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Mdyar
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09 Feb 2012, 5:00 pm

Callista wrote:
Yes, probably. In a world full of specialists, a non-autistic person would be a generalist without extreme strengths or weaknesses. He might also be considered socially pushy, especially if extroverted, and unusually insensitive or sensitive to sensory stimuli. He would be expected to notice and focus on tiny details, but would be unable to do so. His social skills might be considered a splinter skill, and would not be as globally useful as they are in the real world. An NT in an autistic world would probably need some relatively minor accommodations, as well as schooling and employment tailored for a generalist who sees the big picture.


Huh?

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He would be expected to notice and focus on tiny details, but would be unable to do so.


Huh again?

You mean non- autistics professionals such as doctors, engineers, professors, lawyers, etc. don't see tiny details? /sarcasm/ :lol:



Uprising
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09 Feb 2012, 5:07 pm

Not being into "pop music" or "soccer" is considered a disorder in this world, so I think aspergers must be one too.



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09 Feb 2012, 5:09 pm

I don't understand the importance of arguing whether it qualifies as a disability as if it could objectively be classified as such.

Aptitude is heavily dependent on circumstances. In a lot cases having sensory issues, not understanding social situations, and having trouble communicating can be incredibly disabling, but there are certain circumstances in which the neurological differences which cause such perceptive differences can be beneficial.

I expect that in the majority of cases autism causes extreme difficulties, but I don't think that that means it is inherently disabling. If a person has a strong desire to function in ways that are fundamentally different from what the structure of their brain would naturally predispose them to function, and if they are fundamentally incapable of doing so, then yes, it's reasonable to consider them disabled.

But a person who both has social communication issues but doesn't care much about being socially successful, who may have significant sensory issues but who also has the ability to limit exposure to negative sensory stimuli, who may have a need for routine but is also incredibly organized and who has very good ability to control their environment, it is not necessarily disabling. Said person may lack some of the things that are considered important by others, but I don't think it's reasonable to consider them disabled.

Being able to function is an issue of being able to determine what you want and how to function in such a way that you can get it. It's hard to consider yourself not to be disabled if for all of your existence all of the people around you have tried to condition you to act in a particular way that you didn't know how to act.

I consider myself. I do have significant sensory issues. I do have significant communication issues. I spent so much time thinking that there was something fundamentally wrong with me, that everyone else knew what it was and that I didn't. I was academically really smart but had(and still have) fundamental inability to understand other people's motivations, and regardless of how much I learn about them, I have an inability to pretend to be like them.

But I have an ability to learn how things work in extreme detail, so when I understand how something works I understand it in significant detail. Other people seem to have very superficial understanding of things. I can use that difference to make the quality of my work better than the quality of others' work. I am capable of doing good work. I understand every part of a system from a very basic level. I understand the systems that make up bigger systems that make up bigger systems. But being capable of working but incapable of getting a job is a huge problem.

I was basically non-functional in interacting with other people until I was in my mid-twenties. Once I learned about AS, I decided to watch YouTube videos, and I watched and memorized things, remembering exactly how to act during interviews, including very specific body language. Although I had terror when interviewing, I learned how to do it. I was able to get hired working in a job where I have a significant amount of control over my environment, and I have been told that out of all of the people who have had my job, I do the best job. I am basically still asocial. But I am capable of handling interviews now. I am capable of getting a job and capable of working. I am capable of memorizing the basic social interactions required to maintain a job.

I don't consider myself disabled. I absolutely used to. Now I know that I had just spent my whole life not understanding how to function. I didn't have an understanding of what to do, because I think in a way that is fundamentally different and no one would have considered how to teach me what to do to. No one would have considered it, no one would have understood it, and no one would have done it. I had to teach myself because I didn't have anyone who could teach me.

But I am capable. I am more capable in many ways. I am more capable in the ways that I think are more important. If I wanted to be sociable, I think that it would be more difficult. I do sometimes want some social interaction, but in general, I am not disabled. I am very unusual, but I am able. I may not be able to do everything other people would consider important, but I am unusually capable of doing the things which I consider the most important. I spent decades feeling worthless and depressed. I am not worthless and not depressed. I will be able to have a somewhat happy life.



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09 Feb 2012, 5:48 pm

Wolfheart wrote:
That's an interesting point, sometimes I wonder what an AS exclusive society would be like, sometimes I wonder what it would be like if we were the majority.


Yes. Imagine what the world would be like if the majority of people stayed home and pursued their special interests most of the time, the gas that would be saved, the wars that wouldn't be fought, the un-needed crap that wouldn't be manufactured, the bullying that wouldn't happen...
Maybe like Lennon said, "Imagine all the people, living life in peace."

You may say I'm a dreamer... and you'd be right.



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09 Feb 2012, 6:58 pm

Verdandi wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
DC wrote:
I think this thread is kinda focusing on the wrong problem.

There is an autistic spectrum.

Aspergers is at the very mild end of that spectrum.



The OP says nothing of Autism in general.
He/she specifically mentions ASPERGER'S.


Asperger's is autism. It's a limited selection from the autistic spectrum (no apparent speech delays), and most of the people diagnosed with AS meet the criteria for autism (and thus do not meet the criteria for AS, despite being diagnosed with it).

It's not a clearly defined category that exists separate from the autistic spectrum, and never was. It was never presented as such in Lorna Wing's research, and while Asperger himself insisted they were different, his patients would have fit in rather comfortably with Leo Kanner's patients.


Cognitive and linguistic skills are intact in the person with Asperger's.
While there is no fine line,
Asperger's refers most decidedly to people on one end of the spectrum.


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09 Feb 2012, 7:03 pm

matt wrote:
I don't understand the importance of arguing whether it qualifies as a disability as if it could objectively be classified as such.

Aptitude is heavily dependent on circumstances. In a lot cases having sensory issues, not understanding social situations, and having trouble communicating can be incredibly disabling, but there are certain circumstances in which the neurological differences which cause such perceptive differences can be beneficial.

I expect that in the majority of cases autism causes extreme difficulties, but I don't think that that means it is inherently disabling. If a person has a strong desire to function in ways that are fundamentally different from what the structure of their brain would naturally predispose them to function, and if they are fundamentally incapable of doing so, then yes, it's reasonable to consider them disabled.

But a person who both has social communication issues but doesn't care much about being socially successful, who may have significant sensory issues but who also has the ability to limit exposure to negative sensory stimuli, who may have a need for routine but is also incredibly organized and who has very good ability to control their environment, it is not necessarily disabling. Said person may lack some of the things that are considered important by others, but I don't think it's reasonable to consider them disabled.

Being able to function is an issue of being able to determine what you want and how to function in such a way that you can get it. It's hard to consider yourself not to be disabled if for all of your existence all of the people around you have tried to condition you to act in a particular way that you didn't know how to act.

I consider myself. I do have significant sensory issues. I do have significant communication issues. I spent so much time thinking that there was something fundamentally wrong with me, that everyone else knew what it was and that I didn't. I was academically really smart but had(and still have) fundamental inability to understand other people's motivations, and regardless of how much I learn about them, I have an inability to pretend to be like them.

But I have an ability to learn how things work in extreme detail, so when I understand how something works I understand it in significant detail. Other people seem to have very superficial understanding of things. I can use that difference to make the quality of my work better than the quality of others' work. I am capable of doing good work. I understand every part of a system from a very basic level. I understand the systems that make up bigger systems that make up bigger systems. But being capable of working but incapable of getting a job is a huge problem.

I was basically non-functional in interacting with other people until I was in my mid-twenties. Once I learned about AS, I decided to watch YouTube videos, and I watched and memorized things, remembering exactly how to act during interviews, including very specific body language. Although I had terror when interviewing, I learned how to do it. I was able to get hired working in a job where I have a significant amount of control over my environment, and I have been told that out of all of the people who have had my job, I do the best job. I am basically still asocial. But I am capable of handling interviews now. I am capable of getting a job and capable of working. I am capable of memorizing the basic social interactions required to maintain a job.

I don't consider myself disabled. I absolutely used to. Now I know that I had just spent my whole life not understanding how to function. I didn't have an understanding of what to do, because I think in a way that is fundamentally different and no one would have considered how to teach me what to do to. No one would have considered it, no one would have understood it, and no one would have done it. I had to teach myself because I didn't have anyone who could teach me.

But I am capable. I am more capable in many ways. I am more capable in the ways that I think are more important. If I wanted to be sociable, I think that it would be more difficult. I do sometimes want some social interaction, but in general, I am not disabled. I am very unusual, but I am able. I may not be able to do everything other people would consider important, but I am unusually capable of doing the things which I consider the most important. I spent decades feeling worthless and depressed. I am not worthless and not depressed. I will be able to have a somewhat happy life.
Very good post.I am the same way.If I desired to be very social ,I am sure I would have a lot of roadblocks to overcome.With the exception of having a romantic relationship I am basically content with my life as it is .I think you are suggesting if one can play to their strengths and minimize their weaknesses it is possible to lead a happy life with AS.



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09 Feb 2012, 8:25 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Cognitive and linguistic skills are intact in the person with Asperger's.
While there is no fine line,
Asperger's refers most decidedly to people on one end of the spectrum.
Not really...

Asperger's is closely associated with specific learning disabilities, for one thing. People diagnosed with AS tend to have cognitive styles that are very different from NT. People with AS can and do have problems with speech. They have problems with tone of voice, metaphor, sarcasm, all the non-denotative meanings of words. Some occasionally lose access to speech. Some can't use the phone. Others have auditory processing disorder. There are Aspies who mix up pronouns, who make up neologisms, who use functional echolalia. Very few of us are any good at small talk. Most of us have problems holding a conversation. That is not "cognitive and linguistic skills intact"; that's "autistic cognitive and linguistic style" in someone who can physically produce words.

There is very little difference between people diagnosed Asperger's and those who are classic autistic and can speak and take care of their own basic needs. I would be willing to bet that if you got a group of such people, at age 8 or older, and gathered them all together, psychologists would not be much better than chance at determining who had which diagnosis. And even for those who are non-verbal/partly-verbal or have problems with self-care, there are many things in common. There are non-verbal people that I have more in common with than I have in common with some Aspies, because we think in similar ways--even though I learned to speak at age two and was semi-independent by age 25. There's no simple way to divide autism up into subcategories, no single-dimensional spectrum to line everybody up on. Rather, there's a lot of different traits that people have, and they're all mixed up into lots of different combinations.

I don't think Asperger's has any clinical significance as a separate phenomenon from autism in general. Asperger's is simply autism in someone who doesn't look too autistic to the doctor doing the diagnosis. The Asperger's label has served its purpose: It's taught us that autism need not be extreme or severe--usually isn't, in fact. Now that we've learned that, I think we can go back to just calling it all "autism", because that's what it is.


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09 Feb 2012, 9:06 pm

Everything Callista said +1.


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09 Feb 2012, 9:08 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

Cognitive and linguistic skills are intact in the person with Asperger's.
While there is no fine line,
Asperger's refers most decidedly to people on one end of the spectrum.


I had a decade of speech therapy when I was young to teach me how to speak in manners that people could understand.

About monthly I have periods that last multiple hours where I can't speak (currently, how often these are varies).

I don't have any idea how to control my tone of voice, am pretty often told I'm using a different tone of voice than I think I am.

I don't know how to discuss emotions at all.

I don't know how to deal with greeting people, or saying goodbye. I don't know how to deal with small talk. I don't know how to have discussions that aren't on a subject.

(Writing level of language requires me to have a migraine to lose, but my migraines are associated with my ASD as well).

But because I can usually speak, I'm considered to have "no reduced linguistic skills." Even with the ten years of speech therapy to get me to this point. (Which has the hilarious side effect of people being convinced I'm from Europe rather than central Mass)



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09 Feb 2012, 9:09 pm

Callista wrote:
That is not "cognitive and linguistic skills intact"; that's "autistic cognitive and linguistic style" in someone who can physically produce words.


There was a study in which language skills were evaluated for the whole spectrum, from non-verbal to people who spoke on time, and it was shown that there is an autistic linguistic style that is distinct from the typical linguistic style, and people who spoke on time did not speak neurotypically either.



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09 Feb 2012, 9:18 pm

Yeah, verbal skills are there; too bad they can't be utilized for social interaction. Repeating factual knowledge and learnt phrases really isn't the epitome of verbal ability and social interaction.

Yeah again, the intelligence is there; too bad it can't be utilized for most things outside of a person's specific interest. It's potluck whether your interest is vocationally positive or not.



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09 Feb 2012, 9:30 pm

Tyazii wrote:
People with aspergers are not disabled by aspergers. They are disabled by society.

The neurotypical brain has built this society to fit their needs and their needs only. The schooling system was probably set up by people who reminisced on how they were as a child, and how other neurotypicals were as a child and have set up and improved this society so the schooling system accommodates for them. Nobody would have taken into account an aspergers since we're such a small percentage of the population.


To be fair, NT's don't usually like the school system either and often have major problems with it, it's not really suitable for anyone, it's a s**t system for all. You don't think NT's have it all fine and dandy do you? Most drop outs are NT's right?

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Now, if this society was built by the mind of people with aspergers, I'd go as far to say that a neurotypical in our society would struggle worse than we struggle in theirs, and they would be the ones with the disorder.


I think they'd actually do better, since they're much better at adapting to unusual situations, they could even thrive.

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My conclusion, Aspergers is far from a disorder, and society is far from perfect.


But doesn't that mean most disorders arn't actually disorders? Arn't most mental illness sufferers simply suffering because of the society they live in? Wouldn't a manic living in a bipolarsociety do well and therefor not be disordered? Arn;t people in wheelchairs only disabled because we live on a discriminatory planet with strong gravity?


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09 Feb 2012, 9:37 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Cognitive and linguistic skills are intact in the person with Asperger's.
While there is no fine line,
Asperger's refers most decidedly to people on one end of the spectrum.


I think that "cognitive and linguistic skills are intact" is a big leap from what the criteria say. "Cognitive skills" strikes me as a vague statement with no real meaning, and speaking early or on time does not mean that linguistic skills are necessarily "intact."

Many people diagnosed with AS are as or more severe than many people diagnosed with autism, deal with many of the very same problems, and function about as well. There's a definite overlap.



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09 Feb 2012, 9:39 pm

A society filled with people like me would be utterly dysfunctional.


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09 Feb 2012, 9:53 pm

DC wrote:
MrXxx wrote:
Heck, we often can't even function well with each other, let alone society as a whole. That right there is very telling. All one has to do to see evidence of that is spend more time on WP. Expecting society to adjust to us is like a rock in a river expecting the water to stop flowing and reforming it. It ain't gonna happen.



I disagree.

We should expect society to adapt to our needs as much as it reasonably can.

Society has adapted to deaf people by putting signing and subtitles on TV
Society has adapted to the blind by putting creating a language in concrete that only blind people ever really notice when they walk along the pavement. Or by providing government documents in braille print.
Society has adapted to wheelchair users with ramps and disabled toilets that are wide enough to use, building laws dictating the height of light switches.

When it wants to be society can actually be quite flexible to accommodating to the disabled and given the shockingly high levels of unemployment for autistic people (far higher than for deaf/blind/wheelchair bound people) it is high time society adjusted so that more of us can be productive members of society.


Okay, some good points there, but could you provide some parallel examples of ways in which society can adapt to Autistics? Deafness, blindness and paraplegia are physical disabilities, which are far easier to adapt to. Disabilities that affect cognitive functioning are a totally different story.

Adapting to differences in cognitive processing requires a far deeper understanding of the disability than is required for adapting for the physically disabled. The two are not even close to comparable in this respect.

We can believe that society should adapt to us all we want, and we may even be morally right about that. But....

good luck with that.

There are already professionals out there who have studied Autism in depth, and still don't really "get it." It's just not reasonable to expect society as a whole to ever understand it well enough to accomodate us.

I'd rather do something about it myself than hold my breath waiting for society. I already wasted a lot of my childhood ranting that it should happen, and it didn't do me a bit of good.


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09 Feb 2012, 9:57 pm

There wouldn't be a society at all if it were full of people like me.

Actually, "society" is antithesis to autism itself. Society is a social construct due to humanities' innate social behavior. Take away that innate social behavior, and you have...clans/tribes at the most. Fighting would be rife compared to now.