________________
I sometimes leave conversations and return after a long time. I am sorry about it, but I need a lot of time to think about it when I am not sure how I feel.
androbot01
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Joined: 17 Sep 2014
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,746
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada
24 Aug 2016, 4:17 pm
Hopper wrote:
And as evidenced by Aspie1's problems with his boss, it's 'easier' to stick him on some pills than try and sort out a work culture that was making himneed them in the first place. Rather than looking at the conditions that made Aspie1 anxious, there is instead an idea that we can just locate and isolate a thing called 'anxiety' in Aspie1's brain and give him some pills to make him feel better.
I don't want to use Aspie1 as an example, so I won't.
I would say that anxiety causing situations are more the norm than not. So the anxiety is likely to travel from one workplace to the next.
Hopper wrote:
To carry your analogy, if you were constantly tripping over your cat and often breaking your leg, if you were behaving in such a way that it seemed even to you that you were seeking out the cat in order to trip over it, it might be fruitful to consider why.
I am hearing you say that people cause their own depression. Is this correct?
24 Aug 2016, 4:26 pm
Aspie1 wrote:
Hopper wrote:
And as evidenced by Aspie1's problems with his boss, it's 'easier' to stick him on some pills than try and sort out a work culture that was making himneed them in the first place. Rather than looking at the conditions that made Aspie1 anxious, there is instead an idea that we can just locate and isolate a thing called 'anxiety' in Aspie1's brain and give him some pills to make him feel better.
Sometimes, you want to understand the root cause of the problem, look within yourself, solve the problem, be the change you wish to see in the world, and learn about the [insert New Age term] of the Universe (sarcastic capitalization). That's all well and good, as long as you have an easy job and a family that respects you.
There are also times you simply don't care! The problem is clobbering you so hard, that you have don't want to bother with anything on a large time scale. You just want the bad feeling bothering you to go away and not return. And you want it to happen now. Spiritual, large-scale stuff can come later.
In the second case, what'll you take: nauseating talk therapy about feelings, or strong medicine that relaxes you?
I didn't mention anything to do with spirituality or feelings. If anything, I would consider your (and many others') increased anxiety at work a socio-political matter, with solutions to be found in that area. No need for 'nauseating' (fascinating word choice, there) conversations about feelings, or to ponder on 'spiritual stuff'.
I like thinking, and talking about thinking. I like talking about experiences and perspectives, and analysing them. I find a lot of sense in therapy/analysis that leans on ideas of narrative and meaning, so this is what works for me, what solved a fair few of my issues that bugged me for a long time. Not once did I talk about my feelings (I do not think it reasoned or sensible or feasible to be as dismissive of them as you are, but I struggle withunderstanding them all the same and find thinking much more bearable). Not once have I pondered on some Great Spiritual Truth (such an idea is anathema to me).
As to your question: neither. I would sooner have the talk, push comes to shove, but I'd quickly be taking an analytical, intellectual approach, which misses the point of such things - that's not really where the work is. I have an aversion to anything that fiddles with my brain. Be it psychiactric drugs, or alcohol or street drugs. But mostly, I think. I think and I think and I think. That's what relaxes me.
_________________
Of course, it's probably quite a bit more complicated than that.
You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.
24 Aug 2016, 4:43 pm
Hopper wrote:
Not once did I talk about my feelings (I do not think it reasoned or sensible or feasible to be as dismissive of them as you are, but I struggle withunderstanding them all the same and find thinking much more bearable). Not once have I pondered on some Great Spiritual Truth (such an idea is anathema to me).
As to your question: neither. I would sooner have the talk, push comes to shove, but I'd quickly be taking an analytical, intellectual approach, which misses the point of such things - that's not really where the work is. I have an aversion to anything that fiddles with my brain.
Fair enough. My apologies for misunderstanding your posts.As to your question: neither. I would sooner have the talk, push comes to shove, but I'd quickly be taking an analytical, intellectual approach, which misses the point of such things - that's not really where the work is. I have an aversion to anything that fiddles with my brain.
I still stand by my beliefs. When I already know what's troubling me, discussing it will be minimally helpful. "Empathizing", even less so. I want get rid of what's bothering me. If not that, mask it into invisibility. Let's go back to my family mistreating me. Consider how moving out was impossible at age 12, running away from home was illegal and dangerous, and my therapist refused to get me antidepressants. So why else would I have turned to alcohol? Because one swig of whiskey achieved what many therapy sessions failed to do! I got to experience a moment of joy that I haven't felt in months.
When alcohol works better on a 12-year-old than therapy, something isn't right! So how do you help an aspie kid like me?
Last edited by Aspie1 on 24 Aug 2016, 5:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
24 Aug 2016, 5:01 pm
androbot01 wrote:
Hopper wrote:
And as evidenced by Aspie1's problems with his boss, it's 'easier' to stick him on some pills than try and sort out a work culture that was making himneed them in the first place. Rather than looking at the conditions that made Aspie1 anxious, there is instead an idea that we can just locate and isolate a thing called 'anxiety' in Aspie1's brain and give him some pills to make him feel better.
I don't want to use Aspie1 as an example, so I won't.
I would say that anxiety causing situations are more the norm than not. So the anxiety is likely to travel from one workplace to the next.
I was talking about social/political/economic factors which I do not have the alertness to run with right now. I was suggesting looking to systemic causes, rather than isolating it as something going funny in someone's brain.
Quote:
Hopper wrote:
To carry your analogy, if you were constantly tripping over your cat and often breaking your leg, if you were behaving in such a way that it seemed even to you that you were seeking out the cat in order to trip over it, it might be fruitful to consider why.
I am hearing you say that people cause their own depression. Is this correct?
That is not correct. I did not realise you were using your cat-trip-break-leg analogy as one for depression.
I was talking more about self-defeating behaviour patterns. Self-sabotage in relationships, perhaps, or unwanted reactions to a given situation that one finds hard to control.
Such patterns or reactions are often set early on in life, based on what we take to be implicit truths about human relationships, and experiences that can leave a traumatic or phobic imprint.
_________________
Of course, it's probably quite a bit more complicated than that.
You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.
androbot01
Veteran
Joined: 17 Sep 2014
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,746
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada
24 Aug 2016, 5:39 pm
Hopper wrote:
I was talking about social/political/economic factors which I do not have the alertness to run with right now. I was suggesting looking to systemic causes, rather than isolating it as something going funny in someone's brain.
Damn it. I am constantly getting into interesting discussions with people in different time zones. I would mention though that if you find the use of the word nauseating fascinating, I find your use of the word funny just as much so.
Hopper wrote:
I was talking more about self-defeating behaviour patterns. Self-sabotage in relationships, perhaps, or unwanted reactions to a given situation that one finds hard to control.
You are assuming that it is the case that these behaviour patterns arise from patterns learned in early life, but I would say the egg came first, mental illnesses do not magically appear at age 18. Often young people are suffering from depression, autism (obviously,) and anxiety. And this is why they develop self-defeating behaviour.
Hopper wrote:
Such patterns or reactions are often set early on in life, based on what we take to be implicit truths about human relationships, and experiences that can leave a traumatic or phobic imprint.
Sure they can. But why is talking about them supposed to make it any better. The mind can be physically injured by psychological trauma.
