Documentary about Asperger
There's a clip of the documentary on the PBS website.
I don't see how he qualified as "Asperger's" when he had a significant speech delay. To me the guy is smack dab in the middle of "classic autism". It's very common for any adult who can speak or seems to have normal IQ and can't speak to get called "Asperger's" because "Asperger's" seems to sound nicer than "autistic" or "high functioning autistic". I've heard Temple Grandin called "Asperger's" . No she's autistic, she had a serious speech delay. (I didn't, my ASD kid didn't)
Of course, where you divide any of the PDDs (ASDs) is kind of up to whoever is doing the dividing. But echolalia is usually a mark of "autism" and not of Asperger's and the same with delayed speech (like not speaking at all, mama, dada, at 12 months).
I'd say we all on the spectrum have abnormal speech of some kind, but lots of us actually start talking "on time."
I thought he looked like he was pretty coddled, too, from the clip. And I totally would not have enjoyed the party like he did, I'd be alone in my bedroom after a brief "hello" to everyone if it was absolutely demanded of me.
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yeah, but this guy was dx'd in NYC. I would think that most docs here would have given him an Autistic Disorder dx, unless they leaned toward using Asperger's because it sounds better.
I know a young man here who to me is totally classic autistic. He was dx'd with "Asperger's" right when it was added to the DSM basically. I think he was probably about 10 years old at the time and was speaking (he's very shy acting now, I can't imagine that they could coax many words out of him at that age). Maybe since he wasn't ret*d they figured that he was just "developmentally delayed" until they got the Asperger's dx. His doctors might have been afraid to tell his parents that he was autistic back when he was born, too.... I think he's probably 23 years old now.
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I had two psychologists at Attwood's tell me that if one can communicate their point across verbally for the majority of the time without mechanical aid/sign language, one will be diagnosed as AS by them (one must rock/flap for the majority of the time too to be autistic).
I'm sure there's professionals the world over who agree with this; if one gains speech, i.e., catches up to those without a verbal impairment, they're affectively AS rather than autistic.
I don't really know what to think.
Last edited by Danielismyname on 09 Jan 2008, 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My personal view:
IF there is a speech delay, AS should be ruled out automatically.
"Most"? That's not true. Aspies have more difficulty obtaining jobs, and more difficulty keeping jobs, but there's nothing inherent in Aspergers that prevents people from working completely. Maybe in the cases of the most disabled (particularly those with physical limitations), but that's certainly not the majority.
There are always jobs for able-bodied people. Aspies may not be well-suited for them, and the jobs don't usually pay well, but they're always out there.
Honestly, the job I had before this one was one of those. I got fired from it, was essentially unemployed for two months, then got re-hired as they were still desperate for people (and I'd been unable to find better work). I couldn't get a job in my field of choice because I simply couldn't pass the interview - that is, until I was contacted by a place that was desperate for someone in my field. (I didn't actually apply for the job - they called me after coming across my resume.) I feel like the luckiest guy on the planet - they tell me what they need me to do each day and leave me alone to do it.
I would certainly understand if some countries considered AS a disability and offered financial support (so that they wouldn't have to work), but that can't be the case everywhere. (I assume that's not the case here in the States.)
But that's not really what I meant in my last post. My parents forced me to work when I was kid - mowing lawns, raking leaves, filling envelopes, etc. I didn't do it by choice - they usually arranged what I did. I didn't like it, but it dispelled any notion that I might have had that I'd walk into the mailroom at a new job and expect to work with the executives. The articles on the film's website makes it sound like he didn't apply for his first job until he was 20. That's not an Aspergers problem.
It's not unthinkable that an NT getting his first job in the mailroom at age 20 might have similar problems at the start. I worked with a guy who didn't work during high school and arrived at his first job fully expecting to skip to the top. Our boss made him work the crap job (emptying out the garbage cans) for weeks because he always complained about doing it and challenged our boss about it - I only had to do it for a week or two before they gave me something else, mainly because I knew I had to do it and didn't complain about it (despite hating it). Nicky's Aspergers may cause a lot of his issues, but that's certainly not the cause of all of what you see in the film.
Most individuals with Asperger's/HFA hold no "formal" job (it's higher than 80% in the US and UK).
This is taken from an excellent study on the outcome of AS/HFA (there's not many on such).
You touched on something that I've found difficult in those with autism that pertains to employment: organizing it themselves. As long as the individuals are fixating on their narrow interest, there isn't motivation to do anything else, or rather, there appears to be no motivation to organize it themselves.
beau99,
Some of Kanner's original children spoke on time.
IF there is a speech delay, AS should be ruled out automatically.
The group Michelle Dawson works with (if I remember correctly) divides autism from Asperger's by whether or not there is a significant speech delay or echolalia.
As far as I know I never did the classic echolalia (maybe some scripting, but I had more speech than just scripting), same with my kid and as far as I know the same is true for my kids' dad.
I don't know if Kanner's autistics who spoke on time were actually "speaking" in echolalia which is not what most people think of as "speaking" in the usual developmental sense. I'd have to go read the cases again (which are on neurodiversity.com).
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beau99,
Some of Kanner's original children spoke on time.
I know.
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There were definitely pieces here and there that I related to, but I just couldn't get past the fact that I thought the guy was a douchebag. Maybe I'll catch it again this weekend so that I can see it without the distraction.
i was a tad in-and out too...I wish it was more of a documentary...I could not really relate to the guy so much...I mean some ways...the way he was running around the house...his idealistic speculations on things he had not yet experienced...the singing
It seemed sorta scripted/contrived in a way even....
autism_diva,
I remember there was a girl with a normal vocabulary at the age of two in Kanner's group; it's the one who asked if she could have the professional's pen.
No one,
Personality differs in autism just the same as normal people; you look for the core symptoms rather than their subjective opinions.
Their excellent rote memory, coupled with the inability to use language in any other way, often led the parents to stuff them more and more verses, zoologic and botanic names, titles and composers of Victrola record pieces, and the like. Thus, from the start, language-which the children did not use for the purpose of communication-was deflected in a considerable measure to a self-sufficient, semantically and conversationally valueless or grossly distorted memory exercise. To a child 2 or 3 years old, all these words, numbers, and poems (“questions and answers of the Presbyterian Catechism”; “Mendelssohn’s violin concerto”; the “Twenty-third Psalm”; a French lullaby; an encyclopedia index page) could hardly have more meaning than sets of nonsense syllables to adults. It is difficult to know for certain whether the stuffing as such has contributed essentially to the course of the psychopathologic condition. But it is also difficult to imagine that it did not cut deeply into the development of language as a tool for receiving and imparting meaningful messages.
As far as the communicative functions of speech are concerned, there is no fundamental difference between the eight speaking and the three mute children, Richard was once overheard by his boarding mother to say distinctly, “good night.”Justified skepticism about this observation was later dispelled when this “mute”child was seen in the shaping his mouth in silent repetition of words when asked to say certain things. “Mute” Virginia-so her cottage mates insisted-was heard repeatedly to say, "Chocolate", "Marshmallow", "Mama", “Baby.”
http://autismdiva.blogspot.com/2005/08/ ... m-101.html
http://aspires-relationships.com/articl ... ontact.htm
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Leo Kanner
John Hopkins University School of Medicine
The destinies of the eleven children first reported in 1943 as suffering from autistic disturbances of affective contact are brought up to date. Their life histories are summarized succinctly in terms of developmental data, family constellations, clinical observations in the course of the years, the varieties of professional planning and present status. Attention is called to the subsequent scientific studies of early infantile autism and ever-increasing facilities for research nosology, biochemical and general systemic implication, and therapeutic amelioration. The need for continued follow-up of autistic children is emphasized.
The June 1943 issue of the now extinct journal The Nervous Child carried a paper entitled “Autistic disturbances of affective contact”; the first 24 pages told about 11 children who had in common a pattern of behavior not previously considered in its startling uniqueness; this was followed by 9 pages of discussion and comment. An introductory paragraph concluded with the sentence: “Since none of the children of this group has as yet attained an age beyond 11 years, this must be considered a preliminary report, to be enlarged upon as the patients grow older and further development is made.”
Twenty-eight years have elapsed since then. The periodical in which the article was printed has been out of circulation for a long time.
The patients were between 2 and 8 years old when first seen at Children’s Psychiatric Clinic of the Johns Hopkins Hospital. What has become of them? What is their present status?
[Page 120 is missing it includes the beginning of the description of "Case 1"]
(page 121)
...referring to Donald as “a concentrated child mentally” and surmised that “he might have some glandular disease.”
The father, whom Donald resembled physically, was “a successful, meticulous, hardworking lawyer, who takes everything very seriously ... When he walks down the street, he is so absorbed in thinking that he sees nothing and nobody and cannot remember anything about the walk.” The mother, a college graduate, was a calm, capable person to whom her husband felt superior. A second child, a boy was born on May 22, 1938.
At the Clinic, Donald was found to be in good physical condition. He was placed for 2 weeks at the Child Study Home of Maryland for an intensive observation by Drs. Eugenia S. Cameron and George Frankl. After this, Donald came back three times for a checkup. Space does not allow our even coming close to the minutely recorded data in the Clinic files and in the frequent letters sent by and to the mother who, while her husband had functioned as a reliable historian, became the active participant in the child’s management. Suffice it to say that the father’s description could be confirmed. Donald wandered about smiling, making stereotyped movements with his fingers, shaking his head from side to side, humming the same three-not tune. He spun with great pleasure any he could seize upon to spin. Most of his actions were repetitious carried out the same way each time. He kept parroting what he had heard said to him, using the personal pronouns for the persons quoted, even to the point of imitating their intonation.
In 1942, his parents placed him on a tenant farm about 10 miles from their home. When I visited there in May 1945, I was amazed at the wisdom of the couple who took care of him. they managed to give him goals for his sterotypies. The made him use his preoccupation with measurements by having him dig a well and report its depth. When he kept collecting dead birds and bugs, they gave him a spot for a “graveyard” and had him put up markers; on each he wrote a first name, the type of animal as a middle name, and the farmer’s last name, e.g., “John Snail Lewis. Born, date unknown. Died, (date on which he found the animal).” When he kept counting rows of corn over and over, they had him count the rows while plowing them. On my visit, he plowed six long rows, it was remarkable how well he handled the horse and plow and turned the horse around. It was obvious that Mr. and Mrs. Lewis were very fond of him and just as obvious that they were gently firm. He attended a country school where his peculiarities were accepted and where he made good scholastic progress.
The rest of the story is contained in a letter from the mother, dated April 6, 1970:
“Don is now 36 years old, a bachelor living at home with us. He had an acute attack of rheumatoid arthritis in 1955. Fortunately, this lasted only a few (page 122) weeks. Physically, since that time, he has been in perfect health... Since receiving his A.B. degree in 1958, he has worked in the local bank as a teller. He is satisfied to remain a teller, having no real desire for promotion. He meets the public there real well. His chief hobby is golf, playing four or five times a week at the local country club. While he is no pro, he has six trophies won in local competition . ... Other interests are Kiwanis Club (served as president one term), Jaycees, Investment Club, Secretary of Presbyterian Sunday School. He is dependable, accurate, shows originality in editing the Jaycee program information, is even-tempered but has a mind of his own. ... He owns his second car, likes his independence. His room includes his own TV, record player, and many books. In College his major was French and he showed a particular aptitude for languages. Don is a fair bridge player but never initiates a game. Lack of initiative seems to be his most serious drawback. he takes very little part in social conversation and shows no interest in the opposite sex.
“While Don is not completely normal, he has taken his place in society very well, so much better than we ever hoped for. If he can maintain status quo, I think he has adjusted sufficiently to take care of himself. For this much progress, we are truly grateful. .... Please give Dr. Kanner our kindest regards. Tell him the couple Don lived with for 4 years, Mr. and Mrs. Lewis are still our friends. We see them quite often. Don has never had any medication for his emotional trouble. I wish I knew what his inner feelings really are. As long as he continues as he is now, we can continue to be thankful.”
Case 2
Frederick Creighton (“Wikky”) W. was seen on May 29, 1942, one week before his sixth birthday. This is an abstract of his mother’s complaint statement:
“He has always been self-sufficient: I have never known him to cry demanding attention. He was never very good with cooperative play. Until last year, he acted as if people weren’t there. About a year ago, he began showing more interest in observing them, but usually people are an interference. to a certain extent he likes to stick to the same thing. On one of the bookshelves we had three pieces of a certain arrangement. Whenever this was changed, he always rearranged it in the same pattern. ... He had at least two words before he was 2 years old. Between 2 and 3 years, he would say words that seemed to come as a surprise to himself. One of the first words he said was “overalls”. ... At about 2 1/2 years, he began to sing. He sang about 20 or 30 songs, including a little French lullaby. In his fourth year, I tried to make him ask for things before he’d (page 123) get them. He was stronger willed than I and held out longer; he would not get it but he would never give in. ... Now he can count up in to the hundreds and can read numbers, but he is not interested in learning proper use of personal pronouns. When receiving a gift, he would say to himself: “You say, ‘Thank you.’”
He was delivered by elective Caesarean section 2 weeks before term because the mother had “some kidney trouble.” He was well at birth. Feeding presented no problem. His mother never saw him assume an anticipatory posture when she came to pick him up. He sat at 7 months and walked at 18 months.
Wikky was an only child. His father, a plant pathologist, was “a patient, even-tempered man” who as a child did not talk “until late” and was “delicate.” The mother, “healthy and even-tempered,” had been a secretary, a purchasing agent, and at one time a teacher of history. She was 34 and her husband was 38 years old when their son was born.
...
http://autismdiva.blogspot.com/2005/08/ ... m-102.html
More here...
http://www.neurodiversity.com/library_index.html
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Check out Barbara K.
When told that she might, she made no move to take it. The pencil was given to her, but she shoved it away, saying, “It’s not my pencil.”
When told that she might, she made no move to take it. The pencil was given to her, but she shoved it away, saying, “It’s not my pencil.”
Most kids start talking by age 10 months or so with single simple words like "mama", by age 12 months they usually can put two words together like, "wan' baba" (something similar) meaning "I want my bottle," or "See goggy" meaning, "I see the dog, do you?"
http://ublib.buffalo.edu/libraries/e-re ... v5270.html
The note about Barbara K says that she had a normal vocabulary by age 2, but she might have been slow acquiring it. We don't have the details. Or she might have said "mama" at age 7 months and picked up vocab in a very typical way up to 2 years of age. She was not using that vocabulary she knew in a normal manner at age 2, she had trouble putting sentences together. She was probably speaking echolalically, I'd guess.
So yeah, I'd think she'd be autistic by most people's standards today, rather than Asperger's... because her speech is really not normal at age 2. But others might give her an AS dx, or even PDD,nos. Barbara sounds like she was much more impaired than I was at age 2, but my mom didn't keep a baby book, either. I know my oldest brother was trying to teach me how to say aluminum when I was 3 or 4 years old. (Aloomimum, Aloomnumnum).
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I gained single words at the normal age; mama, nana, and what have you; I spoke my first string of words at 4--I couldn't spell "park" when I was 7 (I appeared to be worst than Barbara in the verbal department).
Since I caught up adequately, they say I'm an "aspie" (even if I still have troubles with verbal communication).
