Social Skills Training for Adults

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First of all, I LOVE the fact that you do this "snooping" thing too. I never considered this unacceptable in any public place. The Doctor did allow that it was less an issue in a public place when I demonstrated how shocked I was about this social rule. She said that she would not do it all the same. I don't know if I can change that about me. It helps my confidence to know all the details of a room. I mean, knowing theh technical specs of the room allowed me to understand a backup plan in the event my technology failed (for instance) and if I did really poorly I knew where the wet bar was... LOL! Seriously, I feel a NEED to explore these nooks and crannies.

Second (and more important) is that I too am absolutely astounded about how I am being perceived. It amazes me on so many levels. The Doctor that I work with (partner with) told me that she actually worked with Temple Grandin for awhile and that Temple had this gift of being able to help her and her colleques to solve issues that they could not. She said she sees this same quality in me. She reminded me how I came in and just reset everyones thinking about my kid's IEP is an example of this. She said that I had the gift of coming in and identifying the things that were important for all the people trying to help him. She said THAT quailty is what makes me valuable to the community. One example she gave of Temple's help during the times she worked with her is that she had this young client who would yell "BOOM" every time she walked into the room with him and turned on the light. She could not figure out why he had to yell that and so she asked Temple about it. Temple told her that the kid could hear the electricity when she turned on the light. Once she knew that she turned on the light BEFORE entering a room with him and eventually he stopped yelling "BOOM" every time he entered a room. She said that she would NEVER have figured that out on her own. This blows my mind as it seems pretty logical but I believe her 1000% after hearing the reactions of the professionals in this latest meeting. I have heard it now 102 times that I can help them so it is now sunk in. I can help them figure some stuff out even though to me it is all out there already and all they have to do is "see" it. I need to figure out how to teach these guys how to speak our Language a bit better than they are currently doing it. If I can do this, then it is worth the effort times a million!

Kfisherx -
I can see how all these matrices would get confusing, especially when he's kinda handing you the cards and expecting you to immediately incorporate them. However, it also seems like you don't need this particular one - tell him so! While it seems that you do need much of this training, you don't need all of it (apparently). Also, you don't HAVE TO go at his pace. If it takes you two or three sessions to get your head around some aspect of what he's trying to show you, tell him, and don't let him go on to the next one until YOU are ready. It's not like a college course, where you must get through the material in a specified period of time. These two points may be obvious to you, but I get the impression that you're used to learning things quickly and easily, so you might not be used to asking someone to slow down when they're teaching you something.

As far as your teaching role goes, congratulations! Try not to forget about us "little people" once you're famous, ok?

On snooping - if it's a public place, I figure they ought to put up an "authorized personnel only" sign (or similar) if they want the public to stay out of an area. Unless it's marked like that, I figure it's ok to take a look . . . so, often, I do!

Welcome to the thread (I don't recall seeing you here) and thanks for the suggestions/comments. I am very forthright with my social skills coach (AKA shrink) and I try to advocate for myself. My problem of late is that I just find the material offensive and so it pisses me off. I am trying to figure out why and I think that I have it figured out now. You guys have to spend time with your head in some of this material to really grasp this concept. One of the things I am reading today is a cartoon/kids book from her (Winner) that addresses how to be a social detective. And one of the concepts is "expected" versus "unexpected" behaviours. As I read this book and that in particular it hits me. It is so simple but yet I have not yet really articulated it very clearly. My first module for NTs to learn will be on the "Anthropology of the ASD culture" This one is gonna rock. In the NT culture it is "expected" that we use our eyes and ears and bodies in groups. BUT that is not the RIGHT way. It is just A way. The way all the material is written infers that Michelle's views on social skills are the RIGHT way. I am gonna teach that it isn't for us to learn social skills but rather to learn about their culture and to seek out our own within their culture since our own share our own culture. THAT is the way for us to really teach IMHO. Like if I adopted an Asian kid. I would show and teach him the US culture BUT I would not state that our culture is RIGHT or BETTER (AKA "expected"). I would instead teach it as a culture while still allowing this child to identify and be Asian with the Asian culture.

Also answer me this.... In these books, it teaches "listening to your parents" as "expected" behviour. I mean.... Really? Is that really a "social skill" that we autistic people miss out on. Do we really have no concept that when Mom/Dad tells us to turn off the TV and go to bed that we should go to bed? I thought that was just a normal kid thing that you would say, "No" to test the waters NOT an Autistic thing. The way her book reads it is like that is part of being Autistic that you would completely be defiant. I don't associate with that AT ALL! Once a kid says, "NO" to me, he gets punished and next time he realizes that he must do as I say. How is this a "social skill" versus just plain non-defiant or behviour? It smells to me like parents are getting these things confused and that autistic kids are getting away with a hell of a lot due to it. Am I wrong? Why are there so many autistic kid with ODD today? I don't remember seeing this when I was a kid.

Anyway.... that second thought was just a raw thought... I would be interested if there are opinions/feedback on it.

And finally.... Yes, I will remember you guys and stick around as long and as much as I can. It is sort of weird/funny. So many of us have no access to shrinks and I cannot spread myself thinly enough to spend time with all the doctors who seek a private consult with me right now. I wish I could hook you guys up with these guys. I keep telling them that we are out here in great numbers....

OMG - I just wrote a novel in response and WP lost it. *head desk*

Took over an hour through my hubands vacuuming and continually bitching up a storm and interrupting. In other words, it was a monumental feat on my behalf and it's just gone. poof. I wanna cry...

I'll try and get back to it later...

Just a little tip in case you hadn't thought of it, but when I'm in the middle of a lengthy post (or something similar) I copy the all the text to the clipboard or save it in a text file. Saved me many a time as it's so easy to lose text posting to a website or accidentally deleting in the browser.

Thanks for the reminder - I regularly do that on other forums... I've never had that problem here and got complacent. I hate doing that sort of backup because I have a horrible time keeping 'clean' files. I have snippets of Im conversations, post fragments, partially written and forgotten posts, etc... literally all over my harddrive, thumbdrives... everywhere. Been working on fixing that for at least a decade... still working on it...

Where do they get these ideas? If anything, autistic children would be less likely to grasp the idea of "testing the waters". I had no such concept in my mind growing up. NT children would be much more likely to test the waters and know where to start and stop with their parents. Autistic children simply have no idea what is expected if Mommy and Daddy don't make it clear. It's up to Mommy and Daddy to make it clear. Once clear, a lot of autistic children would be compulsive rule-followers. I mean, you might have to pry the rules out of their grubby little paws if you don't want them to follow those rules or different rules in certain situations. I think the kids are getting labeled with ODD because their parents or shrinks are misinterpreting all their clueless confused behaviors as defiant behaviors.

Damn it!! ! I soooooo want to hear your thoughts on this topic. It KILLS me that I see so many Autistic kids that are ODD as well. They are just plain awful (many of them) and it doesn't fit with what I know. It does to some extent but I feel like it can be trained better with consistent rules and parenting.

Perhaps this is why the book assumes that kids do not know to listen to Mom and Dad. I just learned it from getting slapped around. This is the "kinder/gentler" way I suppose...

OK - I'm gonna give it another go. Forgive me if the ideas don't flow smoothly - the fibro foggy brain is acting up and putting words together has been a challenge lately.

I love the 'adopting an Asian kid' analogy. I used a similar one in trying to expalin the fundamental disconnect to my husband. one of our biggest points of contention is how he approachs our daughter when she isn't understanding what he is trying to teach her. I used the example of the Japanese tourist - a Japanese couple apporaches with a map in hand and rather animatedly tries to ask a question in Japanese. The confused American thinks he knows what they are asking - so he responds. In English. The couple looks confused and is shaking their heads. They have no clue what he's saying - in fact, it is clear that he has misinterpreted what they were trying convey. So, frustrated, he repeats himself again, this time louder and slower as if THAT will make his meaning clearer. The Japanese couple bows and thanks him profusely and wander off to find someone else to help them.

When a kid with AS doesn't understand what you are trying to tell them, saying it over and over isn't going to help. Asking them WHY they do not understand isn't going to help. If you don't understand the 'language' being spoken, you need to find a different way to communicate. I use this analogy and I get the same response every time. "But we ARE speaking the same language" - literally. Aren't I supposed to be the one that takes everything literally? There is alot of strife over this particular issue in our household. I agree with you - ASD is just a different way of thinking, much like a different culture. It will take education on both sides for understanding occur. In colonial days it was expected that the heathen cultures should be assimilated and integrated into the conquerors culture - obliterating their own. Now people find that approach barbaric. Supposedly we accept the differences in other cultures and think ourselves richer for preserving as many individual cultures as possible. ASD is not the dictionary definition of a culture, per se - I suspect that there will be push back on that point. But, I would consider it a subculture. Definition wise, no one could debate that.

My husband, on the other hand, feels that ASD and AS needs to learn to fit in with the majority. The majority is never going to adapt - and shouldn't HAVE to learn, adapt or change anything about their thinking or approach. The burden of chang is solely on those outside the majority. Everyone else shouldn't be burdened by others shortcomings. Or course, if that shortcoming were being blind, or deaf, or unable to walk - his opinion differs. PHYSICAL disability is a different thing. He very much still believes that it is just a matter of teaching us 'how to act right' with no comprehension about what it means to 'think differently'. He very much believes that means that we just have a different opinion and that we are too stubborn to change our minds. I suspect many people labor under that assumption. It is definitely a big, huge, massive expansive bridge that needs to be built.

The social skills issue is a touchy one for us as well and me in particular. It's why I've been so interested in your experience and how that compares to the social skills I've agreed to let my daughter learn in her school program. Case in point - they try to teach my daughter 'how to make friends'. Okay - smile, introduce yourself, ask their name, ask what they like, ask if they'd like to be friends. Sounds simple, right? My daughter follows these rules to the letter when she meets new kids. Verbatim, in the correct order, one after the other after politely waiting for their responses. Every single one of them looks at her funny - like she has two heads. There is a WORLD full of nuance in that five step procedure that 'helps you make friends'. No one walks up to you and asks 'would you like to be friends?" Meeting people and making friends isn't some Disney production yet that is how they are teaching her - by this idolized social model that doesn't really exist. My daughter will learn the rules you teach her real quick and she will apply them the same way each and every time - and her teachers don't understand why its not working. They do not understand the ESSENTIAL missing ingredient. And that missing ingredient is the foundation of her 'disability'. I honesty believe that she has learned more about social skills by watching those horrid Disney tween shows than from anything else. She actively tries to work out why the charatcers do what they do and why they react to one another the way they do. It's like a social lab that gives her a working theory to take into the field with her. Being able to talk about ICarly and singing Selena Gomez songs has made her more friends than ANY of her social skills classes. And my advice to her - use what feel right to you and pay attention to what does and doesn't work.

I had a job where I worked 6 and 7 day weeks - I was never home. The lion's share of the child rearing fell to my husband. In those four years my daughter's teachers were concerned about depression and her tendancy to meltdown or start hitting herself whenever she made a mistake. In the year I've been home, that has all changed. I took the pressure off of her to be something that she is not, found things that worked and helped her with the things she struggles with, and got her the officially DX because it was clear to me that the problem wasn't my daughter - it was the well intentioned people around her that just couldn't 'see' her disability. The dx made it obvious that - 'hey, there IS a reason she does X..." not just that she needs more discipline. Now she's the kid she should be - she's herself and damn happy about it. She's a normal kid to me - and to most other people as well. She just occassionally needs subtitles to follow the storyline... which is no big deal. She asks about what she doesn't understand and happily moves on.

Too often in threads here, there are parents asking why their child is so defiant. And that, of course, follows suit into tantrum and then into meltdown. I do not belive autistic children are ODD or incurably stubborn. They are, however, incurably logical. I can't count how many times I've given the advice to watch, listen and question when you seem to have hit an impass. More than likely, the kids have a very logical, solid reason for digging their heels in and 'acting defiant'. ODD is just the lazy way of saying, "I can't be bothered to figure out why my child is so strongly opinionated on this issue - let's just medicate him'. Most ASD kids have reasons - learn the reason and you can begin to change the behavior. 'Do as I say' will never work especially if what you say is completely illogical to them.

And the opposite is equally lazy. Attributing EVERYTHING to ASD and letting a kid get away with all sorts of unacceptable behavior is not the way to raise a healthy adult. I've heard of kids who were essentially 'written off' and the parents didn't even bother to try to teach proper behavior because 'the doctor said he'd never be able to'. What kind of doctor still believes THAT?! Most ASD kids have some capacity to learn - I think many have a much greater capacity than doctors or parents give them credit for. I always go back to the example of Helen Keller. Most people know the story - have read the book or seen the movie. Everyone gave up on her as severly ret*d because she couldn't communicate. The entire point of the story was that someone with communication deficits isn't necessarily too stupid to learn. In fact, they very well may be smarter than you.

We were kids - you already raised kids, I'm in the middle of raising mine now. My daughter knows respect and is expected to practice it. She knows manners - after years and years of drilling them into her head. She is polite and gracious. She has even learned to share - something we really thought we may NEVER conquer. She is friendly and outgoing because that is her personality and because we encouraged it. Was she defiant? No more than any other kid. Where another kid may just be able to 'take the hint' - no means no when mom and dad say it - no, for us required an explanation as to why. Then we were good to go. Other parents have commented that they would NEVER negotiate with their kid that way - they needed to learn to respect authority. I counter with 'my intelligent child deserves my respect - I won't ask something of her that I'm not willing to give in return'. (of course then I'm 'passing judgements' despite the fact that a stranger has gotten in my face about my parenting skills - whole other issue there)

ODD is rarely a dx given outside the spectrum. Have you seen the tv series "My Teens A Nightmare' on Discovery? Plain old NT teens with the absolutely worst behavior. It all obviously has a reason - many times it's routed in the family history. And a therapist gets to the root of the bad bahavior and finds ways to correct it - not just for the teen but for the whole family to change whats not working into something that does. Why on earth wouldn't that model work with ASD? Why are ASD kids either expected to be the only ones who change or that they are a lost cause and can't learn at all? Watching that series, there is some seriously shocking ODD behavior yet not a single one of those teens has a dx. Is it assumed that ASD kids have a pathological defiance simply because the clinicians observing it cannot read or are misreading the body language, expressions and explanations provided by those kids? Looking at the clinical rack record in truly understanding ASD, I would say yes.

Hitting your mother is unacceptable, throwing a tantrum while waiting in line, unacceptable, no table manners or sense of personal hygiene, unacceptable. It is equally unacceptable for a parent, therapist, doctor or caregiver to not investigate WHY these things may be happening, to try and understand where the behavior is coming from, address the issues a kid can't change and to teach the things he can. Applying what they already know, NT style, isn't going to work. WHY is that such a hard concept to get across?

I know I probably veered of course in this response. But yes - I agree - the 'root of all evil' is the pervasive lack of understanding of the ASD point of view. While NT's can wrap their brains around the idea that an alien culture may view things much differently than we do, they cannot grasp the same idea right here, in their own backyard. It's a forest and trees thing. Again. 'Social skills' are teaching about why other people can feel emotionally satisfied with a shallow conversation about the weather, or how they feel valued because you looked at their eyes when speaking to them. Teaching US to look at eyes and engage in shallow conversation isn't really going to solve the problem without this emotional subtext that binds it all together. Explaining the emotional subtext and what other people are getting out of social situations and why is a more valuable tool. It will never make a whole lot of sense but at least it something to work with.

I wish you were able to hook us up with the overly advanced crop of doctors you seem to have found! I went to the doc this last week - the same one who told me that she could dx adults and that I wasn't 'odd' the way Aspies are - and I asked for a full evaluation for ASD and ADHD. She asked me how my grades were in school. I skated through school, mostly bored, easy A's. She told me I couldn't possibly have ADHD because bad grades is a hallmark of it. I told her my daughter was just dx'd and her grades are all a's and B's too. She asked me who dx'd her. (as in - 'they may be a quack...') She was dx'd at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia by a developmental ped involved in many of the autism and ADHD clinical trials the hospital is known for. My doctor politely informed me that they do not do those sorts of evaluations at their facility except in the case of mental retardation. That is a flat out lie. They DO full evaluations for ASD and the full compliment of conditions. Seriously - WTF is this? I would give my eye teeeth to talk to any one of the doctors you've found. I think we are out here in great number - and I think they are a bit scared to find out that we aren't just a statistical anomaly but an integral part of human culture. In alot of ways, I think I'd like AS to go back to being 'eccentric'. They could at least wrap their brains around that.

WOW! Sorry for the length too! Holy crap!

I soooooo appreciate this response.



Sigh.. I keep teaching this concept to NTs. To me it is sooooo logical. I honestly do not get how they cannot see it. My Little was having a terrible time until I made it acceptable for him (much like you did for you daughter) to be him. And now all these doctors are hailing me as a "life saver" to this kid. It boggles my mind completely. So I will keep teaching it to anyone who will listen.




I had a similar thought reaction when I saw my Social Skills therapist's chart on friendship. He gave all these instructions on how to approach someone and ask them to be a friend. I looked at him and asked if he was F@#king kidding? That sounds like a great way to teach an ASD kid how to stand out as weird and get bullied. Like you said. There is a WORLD of nuance under those simple instructions and his advice was dangerous IMHO.

An interesting update RE my social skills. This past week I spent just over 2 days with our extended team. Everyone flew in from Europe and Asia to be together. My group rented this vineyard/farm and catered in exquisite foods and drink. We played social games and did team activities. I participated okay at the first dinner. On the second day, I focused on survival but did end up hanging in the group for the most part. By day 3 I could not be anywhere but on the outside perimeter of the group. See why I cannot seem to manage to get promoted? I am weird as hell in these types of events. These are the types of events where people dress up and hang out with the "right" people, etc. I did NONE of that and all those hours and hours of training I did to help with small talk did NOTHING for me. All I could do was try to survive. There was so much visual and audio processing that I had to do. So now what do I do? Why was all that work for nothing? Did I subconsciously sabotage this? I don't know at this time. I only know that I feel like the work I did failed me when I needed it most. This goes to my biggest point about social skills training. Not only does it fail us due to our inability to get the nuance, but it is 1000% situational. Yes, it helped me to some degree in thequiet hallway near my lab. Put me in a new setting with a lot to process and I got nutt'n. I am going to ask the Dr if he thinks it is worth it for me to try to continue given my inability to abstract and process. I mean is improvement possible? At this point, I really don't know...



I think what I mostly see in the demographic that I work with (pretty well off kids), the parents attribute everything to ASD and are afraid to punish. They are confused about what is a meltdown versus temper. I am not sure exactly how to teach it but temple writes about it pretty clearly in her latest book so I refer the parents to that as a general guide. Again it boggles my mind completely that NTs can't just "see" this.

I do not have TV so do not know of the thing your reference but in the case of my little, I had to work with EVERY stink'n one of his "helpers" as well as his parents to train them what to do. I think of myself like the "dog whisperer"... I REHABILITATE the ASD kids and TRAIN the caretakers. I see these ads in magazines and LOVE this tagline.




Come to Portland and I will "hook you up" with my team. Seriously, I have found some pretty good ones. It wasn't easy but we seem to be a bit more advanced in some areas here and a bit behind in others. The world needs people like me and you to go out there and help them to learn. Perhaps as my "tours" expand I can make plans to visit your city if you cannot visit mine and we can jointly educate some of these folks. Hmmmm.... we could probably do that anyway. PM me and let's talk. It isn't rocket science to set up conferences for these guys. If nothing else that would at least put you in contact with the professional people who care to learn.

Hi kfisherx!

I haven't been here in a minute so I will have to read up from where I left off later, but I just wanted to tell you that this thread has been an eye-opening experience! I think it is worthy of it's own blog!

Not to put you on a pedestal, figuratively speaking, but you have really added substance to WP!

Thanks!

I find this telling. Even someone that has had a fantastic run of success still runs into a ceiling because of the social aspects of this culture.

The ceiling is there often for very good reasons. Moving on upward often takes you away from the things that one is good at; I was under the impression the kfisherx was from a technical background and kept very much hands-on. Being promoted away from that may not necessarily bring any happiness and it may be that her employers very much value her where she is. To them moving her may entail significant 'cost' to the business and little or no benefit.

In this context, a ceiling is a barrier imposed by others, not by oneself. I fail to see how that is a good thing. If such a ceiling becomes a source of frustration, then the value of the employee is diminished as unhappy employees are less productive.