06 May 2009, 2:44 am
06 May 2009, 3:36 am
ouinon wrote:
I think it is possible that "god" is a metasymbol in the same way as the royal family in the uk are , which "supports" the system of class/aristocracy etc, by holding a sort of uber-meaning. "God" may be in fact a product of language in same way as certain mathematical symbols are required/created by the existence of other mathematical symbols. Virtually all of the attacks on/criticisms of "god" could be applied equally well to all other words. And trying to get rid of the concept "god" while still believing in, ( attached to/identifying with ) other words would be as "impossible", or at least as difficult, as getting rid of zero and/or infinity while have numbers.
I agree with this to some extent - some words are dependent on the existence of the "god" word, just as much of modern science is dependent on mathematics. Much thought requires mathematics; perhaps much thought also requires "god" (although not necessarily a belief in such). But I think it is possible to retreat from "god". You would have to retreat (is retreat the right word? transgress? overcome? I don't know) from several other words as well, but maybe not all words altogether.
ouinon wrote:
"I" is as much of a nebulous thing as "Aspergers", or "god". It requires belief in language as reality. It requires that one accept the virtual reality of language. But I am not sure that we need to use verbal language as much as we do in the modern world. It has simply proliferated, like a life form. .
Exactly. That is what I was trying to get at. Self is linguistic, and in many ways, language is about assigning selves to sensory input: labels, as you said. These selves are not intrinsic; they are, to quote you, part of the
ouinon wrote:
"virtual world" that language creates.
Hey it's cool to find someone who has a similar view of language to me. At least, who uses language about language in what is superficially similar to my use of metalanguage. That's all I can really know from your words.
07 May 2009, 4:26 am
08 May 2009, 10:06 am
ouinon wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Anyone who thinks is a "heavy user" of language. Language and thinking go together.
sartresue wrote:
I do not see heavy language use as an addiction, which is pathological, and leads to disease. Reading, writing and other forms of communication are as essential to my life as breathing. I may be obsessed with certain ways of imparting and receiving information, but I do not consider this obsession to be an addiction, just a preference. It has done no harm to me or others.
That is certainly the western attitude towards language. Western religions have tended to glorify language, ( "In the beginning was the word" etc ), but eastern spiritual traditions on the other hand seem to consider language as much of a lure/pitfall/delusion as wealth/possessions and the body. Many of the zen koans are designed to explode/expose language as illusion.
Whereas many people are "inflamed" by the apparent value of material wealth, bodily sensations, or social connections/group participation, some/certain people are inflamed/intoxicated by language, especially the most abstract language, and identify with it as compulsively as others do with their possessions, human contact, or physical pleasures.
Buddhism, ( especially Zen B), seems to believe that language, whether thought, read or written, is as "attaching"/consuming as everything else, and the more dangerous for being so pervasive and apparently immaterial/"unworldly, ( as ruveyn said "anyone who thinks is heavy user" ). Buddhism teaches ways to detach oneself from it; koans and meditation.
But in fact many people do not think, ( or read or write ), very much. They are intoxicated by other things, things that some of us look down on too,
believing ourselves above that sort of "attachment". Language has a "good" reputation in that sense, compared to possessions, or the body. It is associated, in the West at least, with enlightenment/wisdom/understanding.Are you so sure that heavy use of language does not harm anyone?
For a start it is a form of consumption, which like most consumerism, contributes not only to its "growth/increase", but also to the power of those wielding/controlling it, ( we "buy it" ) . Very few people create "new" language; they just use what has been produced by others, and to some extent reproduce it.
And language has a powerful effect on perception/experience, ( because most people "believe in" the virtual reality that it creates ), and on human activity/society. Is heavy language use really so innocent/harmless? Perhaps the "language-habit" is as responsible for global-warming and peak-oil as people who love cars.
.
If you think language is some sort of mind-trap or something, what are you doing on these forums?
Just because buddhism says it is, doesn't mean it's so.
08 May 2009, 10:26 am
Do you read very fast, gulping text down? Do you linger over reading, savouring every word?
I gulp, but I have to be careful to not read to fast! I don't want to
mis anything.
Do you feel "odd"/different if for some reason you read/write/post/say little or nothing for several days in a row?
I'd feel guilty if I posted nothing.
I'm not able to function at my normal pace if
I don't have good dose of fiction and non-fiction
in equal amounts.
And I've gone weeks not saying a word to anyone except for
family. (And even then it was only essential things like 'yes', 'no', and 'thank-you'.)
Do you write reams of journal/"diary", pms, letters, waffle and etc because you find the flow of language soothing/tranquilizer?
Are you kidding? If I read I get stimmy and excited, though
the flow of words in my head is reassuring. I write stories and poems,
and I'm trying to think of things to write for a blog. And I write something,
even if it doesn't make sense. If I can't write, I'll just make little doodles,
or little phrases that I've made up and i'll stick them all over my
notebooks. I have a lot of notebooks. 
Are you a language junkie?
OMG YES.
I have so many notebooks filled with unfinished stories.
(I procrastinate.) And when I couldn't read or write(I did both late),
I drew pictures and simply told people the stories.
If I'm in a room, you can bet that I'll read everything
that has words on it. If I'm in a waiting room,
I'll dive straight for the magazines. My Idea
of going out is going out to the library. I get annoyed
at bad writing and writers who refuse to use their 'toolbox'.
I'm going to eventually have to have a chat with my parents, they
want to throw away my old books.
ADDICTION?!
More like a vice! It's the only vice I have left!
08 May 2009, 10:45 am
general_piffle
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: 21 Apr 2009
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 45
Location: London's famous London
08 May 2009, 10:55 am
08 May 2009, 1:17 pm
Henriksson wrote:
ouinon wrote:
Some/certain people are inflamed/intoxicated by language, especially the most abstract language, and identify with it as compulsively as others do with their possessions, human contact, or physical pleasures. Buddhism, ( especially Zen B), believes that language, whether thought, read or written, is as "attaching"/consuming as everything else, and the more dangerous for being so pervasive and apparently immaterial/"unworldly. ... For a start it is a form of consumption, which like most consumerism, contributes not only to its "growth/increase", but also to the power of those wielding/controlling it, ( we "buy it" ). And language has a powerful effect on perception/experience, ( because most people "believe in" the virtual reality that it creates ), and on human activity/society.
If you think language is some sort of mind-trap or something, what are you doing on these forums?
I haven't decided to go on a language-exclusion diet yet, that's why. I only started to think along these lines about a year ago, forgot about it again until this year, and am still mulling over the ramifications, ( "with" language
).
And I am still too in love with it. As stuck on it as I used to be on gluten, ( and still am to some extent to sugar and dairy ). And it took me years of mulling over gluten, "stop-start" exclusion-dieting and "noticing" what it did to me, before I was able to cut it out for long periods of time and experience, and appreciate, the full benefits of living without it.
Not that I expect to be able to live without language,
but perhaps control my use of it. Discipline myself, as I did/do with diet, so that there is more and more "space" for other things/activities, ( which unlimited language-use currently makes seem too much effort/dull ).
.
09 May 2009, 1:06 pm
Rocky wrote:
As Laurie Anderson sang: "Language- It's a virus!" 
I love it 
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZkjoXyexKk[/youtube]
09 May 2009, 1:09 pm
09 May 2009, 2:24 pm
KenG wrote:
How on earth can the use of language contribute towards global warming?
I was thinking about how heavy language use might have played a role in the sedentarisation of society, encouraged many people's enthusiastic retreat into virtual worlds which technology has been so good at providing.
How addiction to/worship of language may have contributed to a growing intolerance/disdain for physical labour, ( esp. among the "middle-classes" ), and been one of the driving forces behind the development of technology to abolish it.
How language in itself may have created an illusion of power over "nature" which has led to using the planet like an endless resource.
How dependence on/faith in language may have been a very important factor in persuading people to change their lives, that change equals progress, that certain things were worth going to war for, that the field is greener on the other side of the fence. Because language makes you see what isn't there.
How "unquestioning" belief in language, reliance on its internal logic, may have been crucial to widespread belief/faith in things like "infinite growth", free markets, etc.
How heavy language use may have distanced people from their bodies and the environment, until all they saw/see is a "virtual" world, so that are cut off from/uninterested in vital feedback from the "real" world, their bodies etc.
How the craving for a cheap quick frequent fix of language may have contributed to the spread of long-distance communication/"news" etc which detaches from one's immediate environment, and permits skewed reporting of events on a daily basis which one has no way of checking except by more language use, and which consumption gives power to certain groups who can afford to produce and distribute this commodity, which shapes people's behaviour.
That sort of thing. Going right back to the Garden of Eden!
http://www.jango.com/music/Laurie+Anderson?l=0 I like "Big Science"
.
09 May 2009, 7:09 pm
ouinon wrote:
Henriksson wrote:
ouinon wrote:
Some/certain people are inflamed/intoxicated by language, especially the most abstract language, and identify with it as compulsively as others do with their possessions, human contact, or physical pleasures. Buddhism, ( especially Zen B), believes that language, whether thought, read or written, is as "attaching"/consuming as everything else, and the more dangerous for being so pervasive and apparently immaterial/"unworldly. ... For a start it is a form of consumption, which like most consumerism, contributes not only to its "growth/increase", but also to the power of those wielding/controlling it, ( we "buy it" ). And language has a powerful effect on perception/experience, ( because most people "believe in" the virtual reality that it creates ), and on human activity/society.
If you think language is some sort of mind-trap or something, what are you doing on these forums?
I haven't decided to go on a language-exclusion diet yet, that's why. I only started to think along these lines about a year ago, forgot about it again until this year, and am still mulling over the ramifications, ( "with" language
). And I am still too in love with it. As stuck on it as I used to be on gluten, ( and still am to some extent to sugar and dairy ). And it took me years of mulling over gluten, "stop-start" exclusion-dieting and "noticing" what it did to me, before I was able to cut it out for long periods of time and experience, and appreciate, the full benefits of living without it.
Not that I expect to be able to live without language,
but perhaps control my use of it. Discipline myself, as I did/do with diet, so that there is more and more "space" for other things/activities, ( which unlimited language-use currently makes seem too much effort/dull )..
*Hello, this is Henriksson. Unfortuently I can't answer you right now because I've stopped my addiction to language. You probably shouldn't answer after the beep, because it will likely entrench your mind. Thanks.* BEEP!
OOOM-AAAA-EEEE-AAAA
09 May 2009, 7:43 pm
09 May 2009, 11:45 pm
10 May 2009, 12:38 am
10 May 2009, 1:22 am
I think it is interesting that people on the Autism Spectrum seem to fall into two such different groups with respect to language:
There are the addicts/heavy users and those, on the other hand, for whom language is almost unbearable/very painful or difficult. ( There are also the "mixed" language users; not especially sensitive to language )
It reminds me of gluten intolerance ( again ); the many who are heavily addicted to gluten because of their sensitivity to it, and those, diagnosed coeliac, who can't eat it at all because it causes so much damage to their gut.
.
