Is Being Uber Rational a symptom of AS ?.

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onks
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13 Oct 2012, 4:58 am

Verdandi wrote:

onks wrote:

That's also why I am a bit surprised, that you'd sort of think that aspies are not rational
and from that came the logical conclusion, that you'd think, that we should surrender to NTs rationality, being a clear minority whose arguments cannot be understood or accepted.

My point is that Aspies can be irrational, not that Aspies are by definition irrational. I also do not think that being emotional means being irrational. Many emotional reactions are quite rational - for example, being in fear for your life while a grizzly bear chases you.

I don't think Aspies or any other autistic people should be forced to change and adapt to NTs and such change and adaptation can be very difficult for many of us. I think that for the most part, we're fine as we are, and if anyone needs or wants to change something then that's up to them.

Quote:

I am happy though that you agree that feelings are important and that they are part of reasoning (again a subjective argument). That is I think also merely a matter of taste or faith or whatever non logical, if you'd discuss deeply about it.

This is not a subjective argument, but a statement of empirical fact.

http://bigthink.com/experts-corner/deci ... ion-making
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... ris-mooney

Emotions are an intrinsic part of the reasoning process.

Quote:

For me feelings are an important part of my life that are maybe different but still very real (I'd hope so) and important. It would feel stupid and irrational to not include them. And it feels also stupid to exclude them in your self evaluation.

I agree.

I cut out parts of your post that I did not know what to do with or how to respond to them.

Nice articles. Anyway very clear that decisions never have been made based on rationality.
I would hope that at least for politicians decisions would be more rational based and much less polemic...

And about forcing aspies to fit in: That would make them feel bad. This is like the last an aspie would like to do.
I would really loose my foundations in my character if I'd change everything around.
And it would all the time feel bad to change to just fit in with ignorant people, sort of...

I'd anyway be happy to change naturally my things a bit around, because just standing still and barking around is not really useful :lol:

And I would be much more ready for changes when I would see that other things are accepted and that there is understanding for my situation.
One way street towards NT: No no no no no no no, yes: no no no!

GetBusy
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13 Oct 2012, 6:27 am

Quote:

This is what I find so frustrating. The only EMPIRICAL FACT is that 99% (not a FACT just a guess) of the worlds population are IRRATIONAL.

One of the reasons I feel out of place and different is because I am rational. Do I have emotions and feelings, Yes, do I allow them to influence my decisions No.

The link you provided states if some sits down at a negotiation with nailed on facts and logic, their opponents will not change their position, This is because they are IRRATIONAL, they allow their emotions to affect their decisions. I would change my position because the facts and logic would be what I based my decision on. (I'M RATIONAL)

What percentage of the world population believe in God ?. I can rationalise the reasons the religions evolved, to explain the unexplainable. What I can not understand is that given what we now know (FACTS) about the universe and how it works, about human evolution. That people just ignore these and carry on believing. (IRRATIONAL)

Fear (of death,spiders,snakes etc) is irrational (Well in the UK). It is an emotion that while essential in our past (when we were surrounded by hungry things with big teeth that wanted to eat us), is now redundant. I have known fear, but by rationalising it and recognising it for what it is, like all other emotions it can be mastered.

The reason I posted the original question " Is being uber rational a symptom of AS" was to find out whether people with AS were more rational. Given the nature of the majority of the posts in reply, I think the answer is NO, that 99% of people with AS (Not a Fact just a guess) are just as irrational as the rest of the worlds population.

Verdandi
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13 Oct 2012, 7:30 am

GetBusy wrote:

This is what I find so frustrating. The only EMPIRICAL FACT is that 99% (not a FACT just a guess) of the worlds population are IRRATIONAL.

You're confusing emotion with irrationality, though.

Quote:

One of the reasons I feel out of place and different is because I am rational. Do I have emotions and feelings, Yes, do I allow them to influence my decisions No.

I find this extremely dubious. If you read the links I provided, you should find some discussion of the fact that without emotions, people simply cannot make decisions, or at least cannot make rational decisions.

Quote:

The link you provided states if some sits down at a negotiation with nailed on facts and logic, their opponents will not change their position, This is because they are IRRATIONAL, they allow their emotions to affect their decisions. I would change my position because the facts and logic would be what I based my decision on. (I'M RATIONAL)

Why do you base it on facts and logic? What is the purpose for doing so? What do you get out of it?

Quote:

What percentage of the world population believe in God ?. I can rationalise the reasons the religions evolved, to explain the unexplainable. What I can not understand is that given what we now know (FACTS) about the universe and how it works, about human evolution. That people just ignore these and carry on believing. (IRRATIONAL)

The thing about God (and divinity and such in other religions) is that it's about faith. There is no proof for or against the existence of a deity, just faith in that deity's existence. This is because the notion of "God" is unfalsifiable. That is, it cannot be proven or disproven. This makes such faith unscientific, but I think it taps into elements of the human psyche and neurology that are necessary for community to exist and function. I am not saying that religion is necessary for community to exist and function, but that religion is an expression of those faculties. It creates a social bond among people, and serves as a context for human relationships. Creating social bonds is a rational action, even if the context in which it occurs may reflect irrational beliefs. It is a survival strategy without which humanity would not exist as it does today, if at all.

Quote:

Fear (of death,spiders,snakes etc) is irrational (Well in the UK). It is an emotion that while essential in our past (when we were surrounded by hungry things with big teeth that wanted to eat us), is now redundant. I have known fear, but by rationalising it and recognising it for what it is, like all other emotions it can be mastered.

I believe you believe this. However, fear of death is rational. Fear of dying at any moment is not rational, but being in a life-threatening situation, if you do not experience fear, your reaction is actually irrational and may put you at greater risk because your own survival does not prompt the fight or flight response.

Quote:

The reason I posted the original question " Is being uber rational a symptom of AS" was to find out whether people with AS were more rational. Given the nature of the majority of the posts in reply, I think the answer is NO, that 99% of people with AS (Not a Fact just a guess) are just as irrational as the rest of the worlds population.

Everyone is irrational at some point. Your belief that you can divorce emotion from decision making is irrational, as is your unwillingness to accept that, or your belief in the ability to control your emotions.

Also, irrationality does not make any particular person inferior, nor does it mean they are incapable of being rational at other times.

Something interesting about NTs is that their neurology develops in such a way that they actually can control their emotions to a greater extent than autistic people can. Autistic people, however, often have difficulty identifying our own emotions, and may often feel unemotional because the emotions that are there are not processed as emotions. Often, they are processed as physical sensations. These two things (emotional dysregulation and alexithymia) in combination are part of the reason for meltdowns.

b9
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13 Oct 2012, 7:38 am

GetBusy wrote:

b9 wrote:

Quote:

Is Being Uber Rational a symptom of AS ?.

i do rationalise things to an extended degree, but i do not use buzz words like "uber". if you are from germany, then it may be forgiven.

symptoms of AS pertaining to you can not be plotted by asking people who think they have AS what they think of your own predicament (which a true AS person may not have much time set aside to consider)

I do not understand this. It is not rational.
I did not use "uber" because its a "buzz word" (is this a buzz phrase ?), I used it to express the level to which rational thinking dictates my opinions and decisions. I have always had extreme difficulty with spelling and the use of words, I suspect that I have dyslexia (but obviously not a TRUE dyslectic, because some expert has never given his/her opinion !.), this is what I refer to as a rational conclusion given that regardless how many times I spell a word or write a passage, I will always spell the words wrong and get the words out of order.One of my first posts on this site was to find out how to download or access a splellchecker to avoid having to cut and paste out of a word processor.
What is a true AS person ?. I'm assuming you mean someone who has been to see an expert and in their opinion has AS, correct me if I'm wrong that AS diagnosis is not like cancer or Aids you can't go and get a blood or DNA test and find out whether you are a TRUE AS sufferer.
The reason I THINK I have AS, is because rationally it provides the answers to explain all the problems that have plagued me my entire life. I do not want AS, I want answers and the only way to get them is to asked questions. The fact that you think the symptoms of AS can be plotted by an expert without AS and yet can't be plotted by people with AS (or think they have AS) to me is totally irrational.
What do TRUE people with AS set time about to consider ?.
I 'm constantly thinking. What I thinking about depends on what ever has raised a question that I feel I need to explain, an example would be "Why 80% of the truly atrocious drivers I come across (I drive a lorry for a living ( a symptom of AS ?. my need for seclusion/inability to connect and work with others, the opinion of a TRUE AS sufferer like yourself would be welcome)) are women, and yet women are considered by Insurance companies to be "Safer Drivers" (already rationalised, but not prov en, can't be bothered, got other things to think about now and not really important in the first place).
I strongly suspect that you are the type of person that would turn up wearing his Teeshirt at an "Aspie Pride" march only to be alarmed by the number of people in attendance (thereby making you less special) and going off to start a "TRUE Aspie Pride" group. (Again misjudging people and their intentions is one of my issues, A symptom of AS ?. The opinion of a TRUE sufferer would be welcome).
Whilst I can rationalise the need to belong to a tribe and label oneself, (given the known facts about human evolution), I can't rationalise or understand (given the afore mentioned known facts) why people still do it.
I believe that there is a rational explanation for everything (including why I'm attracted to slim women with prominent cheek bones and why my favourite colour is blue), the fact that everything can't be answered does not mean that it is not rational it just means it has not been explained yet.
You can't find any answers unless you asked questions !. ( eg. Is My Rationality a Symptom Of AS).
Is the reason I feel so different from everyone else, because I'm a rational person living in a totally irrational society.
Religion is irrational. Therefore any decisions based on it are irrational.
Humanity is a form of planetary cancer, but cancer unlike us can't think " Hang on if we carry on like this, we will just consume and destroy the thing on which we depend". NOT RATIONAL BEHAVIOUR!.
Am I the only person that THINKS (and wants to understand) as opposed to FEELS about things ?.
No doubt I will be branded a HERETIC by all you "Aspies" (TRUE and otherwise) and burnt at the stake !.
IF you are going to answer any of my posts try and THINK not FEEL !.

i am sorry you wasted your energy on compiling your response to me because i do not care about the matter very much.

i feel somewhat obligated to address your concerns, but i am disinclined to, so i will just clarify my original post (in other words i will address my self)

i said

Quote:

i do rationalise things to an extended degree

which means that that fact may may indicate a similarity between you and me.

Quote:

, but i do not use buzz words like "uber".

which means that that fact may may indicate a dissimilarity between you and me.

Quote:

if you are from germany, then it may be forgiven.

which means that the dissimilarity does not exist because it is a word from your native language.

Quote:

symptoms of AS pertaining to you can not be plotted by asking people who think they have AS what they think of your own predicament

which means: your question as to whether "over" rationalization is a symptom of AS indicates that you may not be diagnosed as AS yet, and the recruiting of people on this board who may or may not be AS to give you a reply with a guarantee of authenticity of qualification seems futile to me.

in fact "rationalization" may not mean what you think it does. "rationalize" in a psychological sense does not mean to "analyze", it means to explain behavior that is not logically contiguous by fitting a subconsciously concocted rationale around the erroneous actions that a person performs . rationalization is a defense mechanism.

this is the reason that i thought the use of the word "over" was tautological, and it's translation into "uber" (to make it a highlight in a sentence where it's existence is redundant) compelled me to mention it in my last post.

Quote:

(which a true AS person may not have much time set aside to consider)

i would not think that people who have lived with AS all their lives would spend an inordinate amount of time to speculate whether some characteristic or another is peculiar to AS (if they were like me).

i have known since an early age that i am autistic, and i do not segment aspects of my personality to establish an answer to a non existent question about who i am.

i was not implying you are not AS, and whatever else you gleaned from my post can be wiped off the slate of your appraisal.
you careen like an out of control emotional helicopter whose blades of attention are continuously glancing off hard surfaces, and somehow you keep your hands on the stick, but in a way it is entertaining to see someone in an emotional convulsion screaming that they are "coldly logical" to a world of "deaf ears".

and i do not wear t-shirts with words or even patterns on them. i wear plain white t-shirts. i have no pride. i could not care less about whether i should be part of some group or another.

anyway, have a good time.

Curlywurly
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13 Oct 2012, 7:54 am

Yes it is, and you see it on this forum - people thinking they can rationalise every subject matter by clinging onto logic and reason as if their lives depended on it. But logic needs data as input to output something meaningful. Life experience is data, something that can't be gathered from books alone, and I think a lot of aspies lack life experience so compensate by emphasising logical / rational thinking, but end up missing the bigger picture. That's ok though.. it's their way of trying to understand the world.

GetBusy
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13 Oct 2012, 8:45 am

Curlywurly wrote:

I am 51 yrs old. I have had plenty of Life Experience.

CyclopsSummers
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13 Oct 2012, 9:37 am

Verdandi wrote:

Quote:

I agree with what Verdandi said this, and -since this is a discussiuon about the rational vs the emotional- would like to add the following: when a fear is referred to as an 'irrational fear' (i.e. a clinical phobia, such as arachnophobia or agrophobia), what is meant is that the person suffering from the phobia is unable to use reason to put the fear in perspective. By definition, ALL emotions are not rational, but our minds are capable of applying reason to the situation that prompted the emotion in question, just like you mention in your post above where you speak of rationalising one's emotions and mastering them. Applying reason makes the difference between being angry about something and tempering that anger with logic, or throwing a tantrum. It makes the difference between being pleased about something, or entering into an unabashed bacchanal of elation. Emotions have developed over millions of years of evolution, and may be viewed as 'pre-programmed' responses to certain kinds of situations to jerk the body (and mind) into the appropriate mode of behaviour.

We are, in spite of this 'pre-programming', not robots; we don't continuously coldly analyse everything we encounter. We meet something that's scary, like a curtain catching on fire at our house, and do not first logically assess the situation to come to the conclusion that, depending on the fire's progress, we must either extinguish it or evacuate the premises. No, we most of us first experience a scare, which will hopefully point us in the direction of either frantically trying to put the fire out, or just as frantically running out of the house and warning anyone else who might be in danger.

I do not find fear any more irrational than any of the other emotions, and it continues to serve its purpose in our lives. It's when fear goes over the edge that things start to get weird.

_________________
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onks
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13 Oct 2012, 11:23 am

oioi

so much new stuff to read

onks
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13 Oct 2012, 12:08 pm

Curlywurly wrote:

I would also say that, on the contrary, NTs are the ones that miss preception experience and a bottom-up reasoning. Many things they'd find they would go for are in-consequent, illogical and therefore irrational.

NTs are actually very prone to missing the bigger picture. They are taking too many things for granted as that they could built up a complete big picture reasoning.
They'd just rush on and ... s**t happens. Some would even defend their own opinion if they'd know they are wrong.
And then they are much more selfish. That is now my opinion.

Then you should really not talk about missing life experience, because that is first of all generalising.
Also you miss the aspect that the Life experience is different and not missing.

If you would now only consider NT like life experience as valid then that is unreasonable, because aspies are not able to experience life the way NTs do.
Neither is it possible to experience the world as like as an aspie when you are NT.

If you mean that aspies are just at home living in their dreams, then that is wrongish.
Let's put it also so, that most NTs are not even aware of the spectrum. Whilst many aspies very well know what the NTs perspectives are, just that they would not find them useful.

I would consider myself to have much more life experience than most of my NT fellows in same age. I simply have done so many things.
That'll be on different fields, though. Additionally it depends also on the point of view what aspects you'd consider to be important for life experience.

I mean if you'd perceive aspies as just whining around you'd forget how much more reflected this forum is than most of the NT forums.
Aspies are very aware of their own feelings and to rate them in the context.
NTs are quite easily accepting things the way they are. They'd not normally considering evaluating themselves deeply.

GetBusy
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14 Oct 2012, 7:36 am

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this post.

Your replies have all been very helpful. But have left me confused.

I have just read the article in Verdandi's second link. Given that it is true, which I have no reason to doubt, then Emotions are part of my decision making process.

Not being very intelligent and always struggling with convieing what I'm thinking is part of my problem here.

Not sure of the difference between reasoning and rationalising.

Not sure if the question should have been "Are people with AS more logical ?."

I was brought up in the Christen faith until the age of about 12. when my parents gave me a choice of whether to continuing going. (because of the doubts and questions I was raising)
Although I had no problems with what Jesus is supposed to have said (apart from being the son of god) and found that facts that I had learnt at school about human evolution etc had totally eroded the foundation on which the religion was based. (Was that reasoning, rationalising or being logical ?).

So here I am a christen (ie I find the teachings of Jesus a reasonable/rational/logical sustainable way for humans to behave) that doesn't believe in god. (because their is no proof and I find it irrational/unreasonable/illogical).

This way of thinking colours the way I view the society/world in which I live.

I have been a communist (non practising) since an early age, it seemed to offer the answers (social justice, freedom, equality) and yet evidence proved it did not work.
I was kicked out of a class at school, when a right wing teacher told us that "Animal Farm" was an indictment of communism and a justification for the West's stance against it and
I viewed the opinion that she was talking out her rear end and it was an indictment of human nature (us). That regardless of the political system the "Pigs" will always be on top.

Capitalism works because it suits our nature.

I say "Our" nature because I share have the same initial feelings of outrage and the need for retribution that the majority of people feel when terrorists explode bombs in our cities. The difference is that I soon realise/recognise that for what it is (an inbuilt emotional response ?.) and then I'm stunned and dismayed when other people don't and act on it by bombing or invading the people they think are responsible.

I have made mistakes and been wrong countless times (as demonstrated in this post) and have reacted to my emotions (fear,anger etc) in the past, but rapidly recognised that I was wrong. The difference is that the vast majority of people don't do this and don't think/feel the same way as me. That society/the world doesn't learn from it's mistakes and seems doomed to carry on repeating them.

My country's involvement in the recent invasions of Iraq, Afghanistan and regime change in Libya, would be an example of this. Despite Historical evidence that doing this leads to disaster, they do it again thinking that this time the outcome will be different.

I marvel at the diversity of life and human beings, I don't want everyone to be the same, think the same, like the same books, music, art, believe in the same god (or believe at all).

Perhaps what I crave is order. A structure were all this diversity is possible without the need for people to impose their views and way of life on others (resulting in the untold misery and suffering that is evident in the world today). This is probably why I like Ian M Banks's "Culture" books so much.

The original question was posted to find out whether feeling/thinking this way was a symptom of AS. I don't think that that has been answered.

Perhaps at the age of 51, I need some professional help and I'm going or have always been potty.

Again Thanks for all the replies.

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