Do Aspies argue?

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It has been my personal experience that often people with AS will lock onto something as an absolute truth without always taking into account that someone else may see a situation differently (lack of empathy) or may have had different life experiences. Things in real life do not always yield a "correct" or "incorrect" answer like a math problem would.

Read the varied responses in this thread. The answer to your question is right there in front of you.

And with that, I walk away from this thread. : ) Continue arguing amongst yourselves whether people w/AS argue more than NT's.

Since the world is overwhelmingly full of situations that have more than one right answer, it's statistically likely that a person who argues a lot will frequently be arguing about one of those situations.

Yes.



Every?

In my case, I don't think in terms of black or white, but due to communication style I COME ACROSS that way.

Ironically, since I come across as black or white, NT-s treat the whole situation as such (since they assume I make it that way) and *I* am the one who tries to argue with them and explain that it is NOT black or white.

Here is an example. When I was trying to find a research advisor at the previous school where I got my ph.d., as I said a lot of ppl didn't even consider me because of bad reputation. But then there were FEW who agreed to talk to me, and some of them even liked me at first. But then when they asked me what my interests were, I started describing in detail some very specific physics problems I have been thinking on. Then they conclude that they are not the right match for me because they are not doing EXACTLY what I described as wanting to do. Then I tell them look, it is not black or white, just because you are not doing EXACTLY what I want to do, it doesn't mean that you are not a good match. After all, NO ONE does exactly what I want to do, and you come MUCH closer to my interests than most people. But they won't follow it. They would say yes it is black or white and what you describe does not match what we want to do.

Similar thing happens in interpersonal relationships. Especially while dating, I often seek reassurance that the girl likes me. So I ask her probing questions, and then she comes to the conclusion that I don't trust her. I then tell her look it is not black or white, I was 90% certain that everything is fine, I only had a 10% doubt, so just had to double check it, kind of like double checking whether or not the door is locked, thats all. But she would say yes it is black or white, either you trust me or you don't, and your behavior have shown me that you don't.

So as two of the above examples illustrate, the NT-s were the ones who insisted on black or white, and I was the one trying to show them shades of gray. Now, do I say NT-s are black or white? No. They are certainly not black or white among themselves. For example, no two people have exactly the same research interests, and professors are perfectly fine to hire other students as long as the interests are "close enough". But they ARE black or white when it comes to their interaction with an aspie. Why? Probably because aspie's communication style is very intense, which makes aspie COME ACROSS as black of white, which is miscommunication. But, this miscommunication influences NT to assume that aspie is so super-black-or-white that any situation involving them becomes black or white by default. And then it becomes a burdon of aspie to disprove that.

So anyway, perhaps your aspie friends are not black or white either, they simply came across that way due to their talking style being intense?

No problem Since I have to always deal with these situations, I can sympathize when others face them.



Well, as it turns out, arguing didn't help a bit. Everyone besides that one professor still refused working with me, despite all of my arguing. On the other hand, the one professor who agreed to be my advisor later admitted that he didn't belive what I been saying, either. He simply agreed to work with me out of sympathy. Nevertheless, he also admitted that right now, judging by my successful ph.d., he does finally see that I was right. But he only sees it now, not then. So basically, the reason I did well is that I ran into that guy, and NOT that I argued. If I ran into him without arguing I would have still defended. If, on the other hand, I didn't ran into him, then I would argue all day long, and still get expelled.

However, the arguing COULD HAVE helped if NT-s were willing to engage in it. I had a very good case to show that I can improve, but they wouldn't listen. Now, thanks to that guy who has given me a chance, we now see that actually I was right. So if only they were to allow themselves to argue with me, may be they would have seen it back then.



So which of the two is the case:

A. He believes you that you are not defensive, and simply admits that his senses deceive him

B. He doesn't believe you that you are not defensive, and he brings up his senses as an explanation for why not

In case it is B, I suggest you try in more detail to describe what it is inside your head, as you put it.

You also mentioned you had more than one such conversation with him. If he was actually convinced in one of the "good" conversations, there won't be a need for more. So, obviously the "good" conversations weren't totally successful; he might have simply been more friendly or didn't want to hurt your feelings. Can you actually bring it up to him and simply ask him why in such and such times he appeared to agree with you, and then, all of a sudden, he doesn't?

By the way, I had similar conversation with my ex, Jennifer. It went like this:

Jennifer: you are trying to explain to me that what you did was not malicious. I know that it wasn't. In other words, I know you didn't do that on purpose. But I still have a right to be angry.

Myself: if I didn't do that on purpose, then why are you angry

Jennifer: I am angry because, by your own admission, you don't put any effort in communicating more effectively, even though you know you have this problem.

Myself: For an NT, the communication is as natural as walking. When you walk you don't have to remember to first move your left leg, then the right one, etc. For an aspie it is not as natural. So imagine how would you feel if you had to constantly remember which leg to move and when?

Jennifer: This is not true. Everyone has to pay attention to the way they come across socially, NT or aspie.

Myself: So are you saying that if someone else, who is NT, stops paying attention they will also come across as rude?

Jennifer: Yes!

Myself: Then why don't people who are lazy have tendency of comming across as rude?

Jennifer: Lazy people are only lazy about chores and stuff that doesn't interest them. Since communication interests them, they are not lazy about it.

Myself: Then what is the difference between NT and an aspie?

Jennifer: NT understands the reasons behind social rules; an aspie might not understand them due to lack of empathy. But they both can learn to come across as normal, and do these things, whether they feel them or not.

Myself: If what you say is true, Asperger would be an emotional condition rather than neurological, since you claim that the underlying problem is lack of feelings. But I know that Asperger is neurological. So an aspie CAN feel or understand things, but he is clumsy which is what makes it hard for him to do the things that he says he understands. Besides, no one is born understanding social rules, that is something you have to be taught. Yet, the difference between autistic and NT behavior is apparent even in babies.

Jennifer: both my ex and my dad are aspies, and they are both more severely affected than you are. Yet, both learned how to get by socially, and you haven't.

Myself: why did you just say that they are MORE affected than I am. I think I am more affected than both of them as well as most other aspies. After all, just like you said: they get by socially and I don't.

Jennifer: Because they are both colder than you are

Myself: Being cold doens't mean an aspie. It might be Schizoid Personality Disorder. An aspie is lack of social skills, and I have it worse than them

Jennifer: (SARCASTICALLY) YES, YOU HAVE IT WORSE THAN EVERYONE, YOU ARE ALWAYS A "VICTIM". AND THAT IS THE EXACT ATTITUDE THAT PISSES ME OFF.



Yes it happened to me a lot. Back at the time when professors didn't want to work with me, there were few that were willing to try. But then when they asked me what my interests were, I went on and on describing my own thoughts about various physics problems that, in my mind, is close to what they are doing, but not in their minds. So then after my 15 minute monologue, they conclude that our interests don't match. I then tell them that I am perfectly open to work on things other than what my monologue has been about. Sure it is less than perfect, but nothing is perfect -- I know that no one on planet earth does EXACTLY what I just described, so I am willing to work on projects that they give me. But they insist in telling me that it would be better for me to find even closer match. So, in other words, they know what it is better for me better than I do?

There was even one professor with whom I managed to avoid this in the first meeting and he actually ended up willing giving me a project. But then I sent him by email some of my ideas just to make him familiar with what I was thinking about, in the past. Then few days later he changes his mind: he doesn't want to work with me because he can't supervise the specific ideas I sent him in the email. But doesn't he remember our office conversation when both of us came out with a conclusion that we DO have interests in common? Well, now that he read my email, he decided that I would rather do the things I described in the email, which he can't supervise. No matter how many times I tell him that I am perfectly fine doing other stuff, apparently he knows what I want much better than I do!

Now, the amaizing thing is that I was about to be expelled. So how can it even be conceivable that my preference would be to do what I want to do and be expelled for it? And yes, they all knew I was about to be expelled -- that was the first thing I told them when I walked into their office. Yet, somehow they decided that it is the case. In fact, there was one professor who was somewhat on my side and he said that working with him would not be in my best interest because he does applid optics while I am a theory person. I then asked him what can I do. He simply told me that I can always apply to another school. He admitted that I can probably only get into very small colleges that are "desperate for students". Well, I personally would rather do experimental optics in Michigan than be in small college. But never mind -- he knows better what I would rather have.

Then there was another example of a woman who refused to take me on because she didn't have fundings; in fact she said she didn't have any students for that reason and it had nothing to do with me. I then told her that I am perfectly willing to do research without funding. Nevertheless, she knew better what is best for me so she decided for me that I shouldn't work without fundings, even though I would have been the only one who suffers, not her!

It happens to me in dating, too. The best example would be Anita, whom I dated back in 2006 (the exact semester when I was about to be expelled). There were SO MANY times when she told me what I feel ... Let me simply underline them:

So basically throughout the few months of my facing this problem she was overly supportive. We were talking for few hours a day on a phone, and what happens to me in school was the only thing we ever talked about, despite the fact that she had her own dramma in her life. She was always overly supportive just like you noticed that some people in your life who treat you that way are very positive. However, despite the fact that our relationship lasted for few months, we never met. The reason was that due to my dramma in school she was afraid that I would get really depressed and decide to dump her, so she didn't want to be hurt. Now I know that when I am depressed I don't dump ppl; on the contrary, I cling, since they are my only "refuge". But apparently she knew better on how I operate than I do.

Anyway, when I finally found that advisor who allowed me to stay in school, I decided to "celebrate" it. So I sent Anita a list of questions about various things she said during the past few months. Back then I didn't care since I was a lot more concerned with staying in school. But now that I finally stay in school, I felt rather bored, so why not ask them all? Then, surprisingly, she became upset, and she was very concerned that I don't trust her. I then started to explain to her how none of these things that I sent her matter to me. However, she kept psychoanalyzing me and asking me just what did I feel when I was sending them to her. I was telling her: what I felt was that I was glad I weren't expelled, I was bored, so I just let my fingers move on a keyboard at random, thats all. But she had a very hard time believing it. She ketp thinking that if my fingers moved that way I must have been mistrusting her, even though I know FOR A FACT that I barely even thought about her while writing it.

Then few weeks later I was talking to Anita over a phone, and she mentioned some plans of hers that implied a possibility for us to meet. I kept waiting whether or not she would suggest the meeting. She didn't. I got frustrated over that and hanged up a phone pretending it to be an accident. Then, IN LESS THAN A MINUTE I started calling her back. All my calls went directly to answering mashine. Then, after 10 hang up calls I finally left a message where I appologized that the phone "got disconnected". Then the next call she picks it up. I asked her why did I keep getting into answering mashine, was she avoiding me? She said (in sarcastic voice) "nope". Then I asked her then what happened? She said that she turned a ringer off. I then asked her did she turn it off because she thought I hanged up on purpose? She said "no, but the more you ask it to me the more I want to say it, so go to the trip to Israel, re-think everything, and call me when you get back" (I had an upcomming tour to Israel in a week or so, and that trip was supposed to last 10 days).

After she finished saying that, she hanged up a phone, without letting me respond. Then I call her again. She doens't pick it up and I get on an answering mashine. I tell her on the answering mashine that a neighbor was passing by, and since I was keeping her from my mom, I don't want that neighbor to know about her either, since he might mention it to my mom at some point. Thus I hanged up a phone. After the fact, I realize that a neighbor would not know whom I was talking to, so I didn't have to hang up a phone. But I need few seconds for my brain to figure this out. Since I am nearsighted, I didn't see him until he was only few meters away. Thus when I saw him so suddenly, I was simply scared and hanged the phone up instinctively, before my brain ever had time to realize that just because i am on a phone with SOMEBODY, he won't ever find out who that "somebody" is.

She didn't respond to that. I then sent her few more messages explaining it in simpler words. I also sent emails for that effect. Then finally I got a response from her that she wants me to call her after she gets from work. I call her. She then acts upset about the fact that I am keeping her from my mom, even though she knew about it for all these months and didn't care -- in fact, in her own words, at the beginning of a relationship she said "you have enough stress in your life and I don't want to add to that; imagine how stressful it would be if your parents don't approve of your girlfirend? If you want to keep me from your mom for two years, go for it". Yet when I tried to remind her of this, she no longer acknowledged she ever said it!

Anyway she was saying that if I was trully in love with her, I won't be keeping her from my family, in fact i would be happy to say I have a girlfriend. I told her that in my case it is the opposite: the more I am in love with someone the more I want to hide that person. After all I hide all of my "sensitive" feelings from my family, and the more I am in love the more sensitive it becomes. She was confused by this and kept insisting that if I keep her from my family I am "ashamed of her". I was telling her that I know for a fact that I am not ashamed of her and that I love her. And I know FOR A FACT that the more I am in love with someone the more I want to hide them, which is just the opposite to what she said. But she insisted that she knows me better than I do. She insisted that SHE knows what I feel, no matter how many times I tried to tell her otherwise.

Then towards the end of the conversation she said "do you realize that all I want is for you to be happy? How can you be happy when you keep so much things from your family?" Now that is another example when I am being told what I feel: I know for a fact that I am happy while keeping stuff from family. In fact lying to the family is as easy as breathing since I am so used to it so it doesn't make my life a bit harder. On the other hand being honest with them IS very distressing. But Anita knows better than me. She decided that I am happy when I am honest with them, which I know for a fact not to be the case.

I then told her that I was keeping things from my family since I was 12, and yet I was happy all the way until I was 21. She then said in a very mechanical voice "you just answered your own question" and hanged up a phone. I call her again. She picks up a phone, repeats the same words in the same mechanical voice "you just answered your own question", and hangs it up again. I then call her few more times. Finally I get a chance to ask her just what did she mean by my "having answered my own question". She says that I said that I was happy until I was 21, so by saying that I admitted I am not happy now (I was 26 at the time). this proved her point that I was not happy.

I then told her that the reasons for my not being happy has nothing to do with hiding from my mom. Instead, they have to do with poor progress in school, combined with some rejection that I have experienced from people other than her. Now, since these problems started when I was 21 while I was keeping things from my mom since I was 12, obviously keeping things from my family doesn't make me unhappy. She then responded by saying that I have a choice whether I want to "live in the past" or move into "wonderful future with love and acceptance" that she can provide. I said that yes I am willing to move into a future.

She then said that she is really happy that i am willing to move on and be happy. She went on to say that she loves me and she is very proud of my persistence that allowed me to stay in school, and all that stuff. So it seemed like she was now in good terms with me again, since she started talking in nice voice as always. So, as usually the case when I get a compliment, I counter a part of it, so I said that even though I was able to stay in school, still I won't be able to get ph.d. as early as I could have because of my lack of progress in the past. Then she immediately responds "apparently, you are not happy" and hangs up a phone.

I then started sending her like 20 messages telling her that I didn't mean things are horrible, I meant they are not perfect. And the only reason I said it is that this is the way I react to compliments. And I even started listing her the things I AM happy about in these messages. Then an hour later I get a message from her saying "I listened to all of your messages, and I haven't heard a single one of them that says 'Anita, please don't break up with me', therefore, I am breaking up with you". In other words, she decided that I want her to break up with me, since I haven't said otherwise. But I know for a fact I did NOT want her to break up -- if I did, why would I keep pestering her with all this? But again she knows better what is in my head. Even though I know for a FACT I didn't want her to break up, she decided that I did!.

Then I sent her an email with a title "Anita, please don't break up with me" and in that email I told her that the only reason I didn't say it in the answering mashine is that I assumed that my intention was self-evident. She then responded by saying that sheh doesn't want me to say that. In that message she simply meant that "this was the point of the whole thing". Then I asked her what WAS the "point of the whole thing". She responded "the point is that you have to be happy. Being in a relationship with me does not mean you are happy; hiding things from people doesn't solve your unhappinness. Your unhappinness and unwillingness to change is what brought us to where we are". Now that is another example when she was telling me what I think: she decided for me that being in a relationship doesn't make me happy, while I know that this is not the case. That is not so much the case right now, but back in 2006 I almost defined my happiness based on my relationship status. Yet, she claimed that she knows better what makes me happy and what doesn't.

Anyway, finally she left me a message in the answering mashine, and this time again she was extremely nice, and she said "I love you; it concerns me that you are not happy ... I don't want to break up with you ... please call me tonight". So I called, and we got back together and everything was great.

Then I went to the tour to Israel. We were in great terms when I left, and while there we were writing to each other every day the first half of the trip. But she didn't respond to my last email that I sent somewhere in the middle of the trip, so I didn't email her since then as I was waiting for her response. I started to worry that may be she doesn't like me, but I didn't show it. I didn't send her any repeated email at all. I just kept my cool and waited for her response to that one. Anyway, when I got back from the tour, I emailed her that I was back. She responded few minutes later with "its raining and everything seems so fresh and new, to me it is, and thats where I say goodbye to you".

Then I started to email her asking her just why is she breaking up with me now, I thought we settled everything? No response for few days. Then few days later she simply calls me by phone. I asked her why did she break up. She said she didn't. Then I asked her what about that poem that she sent. She said that by "good bye" she meant " have a nice trip". I then told her that I received that poem AFTER I came back from that trip! She told me that she sent it to me before I left. Then I asked how come I didn't get it till I came back? She said she doesn't know she has to check. I also asked her how come I got it exactly few minutes after I emailed her that I was back. She said it must have been a glitch of some kind.

Anyway, I BELIEVED HER that she sent it before the trip, goodbye meant "have a nice trip" and some computer glitch was the reason i only got it when I came back. So since I believed her, I was just fine. Furthermore, her entire conversation that night was EXTREMELY nice and sheltering. She kept appologizing for making me worried, asking me if I was okay. She even told me that she was seeing some friends that day but she excused herself in order to call me because she realized I was really worried. So because of all these things she said OF COURSE I believed her.

However, my voice was weak. Why? Because during the past few days when I THOUGHT (past tense) she broke up with me, my body BECAME weak as a result of all these worries. Now, when I finally learned she didn't break up, my body is still weak, after all, it can't change its chemistry within just few seconds. There were also additional reasons why my body was weak. For example, the jetlag I experienced after comming from Israel to USA. Also, my experience in Israel wasn't the best one either, since everyone was making fun of me due to my Asperger. So combination of all these made my body weak.

But anyway, I didn't figure out all these reasons within the few minutes of our subsequent phone conversation. So when she started asking me whether I was okay, I was saying yes. When she asked me why was my voice so upset, I simply said "I don't know". Then she kept asking me in a very caring way to take a deep breath and tell her just what it is I feel, whether I feel any discomfort, etc. Then finally I told her that I "am now okay, just still feel shaky" as a result of having been worried the whole day. I forgot to stress the fact that it is in past tense, simply because I assumed she knows that I believed her. Also, I didn't explain this whole body chemistry thing either, because I assumed that the word "shaky" describes it. Anyway, then again she tells me to take a deep breadth. And after I took few deep breaths over a phone she tells me to go to bed, and call her tomorrow morning.

Well, tomorrow morning I call her, and I am told that my phone is blocked off. I then try to call her from pay phones to ask her just why did she block off the phone. I don't even have time to say hello, the moment she hears my voice she simply hangs up a phone. Then I email her asking her to explain what went on. She responds "don't call me, don't email me, I want nothing to do with you". I then send her an email where I said that I am sorry for whatever I did. I am not sure what it is, but whatever it is, I am really sorry. Then she responded by telling me that what I did is that I immediately "went into pouting stage the last time we talked", and then she added "it is like every time you don't have your way with me, you either outpout or get all depressed".

Now that is another example of telling me what I felt. I know for a fact that I was NOT pouting. I was simply tired! Furthermore, I know for a fact that it had nothing to do with "not getting my way with her" since she explained to me that she didn't break up and I belived her. But she thinks she knows me better than I do, so she thinks I was pouting even though I know I weren't I then started to send her emails about this whole body chemistry thing that I explained few paragraphs earlier, and how my body chemistry made my voice weak. She simply responded by to me by saying that her issue with me is that I always argue and now I continue to do the same thing. I told her that I just think there was misunderstanding that I need to clarify. She simply responds by saying "you wanted to treat me as a child, and i refuse to do it. What kind of misunderstanding is it?".

Now here is another example of telling me what I wanted. Even though she didn't specify what she was referring to by "treating me as a child", I suspect it included asking me to take deep breaths and stuff while pouting. Now did *I* want it? No! I barely knew why she was making all this fuss with deep breaths anyway! She ASSUMED I wanted it, and so she has to break up with me because she "refuses to do it". Don't you see a parallel with how professors ASSUMED that I wanted to work EXACTLY on my own stuff, and they refused to supervise me, because they "couldn't do it" either?

So anyway, let us now summarize all the times when she told me what I felt (see the above underlined parts in order to locate them):

1) Back at the time when no one wanted to be my advisor, she was too scared to meet me because she ASSUMED being depressed might cause me to dump her. I know for a fact this is not the case: when I am depressed I cling to the person I am with since that is the one and only option for me to ever have anything good in my life. If there is any time I would dump a girl, that would be when I am happy and secure with everything else. For example, right now I don't mind too much that I am single since my career is in order. That was NOT the case in 2006!

2) When I sent her a list of questions in order to selebrate the fact that I managed to stay in school, she TOLD me it means that I don't trust her, even though I know it not to be the case. In fact, I took her for granted which is why I assumed it is okay to use her this way. Taking someone for granted is what I do when I DO trust them.

3) At some point I was talking to her on the phone, and packing to go to Israel at the same time. Because I was packing, my breath was a bit more intense than usual. But she decided I was really upset and kept asking me if everything is okay, and suggesting I take a deep breath, etc.

4) She told me that if I hide her from my family it means I am not in love with her. I know for a fact it is the opposite. If I am not in love with the person, there is nothing sensitive about them, so I might as well talk about them to my family, why not? But if I am in love with them, then too many sensitive feelings are associated with this, hence I want to hide this person in order to hide my feelings. It is similar to when I see a really attractive girl I would deliberately avoid looking at her since I will try not to give away my feelings. But when a girl is not attractive then I might as well look at her, why not?

5) She told me that if I keep so much from my family it might be hard for me, and all this hardship will make me unhappy. But I know for a fact that keeping things from my family is as easy as breathing because i was practicing it since I was 12. I do it unconsciously -- in fact if my mom calls me and randomly asks where I am, my first automatic response will probably be a lie even though there is nothing wrong with the actual location I am at. It is just that the part of the brain that processes what I say to my family is completely different from the one that processes reality, which is why it is so easy to lie. Just like it is easy to do a physics problem and pretend there are some blocks sliding even though there are none! But, despite all that, Anita decided for me that it must be hard for me to lie. On the other hand, she decided that if I tell the truth i will be happier. But I know that it is not the case:

6) She pointed out that none of my messages said "Anita, please don't break up with me". This seems to imply that she decided I wanted her to break up, since I haven't said otherwise. But I know for a fact that I don't: after all I was pestering her with all these calls/emails specificallyl because i DIDN"T want to break up! Yet she assumed I wanted it.

7) She decided that if I am unhappy then being in a relationship is not an answer. Again, I know that it WAS an answer for me since I was judging myself based on my relationship status. But again, she decided that she knows better

8 ) She decided I was "pouting" at the last conversation, even though I was not.

Now notice this: every time, her concern was about ME, not her. Even at the last conversation when I was "pouting", she was OVERLY SHELTERING and she was REALY REALLY nice as she was asking me to take these deep breaths and were apologizing for making me worried. That is why I was so surprised that she blocked me, since she was so really nice at the last conversation.

So since she was so nice, how do you make sense of her blocking me? Perhaps she thinks she does me a favor by the block? If so, this again shows that she thinks she konws my feelings better than I do. After all, I don't like being blocked, but she thinks she does me a favor. Could that be a key for some of YOUR nice ppl you had to interact with?

Let me stress something out. Anita was one of the nicest people I ever met. She spent HOURS trying to console me when I was in trouble in school. She was overly sheltering this whole time asking me to take deep breadths and all that. So relationship lasted 5 months. Everything I described here is just hte very last month. First four months she was overly nice to me 100%. And even this last month she continued to be nice in many occastions, including the pouting one! Yet, she also was the one who blocked me out the way she did. Did THAT ever happen to you on that level?

And again, notice an alanogy with the professors. They cared about me, too. And they, too, were far TOO nice to me. They were concered about my not being content with research topic, or my not being content in working without pay, despite the fact that both were just fine as far as I am concerned. But apparently they cared about me much more than I did, which is why they were not fine with all these hardships they were goin to put me through, even though for me it was just fine. Yet, as much as they cared about me, they didn't seem to care that I might get expelled. Don't you see the similarity with Anita, who also cared about things that *I* don't care about, such as my level of "happiness", yet she doesn't care at all of what I might go through if she dumps me "out of caring for me"?

Now is this the kind of thing you were referring to when you said that ppl decide for you what it is you feel?



Yes that is exactly what happens with me.

Last edited by Roman on 30 Jan 2010, 6:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

No, absolutely not.

When I don't agree with what someone says, I'll tell them so and start a conversation about it. I never realise the other person sees it as arguing. When I do this with my mum, she gets all annoyed and says I'm being rude and all the usual crap, but I don't even notice I'm doing anything wrong, it's just how I converse!

Yet another advantage of talking to other Aspies!

The following is a conversation I had with a friend a while back. I suspect it might be a good example of an AS and an NT person communicating.

I was putting water in the kettle to make tea for two people. I filled it up to the 0.5 litre mark. My friend said, "That is not enough water for two cups of tea". I replied that it was, because the cups were smaller than average mugs, and an average mug contains half a pint (a UK pint = 568ml) each, so considering that these cups were smaller and that we were both going to have milk, 250ml each would be adequate. He said that he didn't care about all that; he didn't need to calculate anything but could just SEE that the water would not be sufficient.

Then he said "OK, do it your way" so we did. To my surrpise, it turned out that there was not enough water and we had to boil more.

My friend was very happy because he thought he had won something and proved me wrong.

To my mind, all we had proved was that the markings on the kettle were inaccurate. I had learned something about his particular kettle.

@Roman -
It's a shame you had to go through all that nastiness with Anita and Jennifer. It sounds like they had communication difficulties of their own.

I don't know if I have AS or not but I certainly have something in common with people who do, at the very least. And I think it would not be out of place for me to suggest that what "people like us" often want is simple, straightforward, honest communication. That's all I have ever wanted. If having AS makes you want simple and straightfoward communication, and people who are supposedly "NT" are not able to give you that, then my question is: Who is the one with the problem, really?

Regarding the issue with my boyfriend - we have a very good relationship, and this is just one thing that is not perfect about it. I think he half believes his senses and half believes me. I don't know if continuing to discuss it will help. I don't know if he will even want to discuss it. If that is the way it is, then so be it. I am happy with our relationship being almost perfect.

On the other hand, I have only recently suggested to him that I might have AS. So I might bring up the subject again in this light. I have found this thread extremely interesting because the problems some people describe are so similar to mine that I find myself shouting "Yes!" when I read some of the posts! It does seem as though the kind of misunderstandings people talk about here might be particularaly common in (although of course not universal in, or exclusive to) people with AS. So maybe this will give us both a new way of dicussing and understanding the issue.

I've found the edit button now... LOL!

It never occured to you that your calculations were innaccurate? You think that an innaccurately marked kettle is more likely than you making an error??! !??! ! That's actually pretty comical. Perhaps you forgot to calculate in that when water boils, some of it is lost to steam. If you forget to factor in that steam loss, you will put in too little water.

I am the same way, I can't say I have learned as well as you to control my twitch to correct the answer (If I believe I know the correct answer, especially if it's my main interest), but I feel I am getting better at just being quiet. If it has to do with my particular interest and someone is forceful and says i'am wrong I can become quite argumentative, otherwise I try to just keep quiet. This is just me, think like NT's it depends on the Aspie.

It is my personal experience that often people will lock onto something as an absolute truth without always taking into account that someone else may see a situation differently (perhaps due to lack of empathy, or maybe as a function of cognitive bias where seeing the situation differently would necessarily induce cognitive dissonance, or maybe just because they are lazy, or because their particular set of knowledge and understanding at this time makes the possibility of sensibly viewing the situation in some other way seem implausible to them, or perhaps for some other reason) or may have had different life experiences. And further that the overwhelming majority of people who in my personal experience behave this way are not Autistic, and are not viewed as being particularly argumentative relative to others.

What you are describing in respect of people with AS is actually a common behavior of people, including those who are not perceived by others as being particularly argumentative, and so it is not an adequate explanation of why people with AS would be or appear (to others) to be more than typically argumenatative.

If you would like an example, take the fact that we have experienced being ourselves as individuals, you have not had this experience. We have presented our way of looking at our own behavior; you do not appear to have any particular good cause to doubt the accuracy of what we are describing, yet you apparently refuse to take into account that we may see things differently due to have personal experiences that you have not had, and instead appear entirely locked on to your "absolute truth", whilst also demonstrating a lack of cognitive empathy (what posters are describing in respect of yourself does not appear, based on your comments, to be something that you have understood or to have been able to relate to) and your decision to shove your views down our throat without even considering that we might in fact be quite right about what we describe, even though the subject matter might well be one we are sensitive about and even though your responses might in the circumstances be hurtful or denigrating from our point of view, demonstrates a lack of emotional empathy too.

None of which is particularly exceptional behavior evidently....what you have done here is perfectly ordinary behavior for people, including non-Autistic people. In fact, the overwhelming majority of people who behave this way are not Austistic.

I am aware of this. The assumption that I am not aware of this because I have Aspergers Syndrome is prejudicial and denigrating. I have already stated that I am aware of this previously. So why put this comment here in response to what I have said (and so apparently directed at me) unless, you continue to assume I am not aware of this, despite the evidence of my own assertion, and in the absence of any evidence that I am unaware of this, all apparently simply because I have AS?



I have read the responses in this thread. I have read people describe explanations that are plausible and sufficient explainations. What I have not read is any good reason to dismiss these explanations, nor any good reason to prefer an explanation that applies equally to people who do not have Autism and who are not viewed as particularly argumentative. I have read you dismiss our explanations and our experience out of hand, just as though because it is not an experience you have personally had, you cannot conceive that it could be anyone else's experience, exactly as though you lack the empathy to understand that others have experiences different to your own. In my reading, one thing that seems strongly indicated it is that you are locked on your own notion as to what is the "absolute truth" here, and seem quite unable to effectively employ empathy or even recognise that others might have knowledge that you cannot directly access, as a result of their having experiences that you have not ever had.

Given your comments and conduct in this thread, your assessment of why people with AS might appear more argumentative (or actually be more argumentative) than people without AS is deeply ironic.


To recap:
it has posited that if people with AS do argue more frequently than others it is because they argue where there is more than one right answer. If it is statistically likely that when a person argues it is about a situation for which there is more than one right answer because the world is overwhelmingly full of situations that have more than one right answer, this applies equally to people who argue frequently and to people who argue infrequently and so cannot explain differences in the frequency of argumentation.

At any rate the application of statistics to arrive at such a conclusion is a gross misapplication of statistics.

For statistics to be useful (to drawing conclusions, and therefore as any form of justification for a particular conclusion) they have to be used appropriately. Assuming all things are equal is not appropriate when working with statistics. Your misuse of statistics fails to give any consideration to relevant factors that might mitigate the commonality factor you base your conclusion on. The fact is the majority of the earths surface is covered in water. If we take no other factor into account then humans who live on the earth are statistically likely to live in a place that is covered in water (such as the ocean floor). Yet very obviously, in reality the overwhelming majority of people do not live under water at the bottom of the ocean.

I don't argue
yes I do
no I don't yes I do
shut up
no you shut up
no you shut up
shut up
no you shut up
i said shut up
no


Yeah, I argue- even with myself

According to other people I argue. I have gotten comments like "You would be a good lawyer." "You should be a lawyer." "You're good at arguing" "You get right to the point" "You love to argue." Those are compliments I get so people do like what I do. But my husband doesn't see us as having an argument. He sees it as a discussion. He has his own definition of arguing. I can't think of the times when I have gotten "Why do you have to be right?" "Do you always have to be right?"

I used to get accused of arguing all the time because I was always correcting people, asking questions, trying to understand things, and I would always point things out.

It seems like I can't stop because when I speak, I think 80% of it is an argument. I don't do it on purpose and I don't know when I am doing it. I was accused of being snippy on another forum.

@Janissy -

Of course! Steam! Thank you

We use logic to draw conclusions based on premises, so the answer to the original question is "yes."