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KingdomOfRats
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19 Sep 2007, 8:14 am

Fraya wrote:
Ok.. skimming past the temper tantrums (guys Im a bit disappointed that ya'll let it escalate like that) I think that hikikomori is more a social phobia than an autistic issue.

Lets work this through: the Japanese social realm is very structured and organized especially in the business world which makes it much more tolerable for autistics who's capabilities are considered valuable even if their eccentricities are less tolerated if they disrupt the status quo (its a very ethnocentric society as well).

Also as another has stated already, hikikomori are most commonly considered normal people who, after a traumatic event or massive failure (which is not taken well.. its a highly competitive and judgmental society) suddenly cannot bear to leave the safety of their home.

While being a hikikomori is obviously the result of a debilitating mental condition and I'm sure some of those who have become hermits like that are on the spectrum I believe its more commonly the result of the acute onset of post traumatic stress disorder, social anxiety disorder, a massive (and traumatic) loss of self esteem or any combination thereof.

agree,they call it "accute social withdrawal" ,that means they must have been 'normally' socialising,or close to it before the problems started,with autism,it's developmental,and to be classed as autism specific,traits do not start in the teenage/adult years.



Zeno
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19 Sep 2007, 8:55 am

In the book "Shutting Out the Sun", Hikkikomori is portrayed more as a social condition or at least a symptom of a dysfunctional society. The author does not claim that Japanese people who withdraw from society are autistic. Nor would it be true to say that Aspies shy from social contact. Most Aspies are out there doing things and trying to get on with their lives. The problem for Aspies is not in failing to engage, but the failure in the engagement. We mix, we match and some how the nodes do not connect. Such failures are the ingredients of the interminable angst of the Aspie stew.



UncleBeer
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19 Sep 2007, 9:37 am

Zeno wrote:
We mix, we match and some how the nodes do not connect. Such failures are the ingredients of the interminable angst of the Aspie stew.

That's a very tastily written phrase. However, not all Aspies suffer from 'angst'. Some of us are content just the way we are. :)



Zeno
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19 Sep 2007, 6:35 pm

UncleBeer wrote:
Zeno wrote:
We mix, we match and some how the nodes do not connect. Such failures are the ingredients of the interminable angst of the Aspie stew.

That's a very tastily written phrase. However, not all Aspies suffer from 'angst'. Some of us are content just the way we are. :)


It would seem anomalous to speak of a happy Aspie. That might even be something of an oxymoron. But contentment, or at least acceptance, is achievable. However, like the proverbial duck, the calm exterior belies native storms that rage unseen though painfully felt.

To return to the topic of Hikikomoris, there is a significant difference between the Aspie and these modern day Japanese hermits. Is there anyone on this board who does not leave his/her room? Even though I almost never talk, I am deeply engaged in the world, albeit in my own way. I have failed many, many times in my life but unlike these Hikikomoris, I do not feel ashamed and hide my face from others. Acceptance of my life actually stems from a deep consciousness of my difference; an understanding that has been with me from the deepest recesses of my memory. From early childhood I knew that I was different.



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19 Sep 2007, 7:53 pm

SynDiesel wrote:
the economic crash of the 90's caused a presentation of autistic symptoms.
first of all let me say i love japan and their culture. :) second, a economic crash isnt going to cause people to be aspergers.


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marshall
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19 Sep 2007, 9:45 pm

Don't you think it might have to do with parents being both over protective and critical of their children? This is common in Asian culture. Seems like that could stifle a kid's desire to grow up and become independent. Also, people can become withdrawn out of shame which doesn't have anything to do with autism. Has much more to do with depression.



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20 Sep 2007, 12:56 am

Zeno wrote:
UncleBeer wrote:
Zeno wrote:
We mix, we match and some how the nodes do not connect. Such failures are the ingredients of the interminable angst of the Aspie stew.

That's a very tastily written phrase. However, not all Aspies suffer from 'angst'. Some of us are content just the way we are. :)

It would seem anomalous to speak of a happy Aspie. That might even be something of an oxymoron.

Really? Is "unhappiness" part of the diagnostic criteria? 8O

If that's how it is for you, you have my sympathy.



laplantain
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20 Sep 2007, 1:20 am

Since my husband and I are 100% Japanese, I feel compelled to reply to this post.

There are many cases of sensory problems/aspieness on both sides of my family as well as both sides of my husband's families. I am not sure if it is caused by the culture, or if the culture was created to accommodate the people who had these issues. But I have always said that Japan is the ideal place for an aspie. It is rude to speak loudly or make direct eye contact, there is a protocol for daily social interactions, even the language seems to be aspie-friendly. So aspies can pretty much go through life undetected, so to speak.

We both have one cousin each who has had autistic children, and there are about 4 children who have developmental delays. There are several adults who have sensory problems that affected their lifestyles- although they still maintain jobs, they either have not married or have very abbreviated social lives.

I feel very badly for my cousin's children in Japan because they fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum and are not receiving any services. Basically, my cousin does everything she can to try to mask their behavior. They go to regular classes. When her daughter rocks or flaps her hands, she stands behind her and holds her arms down, and she tells her what to say when people speak to her. Because her son is like Rainman and so great at remembering stats, the school simply found a job for him to do. He remembers and keeps track of all the stats for all the school's sports teams and players. One thing that is great in Japan is that they find jobs for everyone to do. They have people working at gas stations, wearing uniforms and waving people in and things like that. So he'll probably end up working for a company remembering stats in some capacity. So if he lost his job because of the economy, I can totally see how he would become a recluse.

So anyway, I think there is a definite aspie connection.



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20 Sep 2007, 3:30 am

Interesting topic. I don't think Hikkikomori is the same as ASD. ASD is a developmental disorder one is born with. Hikkikomori seems more a reaction to a situation by someone who was not born with developmental problems.

A lot of Asian culture is different than Western culture which preaches staring at people and being overly social. Japanese society is overwhelmed with work and school demands unlike anything in the US. People work 12+ hrs a day and are suppose to devote their lives to their employer. They have huge pressure even in elementary school years to perform at optimum levels. The country is landlocked and over crowded; people are FORCED to live like sardines with multiple generations in one tiny apartment.

So with every day life such as that you will start seeing otherwise normal NT people pulling away because everyone likes some quiet time to sit and think. Even NT's can get overwhelmed by constant demands on them and being forced to rub elbows with others all day. Hikkikomori is more a cultural response to a bad situation.



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20 Sep 2007, 4:32 am

Zeno wrote:
To return to the topic of Hikikomoris, there is a significant difference between the Aspie and these modern day Japanese hermits. Is there anyone on this board who does not leave his/her room?


As far as I know, only about 10 % of hikikomoris uses the Internet and even less percent of them joins discussions on forums, electronic mailing lists or chats. I spend most of my time in my room (what doesn't means that I don't leave it :) ) and I leave my flat only when I've a reason; when I go to school, to borrow some books from library (relatively rarely because when I want to read a book which I don't have on my shelf, I download it from the Internet) or when I've my teacher practice (two times a week) or to see my dentist or hairdresser.



Zeno
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20 Sep 2007, 7:20 am

UncleBeer wrote:
Really? Is "unhappiness" part of the diagnostic criteria? 8O

If that's how it is for you, you have my sympathy.


If it comes as a surprise to you that many, if not most, Aspies are unhappy, then it is I who feel for you. I am going to be kind and think of you as a victim of the feel good movement. Or perhaps this is not really you talking, it is just the prozac. But as a parting gift let me just impart some wisdom to you -- being an Aspie does not give you a licence to be an a**hole.



UncleBeer
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20 Sep 2007, 7:27 am

Zeno wrote:
UncleBeer wrote:
Really? Is "unhappiness" part of the diagnostic criteria? 8O

If that's how it is for you, you have my sympathy.


If it comes as a surprise to you that many, if not most, Aspies are unhappy, then it is I who feel for you. I am going to be kind and think of you as a victim of the feel good movement. Or perhaps this is not really you talking, it is just the prozac. But as a parting gift let me just impart some wisdom to you -- being an Aspie does not give you a licence to be an a**hole.

Happy = a**hole? That's real wisdom you got there, bucko. :roll:



Zeno
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20 Sep 2007, 7:39 am

laplantain wrote:
Since my husband and I are 100% Japanese, I feel compelled to reply to this post.

There are many cases of sensory problems/aspieness on both sides of my family as well as both sides of my husband's families. I am not sure if it is caused by the culture, or if the culture was created to accommodate the people who had these issues. But I have always said that Japan is the ideal place for an aspie. It is rude to speak loudly or make direct eye contact, there is a protocol for daily social interactions, even the language seems to be aspie-friendly. So aspies can pretty much go through life undetected, so to speak.

We both have one cousin each who has had autistic children, and there are about 4 children who have developmental delays. There are several adults who have sensory problems that affected their lifestyles- although they still maintain jobs, they either have not married or have very abbreviated social lives.

I feel very badly for my cousin's children in Japan because they fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum and are not receiving any services. Basically, my cousin does everything she can to try to mask their behavior. They go to regular classes. When her daughter rocks or flaps her hands, she stands behind her and holds her arms down, and she tells her what to say when people speak to her. Because her son is like Rainman and so great at remembering stats, the school simply found a job for him to do. He remembers and keeps track of all the stats for all the school's sports teams and players. One thing that is great in Japan is that they find jobs for everyone to do. They have people working at gas stations, wearing uniforms and waving people in and things like that. So he'll probably end up working for a company remembering stats in some capacity. So if he lost his job because of the economy, I can totally see how he would become a recluse.

So anyway, I think there is a definite aspie connection.


Interesting observations. You make the point that Japan is very much a rule oriented society and that as it is such, life for an Aspie can be quite comfortable. That would argue against the link between Hikikomoris and Aspies. There is something far deeper and more complex about the Hikikomori Syndrome that is located within a very specific social context. We do not hear of Hikikomoris in other Asian countries for instance. Nor would the poor economy explain everything. The truth is that Japan has long managed to pull itself out of economic doldrums and Japanese companies and people have been able to integrate into the rising power of the world - China. While America is today facing a long drawn threat of sinking real estate market and the ensuing mortgage crisis, Japan has successfully found new avenues of growth for its young and support for its old by harnessing China's and to a lesser extent the rest of Asia's youth and vitality. But even if we accept the convention of a sick and weakened Japan, it cannot be forgotten that Japan has one of the highest living standards in the world. And when softer factors like crime and social harmony are taken into consideration, it is hard to make the case that Japan is in some kind of crisis. As a country with a shrinking labor force, every Japanese who wants a job will probably get one; even the Hikikomoris who have secluded themselves for years.

It is a mystery to me why anyone would want to lock themselves up in a tiny room that is smaller than most prison cells. This definitive aspect of the Hikikomori Syndrome strikes me as very un-Aspie.