The site where they BASH Aspie husband and wives. :O

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You don't find yourself in an unhappy marriage simply by being tolerant of differences or social awkwardness, or by not identifying properly with the normocentric population. Getting yourself into a "pickle" comes many further steps down the road from tolerance and acceptance. What you are suggesting here is like saying you shouldn't be kind to a socially awkward man else you might end up marrying him and suffering abuse. Perhaps you DO have some social deficits.



Where is this denial you speak of? I don't doubt that some individuals with autism may deny their own issues, but the community? No. This forum - not that this forum alone represents the autism community - but there are tons of posts here where people with autism admit to and analyze their own deficits, talk about the problems it causes in their lives and the impact it has on other people in their lives. Many also talk about feeling guilt and/or having a low sense of self worth for having a disability, or for even being alive to begin with. So where exactly is this "community denial" that you speak of?

On the other hand, the tone of AS Partners is predominantly about blaming other people...blaming partners who have AS, blaming partners who may not have AS at all, and blaming AS.

It's absurd to blame someone for having a disability, or to blame the disability itself for your own unhappiness, IF YOU ARE MORE ABLED than the person you are blaming.

I don't know if that's what olympiadis was implying, but I have seen that kind of logic used in "new age" communities for years...putting the responsibility on the other person for interpreting things negatively, even if the comment or behavior was intended negatively, even to the point of blaming the person for "creating" it. That kind of attitude is very destructive and I haven't seen anything good come of it.

Interesting. When did you register on that site?

I once registered back in 2007 and never made a post until 2010 or 2009. BTW you register on the site and you can post on any group there. There is another group there called AS and Relationships that Work and they are more positive and there are some other aspie groups there.

Sheesh; that lady should speak for herself. Not ALL Aspies are like her husband.

And it isn't just an Aspie thing for a person to be another person's special interest/fixation/obsession. Actually, it's best that that be the case. Provided, of course, that the special interest STAYS their special interest.

If she has children, she has been with this man for years. I doubt his behavior just changed one day. Many women feel trapped in marriages. I think she is trying to justify wanting out of it by blaming his disability. I have been with my bf for over a year. He is an Aspie and sometimes it can be difficult. But ALL relationships have difficulties. The key is if you can communicate and resolve issues as they come up. If you can't then the relationship is fruitless whether one person is an Aspie or not. Ultimately, I look at him as a man. Not a man with Asperger's. The same way as I would if i were with someone in a wheel chair. I wouldn't call him my bf in a wheel chair, even if there were issues that came up because of that. That's just my opinion, I'm not suggesting I am right.

Personally, Charity, I would absolutely hate to be someone's special interest or obsession. I know far too well the amount of focus and thinking and fixation that goes into an obsession or special interest, and I would be very uncomfortable having someone fixating on me like that and showing that kind of attention. For me that would be off-putting and annoying. It would feel smothering.

Yes, I've seen that one. Apparently, the administrator of that other site is an aspie himself and although they talk about some of the same things, there's more of a level of understanding and they try to work out the issues. The ASPartners one on the other hand seems to be just about ranting.

I agree with this...well just imagine that forum being about ANY other disability, with similar comments, and it's easy to see how inappropriate it would be. But for some reason, because it's about Asperger's, they think it's okay.

I think I would hate it too. On the other hand though I wouldn't want to be with someone who is so caught up in their own interests that they put that ahead of spending time with me. I had a relationship fall apart because of something like that, and it really hurt like hell to realize the interest was more important to him than being with me. But at least I found out early.

Yes, apparently it's okay when when they've decided that it's neurological disability.

It's also a bit odd that they write about it being a neurological disablilty, "they" can never change or be like "us" etc. But at the same time they tend to make it seem like it's a question of bad will from the AS partner's side.

I don't know if it's appropriate to compare like this, but:
If it was a blind person, would they then also feel hurt because he was not able to look his wife deeply in the eyes?
Or if it was a person with diabetes, would the wife then get hurt because he couldn't eat her delicious cakes, made out of deepfelt love? Would people rant about it in the same way?

And as for the thread about a friendship / relationship between an AS man and a woman who thinks she might have a bit of it herself.
She gets the answer that it can't be a real friendship, either it's just mere fake and acting, or she's just his "special interest". It's kind of hard to read. Apparently we are not able to really love anyone or even be friends with them...

And the AS partner can never win: if he eg. doesn't bring his wife flowers (just as an example), she gets hurt because he may not love her or be aware of her.
Then, if he does get aware that it makes her happy and buys her flowers - then it isn't good enough either, because it's all fake and acting.

I remember sometimes as a kid that I was blamed for not doing certain things, and then when I did them, it wasn't really good either, because I just did them "because I was told to" and not by myself. Hmm. Then I could never win, it would never be good enough.
But it was certainly not out of bad will. And I thought about those things later.
But it also made it necessary to do a lot of thinking and guessing (and fear too, and yes, believe it or not, guilt!), what people might want in a certain situation - you know, it was impossible to ask, because I should have known all by myself, right?

As Skildpadde wrote: Walking on eggshells is also something AS people experience towards NT people. (And some NT people / AS people towards each other, I am sure.)

I was thinking about that too. There are lots of comments over there about how they think their partners are being manipulative and willfully being the way they are. But then they turn around and say, this person will never be able to change. They can't have it both ways.



I think it's a fair comparison. Actually, I have the feeling that some of them would rant just the same way about most any kind of disability. Or at least, they might FEEL the same way, but they might not say it if it would be too politically incorrect.

It seems like people in general don't understand disabilities very well (or things like dietary restrictions) unless it's something concrete and/or something that is common knowledge. Even with physical health issues, if the problem is not clearly visible sometimes people get the idea you can just will it away if you try harder...and of course a "neurological" problem is something physical too but I think people forget that.



I believe they have that one backwards. It's the NTs who tend to be fake and put on an act with each other, and often make friends just for the sake of having "connections" or "opportunities." Not that all NT friendships are like that, but it seems a lot of them are. I remember one NT who posted here, who basically admitted that, and I've known many other people in real life who have said similar things, that they make friends mostly just so they can use people. And couldn't count how many times I've seen people be nice to each other and act like they are the greatest friends and then privately one admits they can't stand the other.

Even the ones that are sincere, seem like they tend to have much lighter and more casual friendships with each other. I've always had a hard time with that, as it comes more naturally to me to bond deeply with someone and when I do I am very loyal. I just can't do the phony nicey-niceness that a lot of people do with each other. I can be cordial with people that I don't like, but I can't pretend to be friends with them. It absolutely goes against my grain.



I think that's actually just a "man" thing...a lot of men, AS or NT, just don't comprehend all those little gestures that women tend to expect. Some women look at those things like a series of tests that prove his worthiness, and for the man it is like skiing a slalom, blindfolded, he simply has no idea what's expected of him.

A lot of the ranting on that site is not about real abuse or mistreatment, it's about things like getting a gift they didn't like, or not getting a gift when they expected one, not having a fuss made over a holiday, not being offered something from the kitchen when he gets up to leave the room.



It's really an awful catch-22, there's no way to win. When people don't accept us for being who we are, they are simply never going to be satisfied.

I keep thinking about how some of those posters wrote about feeling "deceived" because they didn't see who their partner was in the beginning. They wrote about how people with AS do things to learn how to be more normal but it's just acting.

I think some of us "act" not to be fake or phony, but to make our real intentions and feelings more recognizable to NTs. But maybe it comes across with the uncanny valley effect.

Most people put on different personas in life, like one for work, another for family, different personas for friends and social situations. But when we do it, maybe not all autistic people do that but those of us who do, I think we put on our personas with more of a thought process (almost like a scientific method). When NTs catch on to that, they view it as being manipulative. To me it feels more like I'm the one being manipulated when I have to do that. I would rather just be my natural self.

All of the ranting, criticism, dissatisfaction etc. on that forum is just indicative of why people have to put on personas to begin with. If you feel like you can't be yourself around someone, and you are trying not to offend them or make them mad, trying to make them happy, you feel like you have to be on your best behavior. But over time it wears down and you just can't do it anymore, and you stop caring if the person gets mad or not.

Coming from that forum, you have to read everything in the context of the fact that many of the people in that space are emotionally done with their relationships. There is nothing that my husband could now do that would make me fall in love with him again. It has gone too far. Of course, my husband is verbally and emotionally abusive, but in a way that's a good thing because I might not have ever left this marriage even though it's not emotionally or sexually sustaining. It's not even intellectually sustaining anymore (and that is a need for me in a partner).

So, you're right - for many of the people on that forum nothing their partners could do would be good enough at this point. BUT, some of that 'faking' and social niceness is important to help your partner feel validated in the marriage. My husband doesn't ask me how my day has been. I once tracked him over a period of nine months and he asked me twice in the whole time. And I live an interesting life! Little gifts would have helped - they're a token of esteem and tangible proof that someone has been thinking of you when you're not there.

In terms of manipulation, from the person who is on the outside (and I won't even say NT or AS, because I'm not sure this matters) - it isn't easy to draw a line on what are AS behaviours and what are intentional slights. Some of my husband's AS behaviours feel like passive aggressiveness, but I think he's also passive aggressive (he can be aggressive/aggressive too). There's also a matter of being aware of one's natural tendencies that are AS related and choosing to behave in a different way (e.g. ensuring that you're checking your partner's emotional state verbally, hugging when s/he is in distress). Or our partners may have been told many times, calmly and rationally (or not) that certain behaviours cause emotional pain and simply choosing to continue them or failing to apologise when you slip into those behaviours. Where is the will and where is the neurological wiring? It simply isn't clear to those sitting outside someone else's head.

And there is no doubt in my mind that my husband also sometimes wilfully engages in hurtful behaviour, but I don't think all of his hurtful behaviour is knowing and wilful. It's hard to unpick. And to get past the emotional damage if someone was going to be able to rebuild the relationship, you'd have to be able to unpick that - you'd have to know when someone was just being AS-oblivious and when they were being hurtful and when they were being negligently hurtful (i.e. they could do better, but choose not to make the effort). I'd need to know this so I could rebuild trust - "Oh he didn't mean it..." vs "Damn, why is he doing this to me?" And it's hard. Even the bits that were outside of the control of our partners - the bits they could truly never change - would trigger the emotional pain of "Why is he doing this to me?" because some of the bad behaviour has been chosen.

On that forum, again and again I see people make the assumptions that AS always creates a long list of serious problems in a relationship. They frequently go so far as to say that they have never heard of an AS/NT relationship working.

However, I don't think any of them have grasped why it would obviously look this way to them. Well, here's why:

? They are a support forum, for distressed NTs in dysfunctional relationships with an AS person. Therefore, most of their community will be distressed NTs in dysfunctional relationships with an AS person. Who's going to go to a support forum to chat about how they don't need any support because their relationship is super?

? In the generations most of them belong to, AS diagnosis was uncommon. Whether their partner is diagnosed officially or unofficially, it's usually the relationship problems that eventually lead to the diagnosis. So what happens to the ones who don't have relationship problems? They'll probably never get diagnosed and continue to be thought of as NT.

? Those forum members who go around "aspie-spotting" in their lives, have a very negative criteria of judgement. If their criteria is basically anyone who's introverted, literal-minded and narcissistic, then they'll overlook any AS person who does not come across this way (since most of them probably won't volunteer their condition, even if they know of it), while falsely "diagnosing" anyone who has these characteristics but not AS. It's entirely a self-fulfilling prophecy.


Another thing I see time and time again is the statement that an AS person cannot change, and most if not all of the compromise must come from the NT partner. This really baffles me, because I have changed a huge amount even before I met my NT wife, and a huge amount more over the course of our relationship. She has changed too, but has never made any allowances for me on account of my "disability". In fact she doesn't consider me to have a disability at all - the diagnosis was made in childhood (there was no doubt at all that I had it back then), and she has almost no interest in learning about it.

The point I really want to make here is that AS is vast spectrum, which varies hugely in how it affects each individual with it. People can also move within the spectrum, and it's well documented that about 1 in 5 children with AS no longer meet the diagnostic criteria by the time they reach adulthood. While I technically have AS, because it's considered a lifelong condition, I am NT to the eyes of anyone who doesn't know about my childhood diagnosis, or remember me from my younger years. That includes professionals and people who have AS family members, and definitely to armchair experts like Bstn3! To illustrate the point further, I'm going to check through a number of things that many people, especially on ASPartners take as fundamental aspects of AS. I had plenty of time to consider all this, as I read through their forum and considered whether I am really that person they would assume me to be without even meeting me:

? Mind-blind.
Nope, I certainly used to have a degree of this t (e.g. I didn't understand that friendly teasing was friendly, but I had no trouble picking up on sarcasm), but I'm perfectly capable of reading other people by now, especially my wife whom I know better than anyone.

? Meltdown or shut down when they do not get their way.
Never had a meltdown, I'm slow to anger and quick to calm down again. I was always more of an emotional shutdown person, but these days it's nothing more than occasionally feeling a bit dulled to what I'm experiencing, and not being able do things quite as efficiently as normal. However I still remain able to have a rational conversation.

? Give lousy gifts, if they bother to give gifts at all.
Some of the gifts I've given my wife include spending weeks secretly making her a video or photo album which shows our relationship, marriage, births of our children and our life as a family. I have planned whole days out, with restaurants, beautiful walks, and places and shows that she loves. Or I just listen for her to mention how much she likes something, and buy it for her secretly.

? Monolog about themselves and their special interest but don't ask their partner questions or show any interest in their life.
Well, the special interest (whatever it happened to be at the time) has long been something I wrestled with. It could sometimes be like a full on addiction. But I've learned to keep it under control and channel it in healthy directions such as my kids and things that benefit my whole family. Based on past experience, I'll pick my moments to talk about a special interest and try to keep it brief. I've always been interested in my wife and whatever is going on for her, but had to learn some time ago that she often needs for me to ask her a whole string of relevant questions before she feels validated to talk about herself. Yes I'll bring her tea, buy her flowers etc since I've learned that this makes her happy. I've always been quick to tell her when I admire or appreciate something about her, give her a hug when she's upset and listen without judgement etc. I was raised to understand how important these things are!

? Live in a constantly heightened state of anxiety, and need lots of time alone.
I don't need much alone time if any. I'm also pretty relaxed on the whole, sleep well, don't carry much muscular tension etc. I used to be constantly stressed out, so I do know the difference!

? Need help navigating the everyday world but cannot comprehend or appreciate all that their partner does for them.
No. I'll admit that I've learned a lot from seeing how my wife makes friends and behaves in social situations (she's particularly warm and good at making people feel at ease), but I enjoy socialising and have never needed her help to make friends or for anything else. My worst AS related problem in the relationship has been with spacing out and being generally slow and disorganised, but I've worked really hard on this and it's only a very mild problem these days.

? Freak out and can't handle it when children enter the picture, and can't be trusted to take care of the kids alone.
From when my wife first became pregnant I did my best to look after her increasing needs, and plan a good birth with her that considered all her wishes. Then I stayed awake by her side through a day and a night of intense labour, rubbing her back, bringing her drinks, encouraging her, communicating with the midwife etc. After the birth I did everything possible to give my wife rest, rocking the baby and even taking him on walks outside to get it to sleep in the night, taking care of feeding, changing, naps, taking him shopping with me etc. I still love to spend time with the kids, play with them, help them learn. My wife often says she is jealous of the connection we seem to have.

I'm not trying to claim husband or father or the year here. I'm just saying that A) I am diagnosed with AS and B) I am a good husband and father to an NT wife and kids!

Given everything I've just described, and given that AS diagnosis in young people is becoming more and more common, it is terribly unfair and destructive to generalise and spread about the idea that these people will never be able to have good relationships, regardless of who they are inside, how they grow and change, or any choices they make. My wife and I have worked through issues in the past, and had she been inclined to seek help on such a forum I have no doubt she would have been told that everything was my fault and could never change, and she needed to give up and leave. Every time this kind of premature advice is given, based on incomplete information, it threatens what might very well be a loving couple or family who could otherwise have made it work.

Last edited by JPS on 13 Nov 2014, 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

This message is particularly directed at Elkclan, and any other ASPartners members who might be reading this thread.

I can completely understand why you need a forum like ASPartners, and why you say the things you do there. I can also see that it's not intended as an aspie-hate forum, even though that's the direction many conversations seem to go. It must be utterly soul destroying to be stuck in a disastrous relationship, with a person you feel constantly misunderstood, ignored or abused by. After being told for years that you're the one who's to blame, I can see why you'd have a deep need to go somewhere you can hear the opposite, by people who have suffered the same as you, and why you'd want to rant and joke about it, and affirm over and over again that it was not your fault and you are a good person. I can also see why, when you desperately wish you had gotten out of the relationship years ago, you feel an overpowering need to warn others and save them from the same fate.

I don't have any problem with any of those things. All I'm asking is that you really take some time to consider the wider, unintended consequences of your actions on that forum, the lives you might be affecting without even knowing it, and how to change your impact to one that's more positive for everyone.

From the posts on Wrong Planet, it's obvious how much it hurts some people with AS to read the public contents of ASPartners. Rather than being a useful educational tool, damaging someone's self-esteem in such a way is bound to have far more negative consequences than positive ones, increasing their defensiveness and paranoia. Some of you report having extremely arrogant or downright narcissistic partners, but I really think that such problems actually stem from a very low self-esteem which they need to keep artificially inflated. Anything that might lower the self-esteem of such a person can only make their problems worse. Then of course there are those aspies who are not arrogant but simply feel bad about themselves, and reading that forum just makes it worse. I saw one woman describing how it makes her close to feeling suicidal, and like she's a terrible burden on her partner despite his constantly assuring her that she makes him happy.

But it could also be harming NTs, if you scare them away from relationships that could have made them happy. In my last post I hope I succeeded in showing that good AS/NT relationships are possible, and why it is that the healthy ones probably escape your attention. I'm sure in many cases the advice to leave is the right advice, but you cannot know that until you have a great deal of information, or if their partner is obviously doing something completely unacceptable.

Bear in mind that for every person who actually chooses to post there are going to be many, many times more lurkers. Many NTs who never even create a Delphi account are going to be taking away this message that their relationship is doomed to failure and there's nothing they can do about it. If this is untrue in their case, what these people read could genuinely lead to them ruining the life they've built and that of their partner and/or family. Even if they don't leave, their emotionally giving up and withdrawing will sabotage the relationship.

So here are just 2 things I can think of that you could easily do to help the situation. First of all, if a newcomer makes a post asking for advice, assuming their partner's behaviour isn't completely outrageous, it would help a great deal if at least one person could put things into perspective by saying "All of us are here because of bad experiences with AS relationships, so you'll be getting quite an extreme point of view. If you went somewhere like wrongplanet.net you'd surely get some very different answers". Or at least something along those lines.

The other idea is that if the moderators of ASPartners could be persuaded to change the rules slightly so that a lot more of the posts go into private folders it would prevent it being seen by lurkers and help the situation greatly. Specifically I mean any statements which broad-brush all people with AS. Say what you want about your own partner or the partner of anyone else on the forum, but generalising in public in such a way is very harmful. What's said behind closed doors is another matter...

Just a couple of simple steps that I feel would make a big difference! Again, I do appreciate how the ASPartners forum helps a lot of people. Thanks for reading this.