Why is it easier for NTs to feign?

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Janissy, I don't know what part of your post I'd have to quote because I'd have to quote the entire thing. And unfortunately not in a good way. I was in no way condoning sociopathic criminality--I don't even understand it, to be honest. You have gone way overboard and made assumptions to support what you're saying.

I do feel and have empathy. I am not a sociopath. As I said, I don't actually understand sociopathy--or, yes, I can echo the words in Wiki or from an actual professional in the arena, but it doesn't hit home for me. My comments therefore were the opposite--I was saying you do not have to equate a three-year-old's selfish feelings with future sociopathy, nor do you have to equate stifling base "reptilian brain" fleeting desires, which are repressed (in either an NT or someone on the ASD spectrum...or, well, any human at all), with inherent sociopathy. Does sociopathy exist? Yes. I simply do not equate every possible selfish motive with a lack of empathy and then take it a step further and equate that (false) decision that it was inherent and unilateral empathy with, then, sociopathy.

Last edited by NowhereWoman on 03 Jul 2009, 4:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Greentea:Thank you for the advice.

My daughter is in elementary school and I have already found myself having to explain really subtle social communication to her. Girls seem to start the whole in group/out group ugliness younger than boys and this is already starting. She comes home from school and asks me to explain what a certain girl meant when she said something. Luckily my daughter is a very good voice mimic. (And the doctors said echolalia was a bad thing. Ha!) She can replicate the girl's tone of voice exactly even if she doesn't get what it meant. Then I can translate for her. Little girls are far more subtle than little boys, so I think an AS girl has it harder than an AS boy just in trying to figure things out. The mind games start young and are very complex. It's my mission to translate the interactions at school into something that makes sense to her.

I am always trying to think of jobs she'd be good at. Temple Grandin has written at length on jobs to avoid and jobs that might be a good fit. This one is a little dicey because teens/young adults (when she gets to that age) can get VERY angry at any hint of job advice from their parents. She likes quiet and she likes everything in order so I think she'd make a good librarian. But I also think she'll rip my head off if I suggest a degree in Library Science when she's of that age. Who knows.

Self-sufficiency and independence is a huge goal.

She is a good and kind person and I tell her that often.

I really hope I never have to follow your advice in #6. It hasn't come to that yet. I'm nervous because she is sweet and innocent and nearly literally defenseless. So that one scares me. But I'm ready to get my claws out if it comes to that.

I will try to be open minded to her views. Sometimes she puzzles me completely. No doubt I puzzle her completely too.

Thank you for the advice. It's posts like this that are the whole reason I came here in the first place (but I have got into some very spirited debates in other parts of WP- in the places where the issues aren't specific to AS/NT).

Huh? Please do take apart "my" post line by line because I have a sneaking suspicion that what you think of as my post is actual a mixture of what I posted and what somebody else said in response to me. For one thing, I never brought up sociopathy. I looked back earlier in the thread and discovered that the name Janissy was over some sentences that I did say but also on some sentences that I DIDN'T say but that somebody else said in response to me. This happens when people get sloppy with editing multiple embedded quotes. I think your beef is actually with Discosizzle and DemonChorus, both iof whom have quotes from me (or incorrectly attributed to me) in their posts and then their responses to my original post about 3 year olds forced to apologize. I think you are attributing things they said to me because my original post got referenced or quoted so much that the multiple embeds confused who said what.

Last edited by Janissy on 03 Jul 2009, 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Janissary didn't mention sociopaths, I did, and I was talking about condoning sub-criminal sociopathy, not just criminal sociopathy. You should try and read what I said, "an adult having no feelings for others, and thinking only about themself, cheating and playing mind-games" shows sociopathy even if it isn't criminal.



I wasn't calling you a "sociopath" or condeminng you, I believe in redemption, and I don't believe you are a sociopath or even have inklings of sociopathy, I'm merely awaking you to the nature of evil.



Again my intention was not one condemnation, but rather enlightenment on evil.



Read my post, I was telling you that "an adult who acts that way" is a sociopath or atleast sociopath-like, you can't justify evil. The "pros" are generally confused about sociopathy anyway, it's a huge mess full of double-negatives.



A pathological drive for completely self-serving behaviour despite the damage it does to others is a lack of empathy, if they were empathic they would not do what they do.



If you think completely self-serving narcissistic behaviour isn't sociopathic then you are in denial.



She's mistaking my post for your post.

Demon-Chorus, again, you are saying things like "completely self-serving behavior". I am pointing out that that's taking the occasional selfish or self-serving motive to an extreme. It also takes a child's naturally egotistical (in the literal and not condemning meaning of the word) stance (NT or ASD) to a future extreme that may never happen and, given majority numbers of non-sociopathy, probably won't. I don't think you're understanding me here.

These examples are extremes and more unilateral/all-encompassing ("completely self-serving") whereas the examples I gave (or followed up on) involved a non-criminal selfish urge in a three-year-old and an isolated instinctive urge in an adult.

To then change the plot from the occasional selfish motive to an all-encompassing one, and then go on from there, loses the point entirely and changes it into something entirely more sinister, and this is all in order to make a point--but again, if the point is based on an exaggeration or a misinterpretation, then it really only serves the person making it and definitely doesn't clarify real-life or practical or day-to-day non-criminal/non-sociopathic scenarios (which I have to feel would describe the majority here and would therefore apply much more readily).

Hope this makes sense.

Why are you ignoring what I say again putting words into my mouth.



I wasn't talking about normal people who sometimes have a "narcissistic slip", I was talking about the PATHOLOGICALLY NARCISSISTIC! Meaning they are persistantly acting that way, if you think a person who always behaves like a self-serving d-bag is just having a "slip" then you are in denial. There's a difference between a "slip" and consistent stupidity.



I can't tell if you're just misunderstanding me or intentionally distorting my words. I NEVER said a child who acts in a ego-centric way is going to become a sociopath, I said an ADULT who acts in a pathologically narcissistic way is a sociopath, do you understand the difference?



The feeling is mutual.



I get that, what you don't get is that a ADULT who acts in a persistantly narcissistic matter irregardless of criminality is a sociopath. I'm talking about the irresponsible advocation of "mind games", "complete self-servingness", and being a general d-bag is a bad thing. I am against the advocation of such detestable traits.



If it's a trait done frequently than it isn't a occasional slip, it's a major trait.



You think people are generally good? I think you need to wake up.



I was speaking about persistant fakeness and mind-games for personal gain, it's inherently sociopathic. Everyone has a little "narcissus" in them but some people feed that beast way to much and this is a big problem and not calling it by it's name is ludicris.



It also only serves the person who underestimates the behaviour, this is a big misunderstanding on both our parts, I clearly understand you but you aren't understanding me.

Please explain why feigning emotions the way NT do doesn't entitles most of them as social psychopaths
Feigning is coldly using emotions and words to get your goal regardless of the feeling and well being of the other person.
how is that different from psychopathy ?
Actually,it may even be worse than psychopathy as this behavior is also used to apply collective and unbearable,sickening,degrading pressure on the minority of good ppl who wouldn't and couldn't submit themselves to such wast of life ad soul .
feigning emotions and white lies doesn't stop there as it corrupts countless other fields of human life,creativity and is used to destroy the life of good,honest and useful people by promoting the skilless liars and pretenders
what we see around us now,and in history at large,is constant battle between the majority of psychopath against the minority of ppl who refuses to justify any means to any a crappy goal(basically that is feigning all about)
my personal opinion is that the rise of AS as a group and identity gives much hope for the better part of humanity
and i think that it coincides with the rise of the net and the information area for very good and obvious reasons as this technologies disrupts the "natural" pecking order by shifting weight to communication,knowledge,skills parameters/


BTW
i saw here a comment that i like because it explained to me why i was lynched in almost any forum i unwisely logged into
People who feigned(namely and mainly NT) identify goodness of heart with words,
ie nice words=nice,bad words=you bad
well, i prefer people who curse,people who rages,people who cares about life upon anyone(most ppl) who cares about sounding nice above anything else,
ppl who mistake language for heart are bad herarted fakes who would do the worst thing to theire fellow man when they feel no one is watching
words are obvious but some ppl see beyond words and so are God
let me remind u that the most ceremonial nations were also the bloodiest (Germany,Japan) and this is no coincidence
my last girlfriend picked me up on the net and was immensely surprised to find that I'm as far as possible from the monster every one one the social network consider me to be
the good is in the heart,not in the mouth,it's easy to talk but people who have to survive honestly and stick to theire hearts might have a life experience that will cause then to talk very harshly and very critically about society as it reflected through theire eyes,
most ppl would label such ppl as losers,psychopaths etc... but the truth is that in the world as it know the majority is the psychopaths and u have wars,hunger,
injustice a plenty,depression and illness... to testify for that/

I'm distinquishing between NTs and psychopaths though, good NTs only use "the mask" when dealing with job interviews and their boss', this is a shame yeah, and it's a problem I hate and I want to change, no one should have to pretend to survive.

Pyschopaths on the other hand wear "the mask" all the freaking time, and their intention is to get what they want at all costs irregardless of the people they hurt, these social-deviants I oppose.



Pyschopathy is an excess, NTs who do it to survive, "job interviews and dealing with higher rankers" are doing it in a world (job world) where disagreement with authority means "termination". Pyschopaths do it to take everyone and everything for their all their worth and give nothing in return, not just in the job world, but the social world, basically the Pyschopath has delusions of grandeur where he/she is "god" and they "deserve" to be above the rules.

NTs have narcissistic slips like everyone else, Pyschopaths only have narcissism, they have no slips just deluded consistent douchebaggery.

Slip = Occasional mistake, stupidity, evil



People who do that are either...

1: Not NT, but psychopaths/sociopaths

2: Cowardly or blind NTs who do it out of fear of their psychopathic master



This is why the concept of the "mask" or "false-self" needs to be removed from society, it allows the socially-deviant to pervade it and infect others with their disgusting amoral narcissistic attitudes.



I don't think psychopaths are the majority, it's just that their dominating and controlling with no regard for anyone else, it's why they can climb the ranks so well, they don't care about the social consequences of their actions, they think of one person "themselves", and they are the ultimate rule breakers and cheaters. They use anyone (NT and AS) to there advantage, strangely enough these cowardly clowns are weaklings at heart (look at Hitler and Saddam Hussein they ran when the crap hit the fan, they could dish it out but couldn't take it).



This isn't a "them" vs "us" battle, it's a fight for general humanity against some social-deviants who still wish to instill primitive-hiearchy and non-existent social "rules" they only benefit the greater BSer.



Most of these people are not psychopaths but rather misguided NTs who don't realize "actions speak louder than words" and that not all people are inherently good (psychopaths for example).



I agree with you there, I prefer truely kind people over fakers who think "nice" = "deception to "not" hurt someones feelings, when infact they cause more pain by being deceptive"



People who mistake language are not bad people, they're ignorant that some people are lying narcissistic pyschopaths and are at the greatest risk of falling to these socially-deviant clowns.



I completely agree, true kindness comes from the heart not the mouth.

[quote="nara44]most ppl would label such ppl as losers,psychopaths etc... [/quote]

Some people don't realize that pyschopaths are glib, charming, smooth talkers, not people who are angry at injustice or odd/eccentric.

But this people were elected to power and were served and worshiped by the majority,
to death and beyond,
it's the same majority who sucks up to the boss in order to survive
who beat the hell out of the local geeks
who sees nothing in life but the shortest term opportunity
can't u see it's all stem from the same sentiment and the same distorted view of life
from his point of view the syco is also doing what he does only to survive
i know it's not a clear cut "us vs them",it's a process,and that's why i wrote about gradually shifting weights but as AS writing in AS forum' trying to present AS point of view on the subject of the thread, i must say that, to me, the distance between Saddam and Obama is shorter then the distance between the typical AS and the NT
Because all politicians are basically weaklings and clowns who contributes less than zero to life as they base their life and career not on knowledge and know how but on baseless PR,
the majority who want to be like them gives them support and resources while at the same time gives hell and deny the much needed attention and resources from the people who try to live honestly,
fact is, it is almost impossible to get medical,legal or any other pro support with out whoring yourself to death as this is expected of you as the only right way of doing things
that's why u find so many very talented AS,true givers and excellent people, who has so much to give to society, rotting away in solitude.
this is a serious problem and if we don't get down to it panicked parents will continue to destroy their children souls in order to fit them into hell.
i don't support the "AS uber alles" sentiment but ignoring some obvious observation could be more damaging than violating some PC codes and i think it is quite safe to infer from the data we have so far that AS in general tend to have somewhat better integration and consequently are more sensitive to the immediate and not so immediate environments and tend to seek not the control of others but the knowledge of others and the enviroments
that why you can find so many of us in the technical, artistic and scientific fields and so few of us in politics and government
so(back to the subject )
teaching AS children to feign, as too many "pro's" and parents tend to do,will destroy their life and would deny society of their gifts

The vast majority of NT emotional feigning is banal (and not in a "banality of evil" sense either). It's down to hold a job (as Demon Chorus noted) or to make other people feel good. You may see it as cold, heartless manipulation when somebody pretends that they are enjoying themselves at their nephew's 5th birthday party when they would rather be fishing. I don't. I use the latter example because it really is the single most common type of NT emotional feint. I really don't think the world would be a better place if uncles stood up and said "a 5 year old's birthday party is boring. I'm leaving". There are psychopaths and sociopaths out there and they are masters at emotional feints. But they aren't the norm. Bored NT uncle is the norm.

Has Barrack Obama completely abused his power like Saddam and Hitler? Saddam and Hitler abused their power and people naturally got ticked at their psychopathic behaviour, and then "crap hit the fan" with both of them and they ran like cowards, which just goes to show that the psychopath is nothing more than a false-alpha, a fake-leader with delusions of grandeur. They wish to be leaders but they lack the qualifications to actually be leaders, and that's what makes tyrants, a little yappy dog wearing a "big bad wolf" mask when they are actually cowardly little dogs who are weaklings.



I'm pretty sure most independent political political parties (like the Green party) are full of serious people who take the issues seriously, the problem with the US system is that we have this system that's dominated by "Two" parties which are essentially the same (Democrats and Republicans).



But why do they want to be like them? It's because of the mask they present, the glib seemingly charismatic mask that hides a lack of actual personality and weakness. Another factor is the socially-deviant idea of "putting Narcissus on a pedastul" which has infiltrated society.



Yep, I refuse to whore myself out, I give my collected knowledge, wisdom and ideas out freely. Money means nothing to me, it's just fancy paper used to buy material goods and services.



That's why I think social-change is needed, the AS community brings with it the possibility to fully wake up the herd, we can't and refuse to wear the "mask", so instead of wearing something that makes us want to vomit and has instigated plauge and suffering caused by a few social-deviants who are masters of this "mask", I say we should destroy the concept all together.



Yes but when does it go to far? That's the question, sometimes nice doesn't cut it, you can be blunt and still be constructive, you just have to add the constructive part to the bluntness.



I don't view that as inherently sociopathic, he's putting his family before himself which is a good thing. It's sociopathic however when you lie to someone to "make them go away" in a "nice" manner when they pose no threat, you could simply tell them to "go away" or just say "I don't want to talk", their is no need for deception. You have to draw the line somewhere Janissary.

To hide your true feelings, or alternatively to hide a complete lack of feelings. If i went around telling people i couldn't emotionally care wether they died or not, they'd react negatively.


The Social Plague, so menacing!! So you'd rather people express every single emotion of theirs towards the applicable person? I can guarantee you that a world in which that happened would be a lot worse than the one we currently live in.


What on earth do faked emotional responses have to do with morals?


It's very possible to engage in circle-jerk behaviour and primitive pack-behaviour your way as well.


Oh marvelous! Now i'm a psychopath, narcissist, sociopath and a super-BSer who is clearly going to kill people! sigh, you show a startling lack of insight in said topic.


And you know this how? Do you lack emotions? Do you lack emotional reponses? Do you lack remorse? Have you lived a life as such? That's right... i didn't think you had. Looks like you're just making it up as you go along.


That's right demon, just go ahead and bully people, that'll make the world better. You know what? how about you actually try doing that to a true pyschopath instead of the people you are trying to label. Something tells me that we wouldn't have to worry about your opinions any longer.


Ohhh and now i'm evil! So insightful, i feel enlightened.


Empathy is merely identifying someones emotional state. Sociopaths are empathic because they can do this. Empathy doesn't imply compassion, remorse or sympathy. All of which a sociopath lacks. Faking emotions and manipulation isn't always self-serving and even if it is self-serving, it can be beneficial to others as well.

Yes, I know that's what you were talking about. That's the whole point--that a three-year-old who doesn't feel guilty about taking a toy could just be having a narcissistic slip. I do think you're deliberately misunderstanding me at this point, and that your anger regarding this issue is huge; it seems a highly, highly personal thing to you, for whatever reason. So I'll leave this argument alone for now and let you come to whatever conclusions you obviously want to come to. Your anger is enormous and disproportionate to the argument, and to be 100% frank, is a little bit scary, even in writing and from a distance. I can only surmise that there's some deeper reason this angers you so much and I don't know enough about you to address it, so I'll leave it to you to unravel. All my best to you.

I mix with lots of NTs for all kinds of reasons from medical appointments, committees, social events etc and I don't think that it is so much a question of feigning but of consideration and respect for other people, learning at an early age how to interact socially is good but sometimes you meet people who have maybe not had such good upbringings in terms of being taught good manners and respect for others and you could easily be forgiven for thinking they are aspies because of their behaviour. I am less inclined to think that the differences are because of someone being Aspie or NT but more about experience in social interaction and having had supportive and respectful people around them when they were learning these skills, because, at the end of the day, they are skills.

As for feigning it, its practice, practice. I don't see feigning as something deliberatly false or malicious, but being able to hold back a little can be a good thing and learning not to just say something like "Oh god, I hate your green shoes" and instead say something which allows the other person their freedom, because honesty can sometimes be a way of telling someone that they shouldn't be doing what they are doing and really, who am I to imply that green shoes are wrong?

Back to the original question. Why is it easier for NT to feign behavior?

First, here's where I'm coming from. I'm NT. My partner is ASD female, late 40's. Just recently dxd. We have been together for about two years. The first 1 1/2 years we did not know she was AS. There were many, many hard times as neither one of us could understand each other or why we did the things we did. She had many problems at work as well. After a final, huge scene at her work a co work suggested she get tested. She was, she is, and here we are today. She is on meds now and we are both dealing with life and our relationship in a much more positive way.

OK. Why is it easier for NT's to pretend? Several reasons. IMO it's because we learn fairly early in life that we need to pick our battles. Some things it's worth standing your ground and being brutally honest. Other things it just is not. That saves us a lot of energy because we're not continually tilting windmills over stupid, inconsequential things.

We're usually able to see the big picture and what the over scheme of things is. Yes, we may have a disagreement with a co worker over some minor point. Perhaps a procedural issue or technicallity. But we can see that it the over all scheme of things it's not going to make any difference. The job will still get done and get done correctly. And the goodwill created by "giving" a little more than makes up for the slight deviation in the way things got done.

Finally, here's a big NT secret. It's not always easy for us either. Sometimes it's very hard to bite our tongues when we want to say something. To swallow our pride when dealing with a know it all jerk co worker or boss. To act like we're having fun at the office Christmas party when half of the people there are phoney a holes we can't stand. IT'S NOT ALWAYS EASY FOR US EITHER! : ) But you know why we deal with it? Because in the end, it's easier. It's easier to give a little and be diplomatic than to be at war all the time with the world. It makes our lives more peaceful and productive. It may not be perfect, but hey, that's life.

My advise to people with AS? Pick your battles. Ask yourself in the end, is winning this stupid thing going to make me happier or even more upset? Sure it feels good to stick to your guns and argue with the boss over some minor point to prove you are "right". But it's a huge drag to bounce from job to job and live in a constant state of chaos.

Suck it up. Put a smile on. We all do sometimes. In the end, it's worth it.

Cheers! : )

A normal person does that due to apathy and not knowing a person, that's not wearing the "mask" as I like to say.



Nice sarcasm there , so are you advocating social-deviancy? People who will smile to your face and stab you in the back? People that say having a ton of narcissistic traits is a good thing? People who say that constantly lying in inter-personal is a great thing to do? If you do, I pity you more than I pity my ex-psychologist who told me "people are inherently good" when I know from experience they're not and many agree that not everyone is a goody-goody.




No, I'm advocating a moral position where people can stand up for themselves and not be taken advantage of, you think you're helping but you are not.



Don't play stupid, you know what morals are and you should know that some people fake emotional responses due to a lack of morality, normal NTs do it to survive in the buisness world, they don't do it all the time.



Do you even know what "primitive pack-behaviour" and "circle-jerking" is? People are free to disagree with me and argue with me, that's not circle-jerking, that's freedom of speech, circle-jerking is when a group of completely like-minded individuals gather around and stroke each others egos and shunt out anyone who disagrees with them. "Primitive pack-behaviour" in the natural world is the "stronger win, and the weak are crushed or made subserviant" in the human world it's a mix of psychological mind-games, and such with the biggest BSer winning. I'm egalitarian and support human rights movements (Blacks, GLBT, Feminism, ect), freedom of speech (even stupid speech, or speech I disagree with), freedom of religion (and from religion as I am agnostic), and other humanitarian movements. How the hell am I a "circle jerker" or "primitive-packster" if I'm pro-freedom of speech, pro-argument, and a egalitarian? You may know the words, but not what they mean.



Do you use the "mask" in a completely self-serving way irregardless of the people you hurt? If so then yes, you are a psychopath, and I never said you were going to "kill people" even if you are infact a "psychopath", but if you are indeed a "psychopath" then you are socially dangerous.



And you show a startling lack of reading comprehension, see I can be an ass to.



So inorder to correctly talk about psychopathy.... I have to be a psychopath? Right...... You're logic is incredibly flawed, the leading expert on Psychopathy is Dr. Robert Hare a NT criminal psychologist, I guess he should shut up too because he's not a psychopath. Because a psychopath is going to speak the truth on psychopathy... yeah right.



Not really, infact I seem to have struck a nerve with you, wonder why?



Word flipping and word distortion, that's nice... "Bend over to the bullies, that'll make them go away", yeah didn't work then and it doesn't work now. I never advocated bullying bullies, I advocate standing up for yourself, if that's bullying then I guess everyone is a bully, except those that let themselves be victimized by being meek, I'd rather stick up for the meek than let them be bullied, I don't need their approval, it's the right thing to do, I'd rather be a vilified hero like Batman than someone who turns a blind eye to it.



What is a "true" psychopath? Dr. Hare even comments on sub-criminal psychopathy, these people are not always dangerous criminals, they are psychological abusers and hustlers as well.



I've already dealt with people with psychopathic tendencies, they aren't scary, they're rather stupid. Dr. Hare is even baffled by the stupid things they say and do and those are the criminal ones.



[Deleted for overly rude reply]



Not according to the experts like Dr. Hare, empathy is feeling for another person.



Except I'm not talking about beneficial self-servingness or occassional self-servingness, of course psychopaths do some good but they are completely self-serving so they serve themselves irregardless of it being beneficial to others or not.

Because Michjo is apparently trying to portray psychopaths as "good guys", I think education is needed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malignant_narcissism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

http://hare.org



Again, did you even read my post "a child who is ego-centric is not a sociopath", if you actually read what I said you would know I was agreeing with you on this point.



I have misunderstood nothing, I agreed with you on your points and pointed out that an ADULT who consistently does this is not having a slip. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and I'm just going to assume you've been misreading me.



It's highly personal because people don't want to draw a line between "good" actions, "nuetral" actions, and "evil" actions. They want to stay in an area that is merely white and gray, with no black. What if it's white, various shades of gray, and black? You have to draw a line somewhere. This blurring of "evil" into a great big gray area is repugnant, things are not "black and white" but they are not "white and gray" either.

There is a heap of difference between a NT faking to get a job or asskissing a boss who would terminate them if they disagree, and a deviant who decieves someone who is a non-threat "nicely" to "not hurt their feelings" into going away, when they do the exact opposite if the person in question finds out. Someone who does that is not "nice" they are a liar and coward who are only concerned about their own feelings.



Truth can be scary, evil doesn't act like you think it does, evil is "nice" to your face and when you turn your back it stabs you, all in the pretense of being "nice" when in fact it's cowardly and evil.



You can't address what I already know, I hate injustice, false "kindness", deception to simply serve-oneself, and all that stuff. The reason for my deep hatred for evil is quite apparent to me. I know myself, before you question me, question yourself. Practice what you preach, I already do.



It's already unraveled to me, you may not like the reasons but the reasons are the reasons and no amount of "I refuse to believe it" is going to change it. There is no magical "unexplainable" irrationale here that can only be done by bunk "hypno-therapy".



If your words of kindness are true then they are misplaced, if they are just lip-service then I have nothing to say to you.

Last edited by Demon-Chorus on 04 Jul 2009, 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.