Are people with autism borderline sociopaths?

Post Reply New Topic

I don't always understand what I'm rambling on about either when I try to reread it. I'll try to say it simpler.

My first definition of intentional (something planned) is black-and-white. You either planned to do something or you didn't.

My second definition of intentional (the NT preferred definition) depends on assumed emotional content; motives, desires, and sometimes even moral content. Ganondox explained it right. The more emotionally pertinent an act is, the more "intentional" it is. Also, the more conscious consideration there is during act, the more "intentional" the act is. If you have to pay an extra dollar, there's an assumption that you have to stop and think about it. The fancy cup is considered unimportant so receiving it isn't considered "intentional".

ahhhhh ok. now i get it.

this brief and thoughtless of an instigation really doesn't deserve any attention. nevertheless poor executive capacity throws that fact out the window as i have come across this and feel the need to deconstruct it.

sociopathy in some respects is practically a polar opposite of autism. A sociopath by definition has VERY adept ability to read the social language and exploit it. a sociopath is hyper social, and more proficient socially than most nt. They are able to manipulate most people to any end.

The social issue characteristic of autists the varying extent of inability to navigate social nuances. What is interpreted as lack of empathy, is more so the inability to read and internalize emotions of others. Not necessarily lacking the desire to understand others or the lack of personal human emotions. Also to whatever extent a particular autist might be considered unempathetic, we generally occupy ourselves with an entirely different course of action than a sociopath. Where as a sociopath is singularly focused on gaining some sort of power and dominance over others, your average autist has no such interest. we are lost in our own world of absorbing whatever information is of interest to is, which is rarely in any connection to human social realms.

No, I don't think so. I think aspies are just as empathetic as NTs, maybe even more. but it doesn't always show in the 'right' (read: conventional) situations. like it's an aspie thing not to cry when your grandma dies, but most aspies are crushed if their pet dies, or they suffer unrequited love.

also aspies tend to verbally express their dark thoughts while NTs keep them to themselves.

This written above is very insightful and precise in definition.
I will add that Asperger's syndrome or Autistic (AS/A) people are by default sincere. This does not mean that AS/A people are incapable of wrongdoing, but as stated in the above quote, contrastingly sociopaths have a specific goal that includes other-focused boundary violation combined with a quest for dominance. The more strongly sociopathic the mind set, the more exploitative they are. Sociopaths are able to fake sincerity by knowing how to read people, and are compelled to dominate in every situation regardless of the pain caused to others.

An example is an AS/A or any person with encyclopedic knowledge the sociopath (SP) intends to exploit that has to go on IV nutrition in the hospital because of severe illness, and the sociopath tells the patient "I wish I could move closer to you, you are my friend for life" to get the patient to write an article for the SP's Web site, and when the patient goes in the hospital the SP seizes an opportunity to ask her to write it specifically during a time the patient can't do it because of being in the hospital due to severe illness (this requires sociopathic studying a person from a Machiavellian point of view). The SP says this and then moves to the next state 2 weeks later never contacting the patient again. Afterwards, the sociopath spreads a rumor while the patient is still hospitalized that the hospitalized person is lazy, stupid and a liar, and convinces many people of that online so convincingly to the point that when they find photos of the paitient in the hospital on FB the SP's convinced ppl say the photos of the patient are fake! The sociopath feels enraged by disconfirming evidence and can skillfully motivate others to feel that way too.

I know the stereotype of aspies hacking computers, but they are often just unaware of hurting someone by their action in contrast to the SP that hacks for dominance and humiliation of others with the goal of secondary gain.

Another example is a sociopath that runs a farm business that requires labor. The SP hires a person (NT or AS/A) that is very uneducated so they know little about their new job and have to be trained on the job. Then within a month, they overwork the poor person so much plus they have lack of empathy defined as finding the employee's weaknesses and fears, and motivating them with those things by guilt trips. So at first the employee has a very energetic performance, then quickly gets burned out. The sociopath asks for more and more, yet in every social or work situation is never satisfied. The sociopath will also take credit for others ideas to keep the other below them by pretending they had the idea first. This wears the employee down and the sociopath by definition is pathologically egocentric (the technical term may be antisocial personality or maybe dark triad- i am not a doctor), and therefore sees the employee through confirmation bias that they are inferior and bound to disappoint the sociopath. It becomes an exploitative self-fulfilling prophecy. I saw one sociopath go through 8 employees in the same position within one year. They even told me on the internet- "I will make him clean all my 8 stalls and then fire him. He is so stupid and lazy he deserves it." Sociopaths also separate all their contacts (not capable of calling them friends) because they tell everyone a different story and play people against each other. The SP's employees are encouraged to check up and spy on each other.

AS/A people rarely do those things because it involves a lack of sincerity and very subtle advanced social knowledge. Just my opinion...

Last edited by zeroed on 05 Mar 2012, 12:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

I know this might seem counterintuitive because of your experiences and being autistic but sociopaths are poor at reading people. They have blind spot for relationships between people because they can't imagine how it feels. The way I've seen it most commonly manifested is when they think they have control of someone and then give them commands rather than working with their target's internal narrative, or with me where everything about me says I'm emotionally uninvolved but they would keep trying involvement-based tricks such as flattery. They can't go meta.

I wonder do sociopaths know they are sociopaths?

IMO the difference between AsPD and AS is one of morals. The reason AsPD people learn to manipulate NTs and AS people generally don't is purely one of motivation and internal limits. An intact moral system in AS usually stops us from using things like flattery (that works so well on NTs) to cause harm to others. Can I manipulate NTs in the same way as a sociopath? Absolutely. Will I? No. I will say though that people with AS can definitely have AsPD traits.

Those are some good observations. i doubt sociopaths would care if they knew they were sociopathic or not. In my experience sociopaths are weirdly shallow. That is so true about flattery and I think it varies with culture and environment. In high population density environments sincerity is sometimes risky and smart AS/A people can learn this too. It also seems that extreme poverty and extreme wealth are telling in that they bring the sociopathic traits out if they are present. There are many people that come from either extreme poverty or wealth that never intentionally try to harm others and always avoid doing so. If they are sociopathic however they have no concern about harming others.

IMO Sociopaths are people who come to intuitively understand the finer points of society and mirror them to fit in without thoroughly understanding what they are doing or get caught up in the trappings of society through mirroring when society has left them ignorant. IMO sociopaths are best cured with the truth. Society would be best served by just giving them the truth all at once so they don't have to struggle with it anymore and accepting that they just have to be honest with them.

They lack empathy, nor sympathy.

And autism spectrum people are less skilled than nt's at manipulationg people. Sociopaths are better than most nt's at manipulationg people.

So autism spectrum people are as far from sociopaths as you can get.

Yesssss. We are just that.

No, actually... Sociapaths usually are not born that way... I believe they are made to become sociopaths because people actively exclude them. Yay!

Some scientists like to put it that way because people with autism are weird and not NORMAL. They are weird creatures with weird brains and they behave in an odd manner. And those scientists are not like that. They are flawless people with a future.

Um, yes. My thoughts on that... don't trust them.

But the way sociopaths manipulate people is... not manipulation in that sense. It is a very logical kind of manipulation. It is obsessive manipulation. I don't think the term "sociopath" is relevant in any way. I think it generalises far too much. Why are sociopaths the way they are? How exactly do they act? They're all different.

Wikipedia says psychopathic manipulation is actually very illogical and relies on the way it is delivered, not the actual content.

The difference is that sociopaths read people very well. People with autism do not.

People with autism generally feel guilty when they are informed that they have offended someone. On the other hand, a sociopath will find joy in hurting others.

People with autism are often bullied and abused by sociopaths. On the surface there are some similarities, but in actuality, they are very different.

I keep explaining why this isn't true, but if you want to keep believing it that's up to you. The first part is incorrect and the second part doesn't apply to autistics whose special interest is people. Obviously if you aren't interested in people you won't read them well.