Bad at Math, Good at English?

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18 Mar 2012, 10:09 am

I hate words. I hate reading, I hate writing.
Math is my thing. Numbers and geometric concepts are so much easier for me to deal with.

I stopped coming to this site as much because so many of you hyperverbal people just love writing these huge walls of text.
It just got to be too much work.

Really folks, chill out on the walls of text.
Not everyone here is hyperlexic, some of us are more dyslexic and easily get lost in giant paragraphs.
At least split your ramblings up into much smaller paragraphs. The best way to get people to NOT read your post is to write it in one huge wall of text.

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nirrti_rachelle
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18 Mar 2012, 10:56 am

I have dyscalculia which makes math extremely difficult. I was put in pull-out resource for math in elementary school, barely passed algebra in high school and made such a low score on the math portion of the ACT, I had to take remedial math courses during freshman year in college.

To compensate, I majored in Journalism for my bachelor's degree just so I could avoid taking advanced math classes. However, with reading and English, I've always done well. I was reading at sixth grade level by the end of third grade and English has always been my best subject.

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XFilesGeek
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18 Mar 2012, 1:26 pm

OJani wrote:

My question is: Do you think that someone who is better at math / physics / chemistry than English / literature / history can't have AS? Because it seems that this was the main reason why I don't fit in the AS stereotype according to the psychs who evaluated me.

Anyway, I already feel better reading that most people here, the AS majority, is actually the opposite than I am in this respect. So, there's at least a little more understanding from my part that they denied the AS dx from me and instead gave me that ugly and vague PDD-NOS label I hate.

Nevertheless, Einstein and Tesla couldn't have AS then, period.

That depends entirely on what the mental health professional you consult thinks is the "most important" aspect of AS.

Some of them think that VIQ > PIQ is really important. Other people think that AS is all about "social deficits." Some psychologists/psychiatrists think an AS person can't have an "imagination" while others, such as my psychologist, don't think whether you have an "imagination" is important in the least. Hans Asperger seemed to think that having a "special interest" was the most defining characteristic of AS.

To reiterate, it all depends on what research you read and who you talk to. As of right now, "autism" is just a very general grouping of behaviors. Neuroscience is in the process of attempting to define just what exactly "autism" actual *is* in relation to an objective metric, but, until, then, we're stuck with doctor interpretations and personal preference. But you're not alone. People on this forum have been told all sorts of crazy things from, "You can't have AS because you can use a phone," to "You can't have AS because you're a woman."

It's why I take my own AS DX with a grain of salt. I could have AS, but I could just as easily have NVLD (I have a 52 point split between VIQ and PIQ), or ADHD-PI/SCT. *shrug*

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Moonhawk
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18 Mar 2012, 1:51 pm

Always been extremely bad with math but way too good with english, it didn't help me in highschool.

Pandora_Box
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18 Mar 2012, 2:06 pm

I was always better at English than I was at math. A little confession, I never went through Geometry in high school nor did I go through Algrebra 2. I only ever finished Pre-Algrebra and Algreba 1A 1B. They counted for my high math class. I just was that bad at math. I never understood it and Algrebra 1 was already hard for me. Now in college I am dreading math because 1 I don't remember anything and 2 I might have to do more math than what I want cause to get all my credits I need to take Intermediate math.

momsparky
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18 Mar 2012, 2:15 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:

There is still no indicator that says gender or school subjects are defining characteristics of autism. VIQ and PIQ don't necessarily point to a preference for a specific school subject; people with poor VIQ can still excel in language arts on paper - but not be adept at communicating with spoken word. Doctors who don't know that need to be educated: even the CDC defines autism as primarily a social-communication disorder.

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18 Mar 2012, 2:27 pm

momsparky wrote:

XFilesGeek wrote:

I know, but you have to tell THEM that. :wink:

TheSunAlsoRises
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18 Mar 2012, 3:04 pm

xkandakex wrote:

I've always been absolutely terrible at math of all sorts. I failed algebra 1 twice! It affected my confidence in mathematics to the point where I get nervous just trying to do simple arithmetic in my everyday life, like working out tips on a check or figuring out prices at the grocery store.

Now, geometry was excellent because I'm a visual thinker. Trigonometry was a bit challenging at times but I still did very well. Calculus...that was just a hopeless endeavor.

For English and literature, I took AP classes throughout school, got perfect English & Reading scores on the ACT and SAT, got a perfect English score on the COMPASS test, and so on. English teachers loved me. I still love reading and writing as hobbies and do both quite often.

However this doesn't seem to be the norm among fellow Aspies that I've met. They are commonly engineers, physicists, IT professionals, etc. who all took advanced mathematics in college and went on to careers that require them to use higher math on a daily basis.

Is this uncommon? Anyone else love English but hate math?

I enjoy both English and Math.

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OJani
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18 Mar 2012, 3:19 pm

All right, someone should stop my pointless perseveration on PDD-NOS, I can't, and it's getting in my way too much... I don't even know if it's ASD or ADHD related... (is it productive in any sense or not?)

Switching back to serious mode, thanks XFilesGeek & Ganondox. My personal opinion is that differentiating between ASDs by any IQ sub-indexes or subtest scores is arbitrary & pointless. From WAIS-IV on there's no PIQ and VIQ, only the 4 indexes. According to some studies usually in AS VCI>PRI while in HFA the opposite is true. These are averages and there's a lot of diversity on individual level. So, you can't say that if your VCI<PRI than you aren't AS (like in my case).

I can only speculate that during my life my verbal comprehension got way better form the point it had been (it's a common phenomenon, though), while my perception reasoning (visuo-spatial skills) remained nearly the same. My difficulties with language might have been a result of some kind of learning disability that is relatively rare. Full-blown autistic people have much more difficulties overall than me, and the underlying cause of their VCI-PRI imbalance could be something fundamentally different imho.

As for the AS stereotype, it's interesting that professionals may have the opposite stereotype than people. Professionals mostly think that Aspies have peak performance at verbal and written expression and arts while people are most influenced by the math/physics/computer genius stereotype. I guess we could agree that both are false stereotypes.

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ADoyle90815
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18 Mar 2012, 3:39 pm

I was really bad at math, especially algebra and geometry, but did really well in English classes. My mom finally realized that the teacher I had for algebra and geometry in high school was one who didn't like those who didn't get the material right away when she saw in my senior yearbook that a classmate said that their most embarrassing moment was "getting into a fight with (my math teacher.)" This teacher thought I was using the calculator "too much" then got on my case when I wrote out everything longhand. I think she only gave me a "C" just so she could get rid of me at the end of the year. I was one of those who missed enough answers on my homework that I didn't get credit for it, even if I had completed it.

This was before people understood that there is such a thing as dyscalculia, while if I had been in high school later, chances are that people would see that my struggles in math weren't my fault at all.

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18 Mar 2012, 3:58 pm

OJani wrote:

The emphasis on IQ indices for diagnosing this vs. that does not make sense to me, eggspecially for adults. For children, maybe it does. A child fitting the Asperger's stereotype of high verbal ability and lots of talking would probably perform much better on VCI than a child fitting the Kanner's stereotype of little to no talking ability and problems with basic communication.

Math and science have always come more naturally to me than English/writing, but my verbal skills got better over time, so I consider myself decent at writing now.

I read a study involving only HFA. About 20% of HFA participants fit the NVLD profile of VIQ a SD above PIQ and Arithmetic and Block Design significantly lower than Vocabulary.

Rascal77s
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18 Mar 2012, 4:53 pm

Let me point out something that I think is a common misconception on this forum. Arithmetic and digit span are under the VIQ index not the PIQ index

momsparky
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18 Mar 2012, 5:37 pm

Rascal77s wrote:

Let me point out something that I think is a common misconception on this forum. Arithmetic and digit span are under the VIQ index not the PIQ index

Makes total sense to me. One of the reasons my son struggles so much in math is that the whole year this year has been spent using different language to explain exactly the same thing (percentages, ratios, fractions, etc.)

btbnnyr
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18 Mar 2012, 5:58 pm

Here is the paper about the NLD profile in HFA: PubMed Link

They used significant PIQ < VIQ, Arithmetic < Vocabulary, Block Design < Vocabulary to define the NLD profile.

I got the percentage wrong earlier. It was only ~5% of the sample that showed all three effects. ~20% showed one of three. The point seems to be that IQ profiles are not reliable for differentiating amongst ASDs and a significant percentage of HFA will have IQ profiles similar to or overlapping with NLD profile, which clinicians have associated with AS, not HFA, and diagnose different ASDs for to perpetuate this association.

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18 Mar 2012, 6:07 pm

cooliolio wrote:

I'm really good at maths and I teach myself A Level. Got 90%, 92%, 97% and 98% so far in the modules. Two more left. I'm sort of good at English. I also do it at A Level but I have a problem with essays where I just write everything down with no structure.

I don't know whether I have Asperger's or not but I think I have.

I had the advantage of enrolling in English as a foreign language. Which meant that more focus was put on the language than the content. In German classes though... Well, there content was at least equally as important as the structure. Which is why English was more fun for me.

TB_Samurai wrote:

I am terrible at Math. Can't do division or multiplication without a calculator. And once someone said I don't have AS because I'm not good at Math and all people with AS are good at math. :roll:

One of my mother's friends said that in general, "People who do not excel at Math are not seen as intelligent as those who do". I think that is the reason why Math is still not a very popular subject.

Ganondox wrote:

Nim wrote:

I think you'd find many more aspie's are better with words than math. Math took a conscious effort into focusing on a instructor said/answering problems and giving written feedback on how you solved the problem. I would have done much better in a environment through self learning but this isn't how the school system works.

I was thrown into special ed with "bad kids" and given lower grade work (instead of pushed forward). All in all I've had a high vocabulary since I was young, but math was always something I couldn't learn because social issues/lack of speaking up, etc. Plus it was never a special interest of mine, and now that I'm older I'd like to learn but I have bits and pieces of many math subjects, and I'm unsure where I need to begin.

You do not need to be taught how to solve math problems, in theory. You only need to be taught what the notation and vocabulary mean.

That's what has always bothered me about Math. I'd have to calculate over and over again just to get the basic structure of basic calculations. Math has never come naturally to me. It's totally foreign to me. I never got to the core of it.

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18 Mar 2012, 6:27 pm

Here is an abstract from study directly comparing AS vs. HFA:

Quote:

Asperger's syndrome and high-functioning autism: language, motor and cognitive profiles
The objective of this study is to compare the cognitive profile, the motor and language functioning and the psychosocial adaptation of children with Asperger syndrome (AS) and with high-functioning autism (HFA). Subjects were recruited through the department Autism and Developmental Disorders of the Heckscher-Klinikum. To be included in the study, the full-scale-IQ had to be at least 80. Subjects with AS had to have a normal early language development and subjects with HFA a clear delay in language development, as reported by their parents. The sample consisted of 57 children with Asperger syndrome and 55 children with high-functioning autism. The mean age of the children was 10 years. All subjects were examined with a standardised test battery. Children with AS had a higher full-scale-IQ than children with HFA. This was due to a higher verbal-IQ. There were no significant differences in the performance-IQ. At a mean age of 10 years, subjects with AS had better language skills than subjects with HFA, but at least 30% showed clear receptive language problems. Motor problems were present in about 50% of the children with AS and HFA. The level of psychosocial adaptation was clearly reduced, but was comparable for the two groups. The differences in verbal-IQ and language skills between the two groups could be explained through the definition of the syndromes. The presence of language problems in the subjects with AS at age 10, the comparable degree of motor impairment and level of psychosocial adaptation question the validity of the distinction between AS and HFA within the category of pervasive developmental disorders.

e.g. At age 10, someone who has had eight years of consistent speaking/verbal/spontaneous communication eggsperience (AS) compared with let's say four years for HFA might get a better score on some VIQ subtests requiring a lot of language usage, eggspecially eggspressive.

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