Why are neurotypicals worth mimicking?

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You don't need "resources" to become a homeless bum. That's the beauty of being a homeless bum.

If "society" is so terrible, drop out. It's as simple as that. Complaining on an internet forum, or complaining in general, doesn't do anything to "challenge" society.

"Society" is not "bad." Our society just benefits some people more than others. If we change society, it will STILL benefit some more than others. If we change society a third time, it will STILL benefit some more than others. There's no particular reason to alter society for the sole purpose of providing for your personal happiness. It's your individual responsibility to provide for your own happiness, not "society's."

IMHO: as a primate, it's your evolutionary heritage to seek social status. You become depressed when you fail to achieve social status. Placing yourself "above" others causes your brain to release "happy" chemicals because primates with higher social status survive longer. That's why we have threads like this wherein "socially frustrated" people place themselves "above" everyone else in "society." It makes them feel good. It's the same mechanism that drives bullies.

Ironically, threads like this, that complain about the greed and selfishness of society, are, in fact, greedy and selfish.

And are you seriously trying to tell me I am being selfish.......lol the reason I bring up my situation specifically is because that is the only one I can talk about from a first person point of view. But considering how much I tend to put others first I am more upset about other people getting screwed by this society that is why I've had issues with this society since before I was an adult and realised I'm also screwed. So yeah I don't see how any of this makes me a greedy selfish person.

Also sure I might be human which is a type of primate........but I don't see how social status would make me any less depressed, I have no desire to be better then everyone else or anything like that. I like to treat others how i like to be treated and stuff like that. Also I think it is really ignorant that you would say depression is caused by not being superior to others you really think my depression will be cured if I learn to behave like a bully? thats a load of BS.

"Bad" is subjective. How is your father being "screwed?" How would you change it so he doesn't get "screwed?"



You're angry with "society" because you're not happy. You want "society" to change so you'll be happy. From a strictly practical viewpoint, that's being selfish.

Not that selfishness is strictly a "bad" thing, however.....

Society is not responsible for providing for personal "happiness." That would result in a nightmare.



First, by pretending to be "smarter" or "more moral" than other people, you're already behaving like a bully (not you specifically, but other people in this thread). This bullcrap about how "society" is bad, and other people are "bad (or ignorant, deluded, stupid, ect.)" for participating in "society" isn't anything besides a grab for "superiority." We're better than they are!! Bah. This is the same mechanism bullies operate on.

As for the rest, read I, Mammal and Chimpanzee Politics to get a better understanding of how our evolutionary heritage compels us to seek "social status."

Oh so now I am pretending to be smarter or more moral than other people? well first off I never claimed to be smarter or more moral than anyone. I am the way I am and I don't think the way I am is inherantly wrong......and I don't see how I am behaving like a bully? why because I'm an idealist who would like to see a better world in which everyone could have a decent life and I dislike the idea of a system based on competition?

please point out where I insulted anyone, claimed to be better then anyone, claimed to be smarter, claimed to be more moral.....I mean if I am in fact being a bully I don't want to be, so be specific so I can correct this if its what you feel is going on. Because as it stand now I am rather confused and I feel more like you're putting ideas and words in my mouth I never expressed.

I did not say society is 'bad' I did not say any people were 'bad', nor did I say anyone was stupid......I did say ignorant because I think it is kind of ignorant to say depression is caused by not being superior to other people it seemed you were implying I should try to be superior to people if I don't want to be depressed.

I am one of those people that gets bullied and opposses bullying.....treat others how you want to be treated is my philosophy so I am really confused about how I came off as a bully by explaining why I don't really like this society.

In other words, he's been "screwed" because he hasn't achieved the "status" you feel he's deserved relative to the amount of work you've feel he's done?



"Greed" is not an either/or orientation. Most people are both selfish and selfless to vary degrees at different points in time.

And "better" is also a subjective term. Making things "better" in this context generally refers to people obtaining more resources for themselves (jobs, food, material possessions, ect.). However, we inevitably run into the problem of who gets what and when (which is the entire foundation of politics), and how much of what people should get and what means they should have to employ to get it.

Once we begin trying to solve these issues we run the risk of creating a society where other people aren't "benefiting" as much as others. And even if we managed to grant equality of opportunity, equality of opportunity does not guarantee equality of outcome. We're always going to have people who feel they're being "screwed." A society that benefits me is not objectively "better" than a society that benefits someone else.



If you re-read my quote, I was referring to other people on this thread, not you.

But it was easy to miss. Once again, I wasn't actually referring to you with that statement.

Well no its more like he's really been trying and has been quite negatively effected by the fact he has not really gotten much out of all the work he's put in....I realise you are trying to even make that about me but its not its about my dad. I belive I have explained in various threads my particular problems with how society effects me but I wanted to mention how things have been for my dad as an example of someone else who has not been benifitting.

And yes everyone is a bit selfish, and everyone has some selfless moments.......I just don't feel selfish is something that really defines me as a person. I mean obviously I care about getting food, water and enjoyment of things for myself but I am not all about me.

And wow I am an idiot....maybe I've totally misunderstood whats going on, if you were not referring to me with all that.

Last edited by Sweetleaf on 02 Dec 2011, 5:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.

People can speak for themselves, but I think this kind of thing is overrepresented in our society. I mean look at the language we use. We talk about people who've become wealthy as "successful".

But what about scientists? I'm sure for some it's about prestige and reputation, but most are also driven by their curiosity. Discovery can be its own reward, being "first" and having your name on something is simply a bonus.

What about people who try to make the world a better place through charitable actions and volunteer work? What about fire fighters and rescue workers who save lives? Few of these people become wealthy or achieve a high "social class", so somehow according to our society they are not as "successful" as some hotshot CEO douchebag.

Overcoming depressed has a lot more to due with finding meaning in life, which may or may not have anything to do with achieving social status. And finding meaning often has a lot to do with having the right brain chemistry and neurological wiring to find life rewarding. Of course, not being constantly put down and dragged through the mud by others helps a lot. I don't think you can equate not wanting to be treated like s**t with wanting to achieve social status that puts you "above" others.

agreed.

MrXxx
Tiggurix
Xfilesgeek

Why do you have a problem with Sweetleaf?

Actually, it was more like I drank waaay too much coffee prior to posting and was therefore hyper and not explaining myself very well.

Stimulants, while giving me the energy to have conversations, also rob me of much of my powers of articulation. If you missed the "meaning" of my post, it's because XFilesGeek was high on coffee and difficult to interpret, not because Sweetleaf was an "idiot." Racists, sexists, and mean people are "idiots," not you.

My bad.



I don't. I generally won't associate with people I find stupid or boring. If I had a "problem" with her, I would not be speaking to her. I am merely engaged in an exchange of ideas in which I am probably coming off as "aggressive" because I tend to act like a bull in a china shop during these types of discussions.

I am interfacing with her because I find her POV to be worthy of discussion. It's her sour luck that she happened to attract the attention of a person with overall poor diplomatic skills.

Just tell me when I'm acting like a lout and I readjust. Thank you.

Yeah it was sorta my bad to though, cause I was in a pretty crappy mood.

I completely agree with this sentiment. It comes down to survival. Despite the logical incongruousness in what is 'normal' I am thankful that a handful of NT's are concerned with the idea that people do not behave similarly and that there are reasons for that, and ways to make living easier for those that are a square peg in a round hole. The diagnosis gives you tools to go about creating strategies to cope within a consensus reality, that isn't shared by you on whatever plane of existence it may be. If it doesn't enable you then it is disabling. The DSM rhetoric and the expert 'consensus' certainly does influence how people perceive those on the spectrum or think about us, but that will change over time, perceptions always change, experts are always proven wrong. Making mistakes is how people learn that others don't always share the same reality and gives us an avenue to communicate better if we let it.

Last edited by Antreus on 03 Dec 2011, 3:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Actually, this point is addressed in the book I, Mammal.

Examples of "competition" or "social hierarchy" are not limited to the rich and famous, or the most stereotypical examples of the all-star athlete or top model. They occur everywhere, all the time, and are not always obvious. Just because a doctor is working on a cure for cancer to benefit everyone does not mean he is not concerned with his "social status" as "the doctor who cured cancer and is therefore one of the smartest doctors EVER who will be remembered for eternity."

Concern with "status" is not actually a "bad" thing. One can be concerned with their "status" among fellow humans and still be altruistic. It's a basic feature of primate evolution: individuals who were "higher status" had more access to resources, and had a better chance of survival than those that didn't. Therefore, "status-seeking" genes were passed to their offspring. Some people can get their "dominance fix" by doing good things, like the doctor, while others turn into bullies (or whiny, cynical, "I hate humanity a$$holes).

The reason I'm even bringing it up in the context of this discussion is because I am amused by the attitude, "Society is bad and full of mindless sheep. But not me. I'm smarter, better, and more informed than everyone else!" It's a pretty basic example of primate "social hierarchy" asserting itself. The posters displaying this mentality are, ironically, acting EXACTLY like the status-obsessed people they claim to despise. It's a "low status" primate attempting to claim "dominance" over other people (aka: "society").

I can't help pointing out this quaint little contradictions when I stumble across them, that's all.



It can be argued that, as social mammals, "social status" IS the "meaning of life."

When you dominant others, your brain releases "happy" chemicals. When you are dominated, your brain releases "sad chemicals."

That made me laugh. It's okay, it's the internet, text. I often come across as mad about something online but I was not feeling angry while typing.

Last edited by TheygoMew on 03 Dec 2011, 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It can be argued that, as social mammals, "social status" IS the "meaning of life."

When you dominant others, your brain releases "happy" chemicals. When you are dominated, your brain releases "sad chemicals."[/quote]

This sounds very Darwinian to me and a bit too deterministic and black & white. It is valid though when placed on a continuum. Truth has many degrees, all relative. The same could be said that happiness and sadness is a state of mind. How the mind is influenced though, that is the question.

Social hierarchy though is inherent in a lot of areas wherein you have some modicum of control or equanimity. People whom are poor on a superficial, utilitarian level, may seem less happy, but the truth is perhaps that they have more happiness in areas not related to material wealth.

It can be argued that, as social mammals, "social status" IS the "meaning of life."

When you dominant others, your brain releases "happy" chemicals. When you are dominated, your brain releases "sad chemicals."[/quote]

This sounds very Darwinian to me and a bit too deterministic and black & white. It is valid though when placed on a continuum. Truth has many degrees, all relative. The same could be said that happiness and sadness is a state of mind. How the mind is influenced though, that is the question.

Social hierarchy though is inherent in a lot of areas wherein you have some modicum of control or equanimity. People whom are poor on a superficial, utilitarian level, may seem less happy, but the truth is perhaps that they have more happiness in areas not related to material wealth.[/quote]