AS-D The view to "Disorder"

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You are living in a fool's paradise.

Recently I had a conversation with a married couple about their 9 yo son, assuming from their description that he may be on the spectrum or have a mild degree of MR or both. He's asocial, hard to deal with, and always plays with computers and hand-units of every kind. They are desperate about his future, so I suggested them he should learn more on the field of his interest, computers, despite they said his talent in computers wasn't strong in comparison to other children's. If he can master a profession, it's highly unlikely he wouldn't be satisfied with an IT job (assuming he gets one), even though there would be others who become much more successful on the same filed (better job, higher salary, manager status etc.). It's not a prerequisite to have more knowledge on a specific field than others to be contributive to society.

In economics, the law of comparative advantage says something similar. See Wiki. The only condition is to be relatively more efficient on a specific field. Of course, human relationships may be different, but it's a nice idea, anyway.

That made me think of how often, you're also (suddenly) not disabled if people don't see that you lack the ability to do it the same way as them, but if you manage to do the same or something similar in a different way that suits you more. I got the impression that people have a hard time to imagine there is more to someone than they can see and hear.

If they see me succeeding at finding my way around a train station, they assume it took me as much or as little effort as them. They never had the chance to learn about what all can go wrong and what all can pose a difficulty in a train station, because they experience that and the way their body and brain work differently.

They can't imagine or even be understanding towards what they don't know exists, I guess.

Of course that goes for those achievements I don't have to put into as much effort as others too. I don't like such praise, it's wrong and pointless.

If I calmly present an argument to someone that supposedly non-verbally intimidates the person who accompanies me, people might think I was so brave to talk back and really good in social situations. In reality though, I was not intimidated at all, because social hierarchies don't intimidate me nor do non-verbal cues I don't perceive emotionally. I didn't do much and need no recognition of an achievement, because I didn't need to overcome something the way the would.

At the same time, it probably did cost me quite a bit to actually form the words and say them out loud, but others often do not imagine that to be a difficulty even when they know of my autism. If I can talk, it must be easy for me. They think that because they don't personally know that talking can be a more complex action for me than for them.

That is why I enjoy working with children with disabilities. I may not spontaneously see the same as someone else would because I'm quite different from most people, but I also spontaneously see something others do not. A lot of the time, the children will discover more things they can do if people perceive different sides to them and encourage them in trying even if another adult is in doubt about it.

Well I would say it is a disorder because for me it has always made social interaction very difficult(I am not a hermit so yes it does bother me when I cannot express myself in social situations), this could be more depression related but I come of as slow a lot of the time regardless of the fact I am actually very intelligent......so I have had people call me ret*d and pleanty of other things.

And some specific things I have experianced that make me belive it is a disorder:
Not being able to address people by name unless I know them well
Not being able to make eye contact
Not being able to adequetly express things verbally especially if stressed.
Taking longer to process outside stimuli and thus coming off as 'slow'
spacing out(maybe that is not just an AS thing)
Sensorary senstivity.....I cannot stand florecent lights, too bright of lighting, I am noise sensative and I have some other sensativities.

Though there are some positive things I have experianced like:
Being able to sense a coming storm
turning off a t.v and thus saving electricity when it appeared to be off but I could hear that slight electrical buzzing noise.
High intelligence, but I am sure there are people without AS also have high intelligence and not everyone with AS has a higher level of intelligence.

4 pages already filled with very many and different as well as complex posts. WOW!

Ok, I understand more and more about the advantages and disadvantages of being an Aspie.

I learned to act NT like, I am able to use smaltalk, I learned in some degree to sale me or something to others. I find my way around in airports, trainstations or whatever. I know the dangers such places have to me, I know I can fight a overload by taking triptane medicine (against migrane it works for me). If I have the time to plan a trip where I have to go through train stations or airports, I can prepare about what I will have to deal with. I can do speeches to 10 or 20 people, if I have the time to prepare, I even can do business IT training to single or small groups. I had to learn all of that the hard way. But please do not ask if I enjoy being able to do all of that or if I enjoy actualy doing it. Many social activities and interactions I learned to do, but I do not enjoy it. if I have to do it a longer time period, the people whom are close to me always telling me that they find me dong it in a funny special way. They like it, they like that I am somewhat different. Always friendly, alsways smiling as long as someone could watch me. Only the people wo are realy close to me like my wife, knows how I am in private. She always carries emergency medicine with her for me against headache (triptane), she knows when I am close to go into a overload, etc. She knows to talk directly to me without using too many words in between. She learned that when she addresses me directly that it will not offend me. Reading bodylanguage while speaking with people is very exhausting to me. I can do that in little groups for a short time periode, but only when I am at full strength! I realy do not like all this social gameplaying, but I studie it very much. I have almost no empathy for it. I can analyze the social behavior of someone and try to o something against bullying, but I wil never truly understand why people do it.

Back to topic: being open to NTs that you are a Aspie or you are somehwere else in the autistic spectrum in Germany, will almost for sure turn others against you thinking you are a handycaped and disabled person and almost useless in the business world. Yes, some autists and aspies are so much impaired that they are unable to have a indipendend life on their own.

How long is it known? It started in the middle of the 90th that more and more mostly children got diagnosed. And more and more knowledge and scientific research about it builds up. But in countries like USA,, the research is much better and more psychiatrists and psychologists are getting this and can specialize themself to autism. But in Germany the numbers of specialisted doctors are very low. Much more are secialised rather to ADHD than to ASD or AS.

So prejudice being ret*d, having a illness or alike is very much spread within the population of Germany.
Same like very many think that ADHD is a illness that can be treated and goes away with puberty! Parents get told that their child is ill and needs treatment and support but will grow out of it in puberty. We all know that is big BS! But very many doctors are telling such s**t to parents still today!

So, who defines what ASD is? Scientists or the typical population around you? Who defines what is normal and what not?
Who is reading science magazines and science books? Who clarifies about ASD to the folk? So many children are thrown into alternative schools for ret*d and disabled children, just because they cannot cope with the social gameplay within the school everydays. It is getting better but realy slowly that ADHD and ASD gets a young diagnosis and these children are getting support and not thrown out of the regular schools. But still, more psychaitrists and psychologists knowing about ADHD, but very little about ASD in Germany.

Yes, we have impairments having ASD. But many of us are able and are willing to learn to compensate these problems. We can find our way and still be a worthy part of the community, being a worthy employee with just being a little weird and a little bit different.

Disorder = disfunction = failure to function properly in a normal way and manner

Yes, some autists and Aspies have a disorder, cannot live on their own being 18+ and cannot go having a regular job. But many mostly grown up autists and aspies have learned to and are just showing up being socialy weird. Do they endanger insurance companies with having ASD? If you have such a diagnosis, you will get rejected by so many insurance companies in Germany, it ain't funny at all! Support for adult ASD in germany? No waaay! You have that stamp and may get just along never ever get any real help from the unemployment help system in Germany, but with the stamp being unable to find a normal job, you do not must find one anymore. Ok. But will you get more money? Nope! If you have a 60% handycap status, you will get some extra cash. But in most cases having a mild form of autism or being an Aspie but not totaly unable to work, you will get none support at all! Aspies can be able to build up a company on their own, cooperate with some others and even grow bigger having employees. But with the stamp having ASD, you wil never ever get a private health insurance or any other insurance for your company. Almost all will reject you in Germany. Even being a NT or just do not have an ASD diagnosis, it is enough to have been in psy-treatment withing the last 5 years to get rejected when you need an private health insurance!

Let us call it a Autistic Spectrum Impairment and not allways in aly case a Disorder. Some have a disorder, others have just a impairment being of the autistic spectrum, some can compensate in many departments and areas, just getting through being somewhat weird. I realy do not like this generalized stamp of having a function failure withing my brain wiring and chemistry. Within the folk of specialisted scientists i would have none problems having this stamp, but they are able to understand better than the normal guy of the street, your co-worker or employer. You get a normal job somewhere, learned to deal with the typical problems a ASD person has and you are able to compensate and do your job. Your co-workers like you ,just thinking friendly you are just a little weird. Now you come out with having ASD, being an autist or aspie. You try to tell your co-worker what that means. But he is not able to listen to you longer that 2 to 5 minutes, having prejudices about autism and just is unable to fully understand what you are telling him. How long will it take that about every co worker will treat you like you are realy badly ret*d and have a hard disorder???? Your department boss will have a little chat with you if you are ok and able to do your job or even suggest leaving the company... that would be the way it would happen in Germany.

In every contract you find the passus about that you sign you have no illness or disorder which compromise your working skilles, (includes all as well the needed social skilles) doing the tasks your job and company gives to you. Now, no matter if you can do the job, as soon as some boss hears that you have some sort of autism, it will lead them to think that you are not able to do your job, you have lied signing the contract etc. and get fired. You may start a lawsuit, but what will you get out of one? Getting some money, neither you or your company would want you back as an employee after winnig the fighting through a lawsuit against discimination etc. In Germany winning such a lawsuit will get you like not more than maybe 3 to 6 month of salary.

ASD or ASI = Disorder or Impairment ? What scientists researched and defined is not the same as the tyical, the normal typical folk think about it!

Same with me all the way, but I have learned to compensate almost all of these impairments.

It's not such a big deal not being able to memorizing names just by meeting them the first time to the next. I say I am not good at remember names so well and fast. That's ok. People accept it most of the time.

I learned to keep eyecontact. I do not like it. I have to concentrate hard to not loose focus what we are talking about while keeping eyecontact. But I learned it.

Yes, I have trouble talking when I am tired. But I know many NTs having the same problem not being able to focus what to say when they are tired and stressed.

Sensorary senstivity - well working as an IT Nerd - ehm specialist - EDV electronic specialist and IT administrator, it helps me being sensitiv. I already thought about buying glasses with some special color, so I can cope better with florecent lights. I can hear when a PSU is about to blow, I can smell if a PC doesnt start anymore because the PSU has blown up. Ok, what I realy do not like is to be able to smell if a women has her red days! I do not must be able to smell that! Or be able to smell if a woman has her fertile days. I am married and do not need to know such private stuff! But can we close or nose, blocking it off? I wish I could!

Yes I have some impairments but I learned to fit into a bussines branche where I can work. I will never work as a salesman selling stuff to people, make them believe they need it realy hard, stuff I would never buy myself. But still I find jobs where I fit in. So, I guess many of us are able to find a job somehow somehwere! So, do you have a brain function failure (disorder) or are you just a little weird having some impairments you may find a way around?

Why not see it like this: everybody no matter the "disorders" (as most people on this site likes to call any neurology that differs from NT) must live in a neurologic diverse world? For me NTs dont own the world because I have as much right to be here as anybody else, and I share the world with all the crazyness that exists here. I can accept anybody. Just because I dont want to join in on everything doesnt meen I dont accept it. I let people be like they want to be, and I want to have the same in return. Communication is important.

I cannot really hold a job, hence the reason why I am going to college and get college grants/loans to live on. And yes part of why I cannot seem to hold a job involves having AS......though I also have depression, PTSD and have always had anxiety issues so that also plays a role.

"have depression, PTSD and have always had anxiety issues so that also plays a role."

Yes, I know about depressions, PTSD and as well anxiety problems. I have them too. I guess my life is build uppon depressions and I got PTSD by have been bullied in school and that m parents had a hard time to go along being married, my father is an Aspie, my mother is not. They do not understand each other as well as my wife and I do. SoI had a hard time being their child as long as I was in reach of them.

My CV looks realy off the road. Had many jobs, was many times unemployed, 'till now could never hold a job longer than 2 years... hope it will improve by better understanding myself as being an aspie and so how to compensate better. The better your understand yourself, the better you can cope wit your impaiments.

Well the trouble is many of these imparments are not things I can compensate for...I have found ways of coping with some of these problems but they aren't going to go away. My brain is wired the way it is I cannot really pull my brain out of my head and fix the wiring so I can comprehend a conversation while making appropriate eye contact...nor can I fix it so that I process outside stimuli as quickly as an NT....this is only increased by the PTSD, Depression and Anxiety as those cause there to be a lot going on in my mind all the time which makes the processing even slower.

The fundamental structure of how your brain works may not be altered. But sure the brain wiring can be changed. Depressions can be cured, anxities as well. PTSD as well can be healed. I know myself I am long way away of being healed and I have trouble finding help, so I have to help myself with the support of my wife. i learned what causes depressions and what causes anxities and so on. By knowing what causes it, it helps you to deal with it avoiding falling into depressions again or catch you at the edge just befor you would fall.

These mental problems are treatable. Try to get help to get treatment. Once you have help you will cope better keeping a job for a longer time period.

Oh really? I was under the impression that being disabled means there's something I can't do. If I'm wrong, please let me know. Reading body language and facial expressions definitely is something I can't do as well as the average person. I would consider that to be an impairment. The other things really don't impair me, but as stated before, seem to be more of a matter of preference.



Well, that's not actually what I was going to say, but it's interesting that you use that analogy. Homosexuality was once considered to be a disorder. It was once considered a disability. Look how things have changed since then. As awareness increases, I wouldn't be surprised if AS will be taken off of the DSM.

But why do I think I have AS? AS explains why I've been weird (for lack of a better word) all my life. Notice how nowhere in that description did I say that I think I have AS because I'm mentally disabled. I have AS because my brain works differently. That's all there is to it. AS is nothing more than the word that describes in which ways my mind is different.

Well Depression, Anxiety and PTSD are not so much about wiring...AS kind of is because it is a difference in how the brain functions as a whole not just a illness like depression that specifically effects my mood. Also, I have tried therapy for all of these problems and anti-depressants for the depression.....the therapy does not seem to help and the anti-depressants made things worse in the sense I am still trying to regain more control of my emotions.

As for PTSD best case senerio you do recover at least most of the way, but it is not always cureable a lot of people with this disorder end up commiting suicide same with the Depression so that is two disorders where suicide rather common anyways....I think I do have some PTSD symptoms from being bullied as a kid and having parents who fought a lot and I have come to terms with a lot of that but what really did it was when I was in 10th grade and a girl got shot.......I had no immeadiate reaction(I was willing to acknowledge though the first thing to go was my enjoyment of reading books.) so I thought maybe it had not really effected me, and I was wrong. About a year later I started having invasive memories about it, worsened depression, and anxiety attacks in class, jumping even more than before at sudden noises(because of the AS I already had an issue with that, but its so much worse now) and I was getting drunk every night to forget and not feel it all. Oh and now its rather hard for me to focus on reading and I have to have background noise because focusing just on reading seems to stress me out.

And falling into depressions again? I never climbed out of any of them to begin with......I have been depressed ever since I can remember. And what treatment exactly do you think would help me find a job for a longer time period?

It depends on the people you meet and who decide about services. I receive the services for ASD that I wanted to have/need.

I did not apply for disability (the one who're talking about), I don't see how it could help me. It wouldn't benefit me much and I wouldn't want it to get in the way of applying for a job. Free/almost free public transportation for disability would be cool, but it's rare to get and I figured it isn't worth the effort to try and get it.

It was suggested to me I get enrolled in some sort of program designed for people with AS to get them into employment, but I turned that down for the time being. It didn't appeal to me at all and my plans for life are different. I was positively surprised that there is such a thing for unemployed people with AS though.

As for insurances, that goes for most countries and most disorders besides autism too. It's a hassle, really, because statutory health insurance has a long way to go yet. They didn't even pay AD(H)D meds until recently.



But why tell a person you are autistic if you're doing okay?

I'm not sure about what motivates someone to reveal their ASD diagnosis if there is no need to. I don't tell even the nicest and most understanding person if there's no need for that person to know.

I do tell a lot of people though, because it affects my abilities and my relationships with people. These people need to know about my autism in order to understand that my autistic behaviour has nothing to do with wanting to do things differently, but that I simply must do lots of things differently.

You know, like routines. I don't like routines, but I sure need them. And while I have social impairment, I am into social work, because I want to. People don't understand that I need something they don't if they don't know about my ASD.

And taking AS out of the DSM would be incredibly harmful to those of us who need accommodations. While you are lucky to have only minor inconveniences, some of us /do/ need accommodations and saying that we are "only weird" and don't have anything that allows for accommodations would hurt people like me.

I was able to get through college with only help from professors by having some classes which I wanted to take where I skipped a majority of classes because of not being able to make it there because of the scents in the building. I had to walk out of classes because of the florescent lights giving me too much of a headache. I had a social group that was very knowledgeable about AS and found it amusing when I wore safety glasses and a cloak around.

I've not been able to find a job in over a year of searching, and I'm sure that its been made more difficult because of my AS. Because AS is considered a disability I'm getting help from the state agency that supports finding disabled people jobs that match their abilities and difficulties.
I'm fully aware that I won't be able to work without accommodations, this has caused major arguments between my parents and I because they don't believe that I can notice such small amounts of smoke, cleaners, and such. I do notice them and they cause migraines. I got through college by leaving if I needed to. This won't be an option in the workforce. I won't be able to only go to places 30% of the "required" time (I did this for classes - 9 total classes of 28 classes). So instead, I have a diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome, which includes in my diagnosis that I need accommodations and I'm working with that to try to find employment.


You're lucky. Not all of us can get away with only being different and not getting the help that labeling something as a disorder gets us.


I don't want to be different than I am. I don't want to be NT, I don't want to be cured. But there is no way that my Asperger's isn't a disability.


And really, from how you've been talking I don't know whether you'd be diagnosable and not just considered BAP. Even if you aren't diagnosable, it is still reasonable for you to recognize your autistic traits and be involved in communities like this, but you really need to realize that from your descriptions, you have it much easier than many of us do. You not having things you can't do, doesn't mean that AS doesn't cause people to not be able to do things. I am pretty sure that I will never be able to drive because of my AS.

They're not taking AS out of the DSM, guys. They're merging it into a general autism spectrum disorder category. Sheesh... you'd think people would have got that by now. They're not declaring that you suddenly no longer have any problems and don't need help; they're just saying that autism is autism and it's a spectrum instead of a bunch of awkwardly partitioned little disorders that haven't got any meaning on their own.

As for autism being a cultural identity rather than a disability: I think it can be. There are a lot of people who have autistic brain wiring but who aren't disabled, and can't be diagnosed; but who think a lot like diagnosed autistics. Without any impairment, they are technically not autistic, but they do often self-diagnose or identify as "person with autistic traits", or "broader autism phenotype". They are culturally autistic, just like someone who is hard-of-hearing but uses primarily sign language can be culturally Deaf.

However, for the purposes of the medical diagnosis, it makes no sense to say "autism is not a disability". For the purposes of psychology and medicine rather than sociology, the people who are not diagnosable are not autistic; and those who are will by definition have that significant impairment--i.e., a disability.

Some autistics reject the idea that they're disabled because disability carries along with it some myths that they know are not true about them. So, for the record:
Disabled people can and do have strong talents.
Disability does not mean you are inferior in any way.
Disability does not make you automatically an object of pity.
Disability does not mean you need to be cured.
Disability does not make you incompetent.
Disability does not mean you cannot live on your own, have a job, fall in love, have a family, or be independent. Specific impairments can prevent those things, but disability as a whole is not at all incompatible with them.
Disability does not need to be obvious or extreme. It can be mild and invisible, too.
Disability does not mean you need to feel sorry for yourself. In fact, I recommend you do not.
Disability does not hinder your potential for happiness and satisfaction in life.
Disability does not stop you from pursuing your goals. Prejudice might, but disability will not. Whether you'll reach your goals is uncertain, but it is uncertain for everyone.

Get rid of all that crap and all the crap related to it, and what do you have left?--A simple statement that your skill set doesn't match the skill set your society is set up for. That's a neutral thing. Disability is a neutral thing. It can even be a positive part of your identity. Just the way people are proud of being gay or black or whatever, you can be proud of being disabled. Sure, you didn't do anything to be born autistic; but that's not the point. Liking who you are isn't a matter of thinking yourself superior.