Social Skills Training for Adults

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Just wanted to say ODD is a real thing. I have a mild version of it. When it happens I usually stop and think why would I say such a thing or act a certain way. It's usually arguing or ignoring people that are stressed or in a low mood even though I know they are.

It's usually co-morbid with ADHD and autism too. You can't yell or beat the behavior out of a person too. The only thing that works for me is medication.

I haven't been formally diagnosed with ODD. I have had difficulties with oppositional behavior.

While what you say is true, let's put this in perspective.....

I am a Sr. Manager at the largest chip-set manufacturer in the world. I don't think you are grasping what this means. The next level of management for me is "executive" level. At this company, executive managers are the ones who hold counsel with the president of the United States or hang with celebrities like Will im (or however his name is spelled). This is not some start-up little company where everyone knows the CEO personally. This is a company that helps to shape this planet in many way at very high levels. This is a level of socializing that most NTs cannot do. That is just for perspective....

We CAN learn to do this. I witnessed the ASAN leader Ari, who looked and talked every bit the NT politician. I believe I have less natural ability than him but I believe I can climb into the lower levels of this class of managers/people at my company.

The question is do I want to or should I do this? I have actually been holding myself back more than Intel has been holding me back. I have instinctively not moved into this level for the past 10 or so years because I knew that something was not right there. I have been invited but instead I decided to re-invent myself this past decade. I also did this (in part) because my MD told me that I would not live to be 50 if I did not figure out balance in my life. So I have backed off and learned about health and balance. Now I feel like I have a grip and now I understand why I crash into walls (physically) whereas others do not. I have answers for why I fear this level of management. My boss is ALL ABOUT helping me to get past the barriers before me and he feels I need to worry less about social things. At least he said that before this last Face 2 Face. He may well have other things to say now. I simply could not hang for that long.

We'll see...

I am NOT saying this isn't real. I see it all the time in young people today. What I am very curious about is WHY this is such a prevelant thing today and especially with ASD kids. In the case of the kids that I have seen/worked with, the parents are too confused to properly teach the kids what is right or wrong. They fear that they may do damage or they have guilt because their kid is disordered or some such thing. I can assure you that those kids do not defy or disrespect me. At least not until this point. It will be interesting the day that one tries it on me. That one will learn very quickly to NEVER mess with one of his own..

I don't know why but the idea of going thru this would scare me.

Last edited by Todesking on 21 Jul 2011, 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thank you Surreal for dropping by and for the encouragement. This may end up a sticky or some such thing. For now am fine with it just being a thread.

I wrote a really long post in response but my laptop's battery doesn't hold charge any more and the power cable fell out immediately causing the machine to die, and I lost it. I can't write it again.

I just wanted to comment on this - while it is a frustrating situation to be in, I am very pleased to hear someone else express this issue: that of doing OK on the first day of such events but gradually moving through survival mode into the outside edge, and in my case, if there are more days to it, heading into meltdown/shutdown.

I'm often told not to isolate myself so much in these situations, but I'm honestly not doing it by choice - if I was able, I would take a full part in the activities. I'm one of those on the spectrum that actually wants to be involved, to get to know people, to give people a real picture of who I am and what I can do, etc. It frustrates me that it is so difficult for me.

There is a cumulative effect - each day starting with less ability to cope with the situation because there has been no recharge time. I don't know what the solution is or even if there is a solution. "Trying harder" just makes the whole chain of "doing okay -> survival mode -> on the outskirts -> meltdown" run more quickly because by "trying harder" I'm using up my reserves more quickly.

Surely you are not surprised that some barriers are imposed by others? It has ever been thus. Nobody deserves anything, and life is not fair (and all that). We can only hope that people are promoted because they are recognised for their talent(s) which will be perceived to be beneficial to the job they will be doing, not because they feel they've been waiting around X years and they now feel a sense of entitlement (I'm talking in general here, not pointing the finger at anyone personally)

Is it a good thing for people to be 'promoted' out of a job for which they are most suited and into one where they have limited ability? I don't know the specifics of this situation but it is not unknown for people to yearn for something that turns out to be a poisoned chalice.



As a counter-point to your own; employees being tasked with things they are not skilled at are also less productive, and likely less happy too.

I'm not sure I understand the meaning or relevance of anything you've said there. Maybe you could clarify. Are you saying that you wish to rub shoulders with the rich and famous? Are you in awe of them or think that they are somehow better than you? I'm not being picky just trying to understand where you're coming from.

I was told epilepsy, learning difficulties and add can be comorbid with autism.

No probs.... This is in response to Wavefreak's statement that even Karla has trouble with hitting ceilings due to social issues. I am making the point that EVERYONE (NT or otherwise) might have issues trying to climb into this social situation. If it was easy to climb to this level, more people would just do it. Yes, I am more disabled than NTs in this arena but there are a LOT of NTs who could also not climb this ladder rung. So it isn't really an NT versus Autsim thing at this level so much IMHO though that plays some part in this case. Do I think these people are better than me? Not really. Are they different? Yes. Are they impacting the world in broader ways than I currently can in my position. Yes and also in different ways. Do I respect them. Absolutely. Would I be honored to be working with them at a peer level. Of course. THIS is why I am going through the hassle of trying to improve myself. The question as you so rightly point out is... Can Karla not only step into this role but then maintain the role while still loving her work and maintaing her health? THAT is the million dollar question and I honestly do not know the answer.

Sorry 'bout the long post lost. I frocking hate that.

Yes, this is exactly how it works with me and always has. I am good for the first hours and over time get more and more isolated. I am calling it survival. I don't know if there is a way for me to be "okay" in these environments or more okay. I am hoping one of the shrinks I work with can help me with that one?? I don't know at this time...

@kfisherx

I got exactly what you were saying! And it goes beyond the glit-and-the-glam of your job, the keys to the executive washroom, and hobnobbing with the hoi polloi! It gets down to how all of this will affect the way I function in various situations; it gets down to understanding that I have a limit as to how far I can go in a social environment. In your case, much of it would be difficult for the average NT, but your description of an event you had to attend over the course of several days ending up on the periphery of the group points to the more dire nature of what happens when one is affected by AS/ASD/PDD-like issues.

I have recently been ruminating on the idea that I have spent the past several years in a Twelve Step program trying to do...trying to be...too many things...trying to go to too much. My sponsor has made note of how I seem to become either disconnected or defocused in social situations, or even in conversation between us! He told me that I was just making excuses when I mentioned AS/ASD/PDD the first time, but he stopped one day and said, "What was that you said you thought you had? I'm starting to think there's some truth to that!" We kid around a lot, but this time he was dead serious.

So what I've been doing slowly, and now more consciously, is pulling back. In the crowd I've hung out with, there is always something going on and you can fill up a lot of time going to meetings and playing cards and doing service work. And it can all become overwhelming to the point that I feel like my head is going to explode! I make lots of mistakes - especially playing cards; I have difficulty following conversations, and I feel like I'm just in the way.

Since my father is gone, I've made a conscious effort to stay around my mother a little more. This means I have turned down some invitations - perhaps causing people to think I'm isolating or being anti-social (but oh well) and made a conscious decision to spend time alone.

What a difference this has made!

When I do go and hang out, I am doing a little better - especially at cards! At meetings, I do not stress myself over the hug break when I really don't have a lot to say most of the time and I feel awkward entering conversations. I hug those who approach me. If I have nothing to say, I indulge in a game of cell phone Spades until the break is over. Over the Fourth of July, I won many games of bid whist! Last Friday, I must've been in hyperfocus mode because I ran five Bostons (collected all books in a particular hand)! Though when I had to sit at a much noisier table, I did start trippin' in more than one way. But I stopped playing and allowed myself to relax.

So I've wound up feeling less anxious overall!

There is a post by draelynn at the bottom of the page that talks about the ASD disconnect and how practice does not make improvement. That means for me, solitude is the antidote.

Just to clarify - I do not think practice is a bad thing. What I commented on was that teaching someone ASD social skills, from the NT perspective, can be useless. I think there needs to be a shift in how social skills are taught so they make some sort of sense from the ASD perspective. Teaching ASD to mimic others without any sort of understanding can be useless. So, instead of teaching how we shake hands, look people in the eye and smile - like a trained seal - they should be teaching WHY we do those things - this is especially true with kids. Not only because it is polite, or expected (because everyone doesn't bother with this 'rule' so it seems kind of arbitrary) but the social ritual of greeting people and what other people get out of that action (the reasons people chose to do it or not despite the polite and expected 'rules'). When you shake hands, look people in the eye and smile other people get a good feeling about you and this helps them determine how they are going to react to you and if they may be interested in pursuing a further relationship. Even if this isn't how you do it - you now know why others do it and can chose to follow the polite expected 'rule' or not depending on the reaction you are looking for from others.

If you want solitude that a whole other matter.

If you do NOT, then you will need to learn social skills and practice. There really is no other way to get better at them. Just like any other skill - practice helps. Learning them the NT way is where I think the issue lies and makes it more confusing, convoluted and depressing.

The thing is, I have a pretty good intellectual understanding of social skills. It's something I've worked on all my life - probably how I got to age 38 without diagnosis.

However, I find them extremely difficult to put into practice ... there's a lot of ... I don't know ... "consciousness" about my social skills. It's still not automatic. For short periods I can be pretty good at it when necessary but it is, frankly, exhausting - especially when combined with other factors (multiple conversations to process, external noise, lighting that I can't deal with etc). Sometimes the effort is too much, and that's when my poor "natural" social skills show themselves ...

I usually counteract it by building periods of solitude into my schedule. As surreal says, it is the antidote - even for those like me to who want to be social & involved. I recognise that. When I'm in these social situations it feels like my mind and body get "compressed" with the effort and I need good periods of solitude to let them "expand" and relax.

But how does one deal with situations that last for extended periods, like kfisherx was originally describing, where solitude is not an option?

It seems like she & I share similar experiences of this - we do OK for a while, but then find ourselves drifting into unchosen isolation as we struggle to find the "resources" to continue the necessary interactions.

Speaking for myself I know what I *should* be doing, but there is nothing left in the tank to allow me to do it (I may know I need to talk to someone, but I find there is no speech there, for example) ... eventually there is so little left that even what I should be doing becomes unclear...

It doesn't seem like practice helps in these extended situations. I can't see a solution other than not putting myself in them. But that isn't really an option for me.

First let me say - pensieve & Ana - I do not think ODD is a fake diagnosis. I do believe it exists. My long rambling response did not quantify and generalized way too broadly. My point was that many kids on the spectrum, who are tantruming or melting down, for a wide variety of reasons, are being wrongly dx'd ODD because the parents or even their doctors aren't looking closely enough for the reasons which, for many of us, might be clear as day. I think it exists but I think it is used much much too liberally just like ADHD was in the 90's.

All undesirable behavior is not ODD.

Sorry for not being clearer. I'm trying.

I wouldn't consider it a failure. I know this important to corporate America - and I will stem my rant on THAT - but it is not the only opportunity. You are in a big enough corporation where there may be people there to evaluate potentials in a social setting. And I do not see an overly friendly gabby talker, slick schmoozer and overly proud soccer dad getting high marks in this sort of situation. Assuming it was simply a team building function and that alone, it seems like you went in there on pure will power to power through those three days. I haven't found a situation yet where that works well. You always need to go in with a backup plan - give yourself some slack so you don't feel like you're choking. Pace your energy on the first day - maybe engage for two or three really good intereactions then kind of hang back, do alot of smiling and nodding. I don't know about you but whenever I enter a building I locate all the exits and the bathroom immediately - the two 'emergency' exits. In big groups, I always locate the darker corners, located away from speakers and overhead airvents - otherwise I won't hear or see a thing. I get the impression you were laser focused on the social skills and it sapped you much too quickly - if you were your 'usual' self, do you think the extraneous sensory input would have been so bad? I can just hear you cursing yourself from the sidelines for getting overloaded. I visit the snack or drink tables often, I excuse myself to bathroom often. Being a woman with children no one really seems to blink twice at that. I change conversation groups if I'm having difficulty following or maintaining interest in the current group. I ask people to introduce me to someone I may not have met. You can put yourself in the middle of a conversation without really participating in it - it does take alot of work though. I would never have been able to attempt that in my 20's. And I'm not saying I'm all that successful now - but it does seem good enough to get me by with people with only one or two strange looks for my occassional awkwardness. Whenever I go into those kinds of work events I always have my contingency plans worked out in advance. I love driving to these events alone because it gives me a few hours to talk to myself and figure them all out and center myself. Going in relaxed and without expectations of myself always helps too.

I think you can get this - but it won't be easy. I mean you essentially had everything you knew about the world suddenly turned on its head. I think you need to give yourself more adapt time. But with those big brass cajones - I think you can do anything you set your mind to. I think social skills boot camp make take longer than you anticipated though.

You were having revelations almost everytime you went to this shrink... maybe you need to slow down the pace. Let that one new concept really soak in and get comfortable before moving on. Your approach so far seems like it may have been like cramming for an exam. I think you need to approach it like an apprentice learning a life long trade. Wax on, wax off grasshopper.

Nope, not doubt at all that you can do this.



I really think you need to take your region into account too - the great northwest still has that strong hippie vibe. Still very peace and love and let's all get along. That is the first thing that came to mind when you mention 'afraid to punish' and 'confused' (and 'pretty well off'). I, on the other hand, am very much in the middle of lower middle class, blue collar suburbia. The general rule here seems to be a mixed bag of styles. The schools program is fairly proactive and family inclusive in the educationl sense - the teachers and therapists are approachable and open. I've seen parents who just want to discipline more all the way to total and utter denial - and quite a bit in between. The few parent groups I've tried to join are quietly and politely biased - 'oh, she must be very high functioning'. I can clearly see what triggered my daughter - past tense - we rarely have tantrums that are anything but temper anymore. Meltdowns are essentially gone, not that she was terribly bad with them anyway. And, looking back, the meltdowns my daughter had were almost all sensory. And the reasons seemed clear as day to me. It took more detective work when she wasn't talking yet but as soon as she could talk, we were having conversations. Do people even ask their kids questions? You can easily see a kid building up - then is the time to ask what's going on if you don't know and try to diffuse it. That's common sense, isn't it?

I hate to word it this way but I can't think of anything more apropo - isn't this what they call mothering instinct? Maybe AS mothers have AS mothering instincts and NT have NT instincts - that makes sense. You can't identify what you don't know. How on earth did you raise an NT daughter?

In another thread I said something to the effect of 'I'm not the Autism Whisperer - I just have autism" in regard to my self dx. I'm either an NT that 'gets it' to a crazy degree or I'm just autistic. It all seems so... obvious. I may still be in a bit of denial about 'everyone thinks that way, right?' I'm not really sure I want to know exactly how deep the rabbit hole goes. Which seems like the exact same place you're in. Knowing what I know now and staying sane with it... right here is good for now. People can only take so many life altering revelations in one sitting.



I've got a friend in Eugene that gets dibs! I'm near Philly - that's Philadelphia for everyone not EastCoast. At the moment, I'm just some poor girls crazy mother. And I wouldn't even begin to think to talk to professionals without a dx! I'm not the big successful Aspie - maybe closer to the statisic side with some bright patches inbetween. I think both of our points of view are valid. I think I can offer insights now about what would have been extremely helpful to me when I was changing from college kid to functioning adult - where things when wrong, what would have helped, what didn't. I think all of us undiagnosed have that wealth of information that people want about their kids futures - what does Aperger's look like at 40. Well, ask a 40 year old Aspie.

Maybe there's a book in that.

Either way - I'd still love to catch up to you if you head for my neck of the woods. I have no fear of getting up and talking to people - I just dread the exhaustion from social talking. Lecturing seems to suit me just fine. I can talk about my daughter all day! At least there, I'm 'accredited'.