Neurodiversity and Autism: The Other Side of the Story

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IpsoRandomo wrote: In general, an NT can do many more things than what an aspie can do. Generally, there is nothing an aspie can do that an NT cannot.

The aspies that I know as a group are deeper thinkers, more intelligent, more talented than NT's. I think a good team is aspies and NT's working together.

To say that NTs have no problems with people is naive at the very least. Sadly, NTs may have emotional rather than neurological problems with people.

I manage my aspiness with daily acupressure, diet, exercise, and regular detox. Now that it's managed, I CAN (esp since I'm on the high end of the spectrum) and do enjoy the benefits with very little of the disadvantages. No, I don't think some of the neurological extremes are wonderful exactly. But society is made up of individuals and is a dynamic entity as a whole. For some reason or other, autism has evolutionary advantage, or else it simply would not exist as it does. It would have died out long ago. Unfortunately, for society to take full advantage of the benefits of autism, imho some of us on the low-end of the spectrum have to struggle. That is probably why we as a society are as supportive as possible. Who knows? Just my opinion...

What I was saying about left-handedness was not that aspies are just as good at the same things as NTs are. That's not true. But left-handedness can be either a benign difference or a serious disbility depending on how it is treated. If you take a left-handed child and give her left-handed scissors, can-openers etc, she has no problems in dealing with tasks as well as her right-handed counterpart. If you insist that she writes with her right hand and does all tasks right-handed even though she's rubbish at it, she's going to appear inept and stupid. This in turn can affect her self-esteem and her standing with her peers, and have a big impact on her life.

It seems to me that a lot of this applies to people on the autistic spectrum. People without speech have been dismissed as having no thoughts, because in the NT world you use speech to convey your thoughts. People assume that the aspie in their midst is incapable of feeling love, because he doesn't express it in the same way that an NT would. People on the autistic spectrum are disabled in certain ways, but society also disables us. One of the biggest challenges is working out which things an autistic person really can't do, and which things they could do if their environment didn't hold them back.

If aspies ran the world -? Well, I don't know what it would be like. But I think it's rash to assume that society would come crashing down. I don't think aspies would be very good at taking on the running of today's society, because so much of it is set up for a NT brain. But if the human species had only ever consisted of aspies to begin with, I do think that we would be capable of running things, because we would have set things up in such a way as to be aspie friendly. An inability to multitask is only a problem in a society built around multitasking. Your prehistoric aspie might have been fascinated by the details in a rock, but he also had great sight, smell and hearing to alert him to the presence of the sabre tooth's approach.

In a sense all of this is a moot point because we're not likely ever to become the majority, and we will probably always have to try hard to adapt to the way that the world works. I don't, however, see an aspie as a defective NT.

This is exactly what I think - that society is meant to be the way it is, i.e. mainly NT with a dash of AS to attend to the details that NT's just wouldn't be bothered with!

There are many situations where attention to detail is vitally important.

It's just that to be good at one thing, you have to accept that you will be less good at other things. So yes, I am impaired socially, practically & emotionally - but only the "practically" is actually a problem for me - the other things are only a problem for the other people who have to deal with me!

And when anyone at work has a question about how to do something on the database - guess who they ask - me!

Being an aspie does not make you a genius. In fact, many aspies are pretty average when it comes to intelligence, while the vast majority of geniuses happen to be NT.

Those diagnosed with Asperger's may only be considered intelligent because Asperger's is defined to include those of a certain intelligence level. Not to mention the fact that many cited as having Asperger's are not officially diagnosed, leaving little room for objectivity.

Furthermore, even when an aspie is intelligent, there are still more important factors that must be taken into account such as the broadness of his interests, the ability to manage time, plan, predict the actions of others, empathize, manage conflict, etc.

As for the social aspects, social problems would exist not just between aspies and NTs, but also between aspies. Whether or not those around around you have Asperger's, you still need to predict their actions, manage conflicts, compromise, know when to be assertive, etc. Asperger's affects our ability to learn from observing the behavior of others. I see no reason why that limitation would not apply in our relationships with other aspies.

Worse, the aspie's situation is compounded by his narrow interests, coupled with a need for order and routine, which could easily lead to conflicts and power struggles.

All that aside, and accepting for argument's sake that some autistic traits are beneficial, I fail to see how these traits are beneficial overall in their more extreme, aspy forms.

Or Asperger's and autism are byproducts of something else. Kind of like how narcissistic traits may be beneficial in small amounts, but can do more harm than good in cases of full-blown narcissism.

Similarly, autistic traits may be beneficial in small amounts (e.g., attention to detail), but sometimes NT parents with these traits raise aspie children, in which case Asperger's is not beneficial.

In fact, it is precisely because Asperger's has so little benefit that it is so rare. The above quote doesn't make any sense because Asperger's limits your ability to reproduce, which is where social skills must come into play.

without a diverse population there is not much of a flow of new ideas and information. NT's need us as much as we need them. Diverse societies suchas the one above depend on differences in thinking.

I know what you meant. It's not that simple, as I explained in my Wed May 14, 2008 6:29 am post. In all seriousness, I don't see how you can feasibly treat aspy traits as a minor difference. I don't even see how a society full of aspies could function as well as one full of NTs as explained in said post.


Even then, the people without speech are still at a disadvantage. I don't see how that is a minor difference.

Left-handedness is a false analogy anyways because:
1)We are talking about multiple traits. AS is not one trait like left-handedness; it is a great many traits.
2) AS traits are harder to accommodate.
3) Even with the best accomodations, AS traits are still noticeable.
4) AS traits affect all areas of life, not just a few.
5) AS traits tend to have more severe consequences than left-handedness, even with accommodations.

All 5 become clear if you read my Wed May 14, 2008 6:29 am post.


Not really. Asperger's was defined by Hans Asperger 64 years ago. The symptoms and their effects, which directly relates to our skills and interests are extremely well understood.

There are also aspies with effective coping mechanisms and accommodations that can inform us as to how restrictive the environment is—but as I stated, these only help to a point.


Multitasking and time management are inherently more efficient than not having them, just as not being able to predict another's actions is inherently more troublesome than being able to.

In general, everything about “neurotypicalism” has more practical value than Asperger's. Then again, I've explained this in so many details that I feel like I'm beating a dead horse.


...or he would have become overwhelmed and distracted by his detailed senses, putting him more at risk.



I don't see how Asperger's is especially necessary for new ideas to come about.
Asperger's might actually limit the flow of ideas since aspies tend to have narrow interests, while also tending to be analytical and concrete rather than creative.

Again,

1)The vast majority of geniuses are Nts.
2)Many aspies are pretty average in intelligence.
3)Etc., see previous posts.

That is exactly why we are needed. It is not about intelligence it is about our different perspective. We can see details most NT's do not and therefore make improvements through those abilites. Most of us have the ability to intensely focus on a topic which allows us to know more about it and have a better understanding than the average person. We are also not bound by social norms like most people and are not afraid to express dissent when necessary. There are many creative autistic people. Autism is a spectrum. Analytical people definitely have a place in society even as mechanics since again they can see small details and come to conlusion about the or find solutions to complex problems. Many economists and scientists are analytical, we need them. I think many aspies would get along very well with nmost scientists. Who is to sya that having a general intelligence is the best way. It is about diversity. This is like saying black people have no place in society and white people do.

So do many NTs. Despite whatever claims there are as to the abilities of aspies, optimistic claims of intellectual and analytical superiority have yet to materialize in practice. I don't see how the aspy perspective is that different from the NT one, except where social skills are concerned, especially in comparison to NT iconoclasts. I keep hearing that aspies have a different perspective that allows them to form new ideas.

Despite the repetition of this claim, I have yet to see any empirical evidence to suggest that aspies are more creative than NTs, much less that aspy superiority is demonstrated in practice. Whenever I point this out, autistic activists claim that aspies are not allowed to develop their abilities, but never have any hard evidence to back their claims.

Incidentally, I also hear much evidence to suggest otherwise, as explained in previous posts. So far, no one can give a convincing reason why aspies should be more successful than NTs, even if given accommodations.

-Most iconoclasts are NT.
-Most experts are NT.
-Most geniuses are NT.

Assuming, for argument's sake, that aspies really do have more creativity than NTs, more supporting evidence is still required to show that benefits outweigh the costs.


There always have been and always will be NTs around to do that. Our dissent from social norms actually hurts more than it helps by causing undesirable social situations.


As stated, autistic traits may be beneficial in more moderate forms, but I still fail to see how that's the case in their more severe aspy forms.



False analogy. I'm not assuming that aspies should not try to be successful, myself being one, I'm just being objective. Asperger's does more harm than good overall; not acknowledging such is wishful thinking.

I'm also tired of the baseless claims made by autistic activists, especially their questionable claims that Bill Gates, Einstein, Spielberg, and others have Asperger's. Those claims are baseless and should not be made.

Many people can have aspergers and not realize thinking they are jsut awkward. It is completely possible for people with aspergers to pass in society and never be noticed. I have yet to be pointed out by NT's as being neurotypical. There may also be people with aspergers that are trying to pass. The concept of passing is not new. Woman tried to pass as men, interracial people havep retended to be white. Your argument is based an assumption that what you see is what you get, you are not looking behind the masks. People do not have to be superior to others in certain areas. We have many kinds of diversity, why not neurological diversity? I can say david byrne of the talking heads admits tohaving mild aspergers. Your claim only has observation to support it which is based on inference. Inference can be very innacurate. How do you know all said people are NT? Where are you getting said evidence. At the least this argument is inconclusive due to any empirical evidence to support either my claim or yours.

The concept of neurodiveristy does not rest upon the assumption that people on the spectrum are inherently better. It's about thinking that all people are equal (though not identical) and have something unique to contribute.

that is my point exactly

Fundamentalist are able to attain great amounts of power, but I would not say that makes fundamentalist traits beneficial. Fundamentalist are usually closed to other peoples views and the idea of progress. I would say progress is very important for any societies devlopment.

That's beside the point. Others will notice.


False analogy. Aspie differences involve brain wiring. At least NTs can learn to behave the same way, plus fitting in is definitely harder for aspies.



False analogy. That's generally not the case with aspies. Even when it is, that doesn't necessarily capture all the problems experienced by aspies (problems hidden from public view).



Whatever that means. You'll need to provide more details if you wish to make a point.


Of course not, but autistic activists often speak of how aspies are supposedly superior.

As does everything in science and “common-sense.” The argument is a non-sequitor.


It's more accurate than nothing, which is all autistic activists have.


I don't need to, nor did ever make such a claim. In any complicated issue such as this, we are forced to look at the bigger picture.


Funny you ask, because all the empirical data I've cited is common knowledge among aspies (e.g., aspy traits). I've simply used reasoning to show what the data imply. If you want more data, try the psychological literature.
If you don't believe me, check it out yourself. A psychology textbook is an authoritative source. However, If you want something quick, try wikipedia, which can lead to more sources.


Have you not read my other posts? I made a lengthy post specifically explaining why an aspy society would not function as well as an NT one. If that doesn't satisfy you, look at the sociological data.


-Since when did I state that the ability to acquire power was the primary issue? The main issue is the ability to maintain social relationships.
-Aspies can become closed to other's views through resistance to change, desire for order, lack of empathy, tunnel vision interests, etc.

That's nice. So how do aspy traits produce progress?

No where in your posts do you bother to address my earlier posts on the inherent difficulties for an aspy society and relationships between aspies.

Look, I'm bored with this topic and have already covered these points in great detail. You keep making arguments I've already covered while ignoring my other points (e.g., the problems with relationships between aspies compared to NTs). Find someone else to debate this with.

neurodiversity is just the opiate of many people. It only provides and escape valve for the vulnerable