Growing evidence for the extreme male brain theory of autism

Page 3 of 4 [ 58 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

ephemerella
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 2 Mar 2007
Age: 53
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,335

13 Mar 2009, 7:39 pm

Ishmael wrote:

There is, however, evidence that some male aspergers have higher levels of testosterone - a minor comorbid issue, and ultimately meaningless.
For his theory to be true, the levels of testosterone would have to be consistant and selective for both genders.

There are a lot of female AS who are tomboys. That would be consistent with my phenotype.

Also, I have a history of higher sexual activity than a lot of females. That would be consistent with high testosterone levels in a female, as well. I'm also very athletic.

But I don't look like a guy.

ephemerella
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 2 Mar 2007
Age: 53
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,335

13 Mar 2009, 7:46 pm

Morgana wrote:

What, exactly, is an "extreme male brain"? Has anyone defined it? Is he ONLY talking about logic versus empathy, or do other things come into play? I´m always skeptical of these theories regarding the so-called brains of men and women. It does seem likely there are some differences, but many of them seem like extreme stereotypes to me. And many people will just try to fit the stereotype of the role that´s expected of them- (for instance, in the case of many men making an effort to repress their emotions). So, whatever neurons are being constantly used or repressed is also going to help shape the brain.

Many of the AS men here on WP seem to me to be less overtly "male" than the macho NT males I know in life...(and I mean that as a compliment, by the way). So how does that explain the extreme male brain theory? To me, the fact that many AS people seem to be a little more androgynous seems to support the theory that many of these "differences" are actually social.

Which reminds me of the fact of my upbringing; being a girl, I got far more "empathy training" than my brothers did. I noticed that, and noticed that I was treated differently than they were. My mother constantly told me I had to always think about what the other person was feeling...which I tried to do, systematically, of course.

Which may help explain the 4-1 ratio of autism diagnoses, as well as the fact that women appear to be more empathetic than men...they´re trained to be that way! I don´t study brains for a living, so maybe there is some evidence that women are more empathetic, I just don´t know. But I do know, just from simple observation, that men are trained and brainwashed to be logical and hide their true emotions, whereas women are trained to be emotional and show empathy.

I agree with all of the above, good points.

Also, I'd like to point out that female humans have more wiring in both left and right brain hemispheres, while male humans have more wiring in the left and not so much in the right hemisphere. While in a normal human (who has social skills) this means that females can support more complex relational thinking and have stronger relationships and social strategic focus, that might not imply the same thing for a female that lacks theory of mind.

More equilateral wiring in the left and right hemispheres might just mean that the AS activity -- systemizing and hypersensitive, sophisticated sensory processing -- has a more relational, associative form in female AS thinkers than in male AS thinkers. I.e. the nature of the systemizing and sensorimotor issues would be different.

IMO, if you lack theory of mind, you lack theory of mind. You don't have slightly better social skills just because your brain is wired for more relational, associative thinking, so long as you lack theory of mind.

ephemerella
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 2 Mar 2007
Age: 53
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,335

13 Mar 2009, 8:02 pm

ManErg wrote:

...Yes, I agree. The differences are probably due to inhabiting a different body, I don't think we actually have different brains. Somebody may know something about brains in feotus's and whether they actually start out different for male and female.

Huhn? There is some intangible difference "due to inhabiting a different body"? What would cause that?

Males and females have different brain wiring. The female brain is more complex than the male brain, if you look at variety of features due to diversified wiring. The female brain is extensively networked in the left and right hemispheres. The male brain is more focused and extensively networked in the left hemisphere only.

This means that male brains can be more focused, persistent and specialized in their areas of left-brained activity. But female brains support a more complex set of cognitive primitives and therefore more complex cognitive functions that males would have a hard time understanding.

garyww
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Age: 77
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,395
Location: Napa, California

13 Mar 2009, 8:35 pm

From what I have read the so-called extreme 'male' brain was actually a bad rendition of what some have callled the extreme 'primitive' brain in autism. I'm not sure why it later came to be called a male brain as the femal autistic brain is similar with respect to information perception thought the processing seems to be different.

_________________
I am one of those people who your mother used to warn you about.

Confused-Fish
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 946
Location: trapped in a jar

14 Mar 2009, 12:05 am

I've done numerous on-line tests that say im more female brained including one on tickle which is actually backed by proper research, most say around 60% feminine. Though the tickle one which was very detailed showed that many of the male aspects of my brain are more extreme then your average man, particularly things concerning aggression and predatory (id have to look up the results again to be more specific) etc.

Alot of autistic are apparently very bad at sports and other physical activities, would someone who has an extreme version of the male brain model be naturally athletic/physical orientated?

TBH i think the whole theory is just an attempt to come up with an overly simplified answer, are brains are made extremely different from NT brains causing us to think, learn, communicate etc. very differently to NT's and as such we cant really be categorised by NT terms. the biggest failure that those who "study" autism make is the inability to accept or understand the fact that we are not NT, in the slightest.

At the most, certain specific aspects about us may be extremely male brained. But the abnormalities encountered in most studied autistic brains are no way near that simple that the cause could be simply a case of "extreme male brain"

pandd
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Age: 52
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,430

14 Mar 2009, 12:31 am

Gender is a social elaboration about biological facts. People with autistic spectrum disorders vary in their underlying biological propensities with regard to these facts (just as do non-autistic people). The difference is we tend to acquire and internalize complex social roles less readily (when compared to non-autistic people) so that our underlying propensities are often less mediated and altered by social gender norms.

alba
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 756

14 Mar 2009, 1:26 pm

marshall wrote:

I would agree with SBC that statistically people on the spectrum have higher systemizing and lower empathizing based on his criteria. However the problem with the theory is that it goes too far and ends up confusing correlation for causation. Having higher systemizing ability than empathy is an effect of AS, not the fundamental difference IMO.

From the inside I have a slightly different picture than what the NT will perceive. I really think the fundamental difference is in the way our conscious and sub-conscious mental processing units interact. We have a more focused mental processing than an NT. I think it just so happens that social interaction requires the most complex manner of processing sensory information. Social interaction requires juggling more incoming sensory information and simultaneously processing over a wider area of the brain than any other mental activity. Our focused thinking method doesn't work well in this kind of setting.

I agree with your assessment, especially regarding the way conscious and sub-conscious processing interact.

It seems there are 3, possibly 4, basic differences between NT and AS neurological wiring:
1. AS have ultrasensitive sensory wiring and sensory issues
2. AS prioritize focused or indepth analysis as opposed to broad & superficial skimming
3. AS process conscious/unconscious differently from NTs
4. All of the above may implicate differences in memory processing

Last edited by alba on 14 Mar 2009, 5:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

pandd
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Age: 52
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,430

14 Mar 2009, 4:01 pm

alba wrote:

1. AS have heightened sensory perceptions

This is really not true. There is one result from research indicating greater acuity of vision, with another result demonstrating audio deficiency. The later included a much more robust sample set (greater number of individuals measured both control and autistic), but both seem fairly impressive as preliminary research.

Sensitivity can be excessive, inhibited or both in particular individuals.

outlier
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Age: 47
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,429

14 Mar 2009, 4:11 pm

pandd wrote:

There is one result from research indicating greater acuity of vision, with another result demonstrating audio deficiency. The later included a much more robust sample set (greater number of individuals measured both control and autistic), but both seem fairly impressive as preliminary research.

I've studied the visual acuity one. Both my father and I have well above average acuity. Do you have a reference to the audio deficiency one?

millie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Oct 2008
Age: 62
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,154

14 Mar 2009, 5:01 pm

Quote:

pandd wrote:

alba wrote:

1. AS have heightened sensory perceptions

that is also my understanding. some, but by no means all people with AS have UNUSUAL sensory perceptions.

and these can be hyper or hypo. They aslo fluctuate for no apparent reason. one can wake up and it is simply a "bad" sensory day.

_________________
http://thegameofbreathing.blogspot.com

ManErg
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Apr 2006
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,090
Location: No Mans Land

14 Mar 2009, 5:19 pm

ephemerella wrote:

ManErg wrote:

Huhn? There is some intangible difference "due to inhabiting a different body"? What would cause that?

Life experience changes something in our brain. If it didn't , how could we learn anything. Whether it's the neurons or the connections *something* must be different in the same brain when compared before it learns something after. For example a language.

Some of male & female brain difference is due to the fact that from birth, boys are bounced around and told "whadda big stwong boy he is" and girls are cooed to gently "isn't she a pretty little girl". I have no idea whether it's a significant amount which is why I asked if anyone knew of any analysis done on male & female brains at birth or before.

It's not just across gender, I wouldn't be surprised if the brain develops differently between a larger, physically stronger boy who is used to his peers always getting out of his way, and a smaller, weaker boy who's always getting the sand kicked in his face.

This one of those fascinating "thought experiments". If, say a female ballet dancers brain was put in the body of a bricklayer...would he soon be an accomplished ballet dancer? Would she ever be able to work as a bricklayer?

We tend to artificially separate brain & body, they are inextricably linked, they effect each other in a feedback loop.

_________________
Circular logic is correct because it is.

pandd
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Age: 52
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,430

14 Mar 2009, 5:52 pm

outlier wrote:

pandd wrote:

I've studied the visual acuity one. Both my father and I have well above average acuity. Do you have a reference to the audio deficiency one?

clickme!

outlier
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Age: 47
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,429

14 Mar 2009, 6:16 pm

Thanks pandd! Back to the Cambridge Autism Centre group: I read that they have done preliminary studies on not just visual acuity, but other modalities such as auditory and olfactory. As with visual acuity, their results show the autistic group scores higher than controls. They have not published these additional results yet as far as I'm aware.

pandd
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Age: 52
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,430

14 Mar 2009, 6:27 pm

That sounds very exiting and promising outlier. I look forward to learning about the results when they are published.

ephemerella
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 2 Mar 2007
Age: 53
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,335

14 Mar 2009, 8:17 pm

ManErg wrote:

ephemerella wrote:

ManErg wrote:

Huhn? There is some intangible difference "due to inhabiting a different body"? What would cause that?

I might not agree with all of that (see pandd's comment re: how AS tend to socialize to gender roles less effectively than NTs), but that's a great answer. Small tactile and emotional experiences shape our cognitive primitives and the cognitive primitives determine what functions are supported. From a developmental perspective, you have a good point.

ephemerella
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 2 Mar 2007
Age: 53
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,335

14 Mar 2009, 8:19 pm

Aalto wrote:

I find the most masculine men extremely hard to relate to, and indeed deplorable.

I like them. I find that they are happy to be honest and direct with a female, once they realize that they are allowed to be.

Page 3 of 4 [ 58 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next

Jump to:

Growing evidence for the extreme male brain theory of autism Post Reply New Topic

Growing evidence for the extreme male brain theory of autism