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Dealing with conservative types

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marshall
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01 Nov 2012, 5:36 pm

Callista wrote:
I don't think you're really talking about conservatives, OP. You're talking about people who are dogmatic and closed-minded, unable to consider other people's opinions. Liberals can be that way, too.

Regarding "most of what happens to people is what they deserve": This is probably a comforting thought for your brother, but it's a fallacy. It probably makes him feel more in control to believe that people who have bad things happen to them have merely gotten what they deserved, because it allows him to think that he can protect himself from bad things, because he doesn't deserve those things. Deep down, it comes from fear. Hopefully he will gain some maturity and reanalyze that, but for now, I advise you to remember that he makes these arguments because he is afraid, and will likely become defensive if you challenge his opinions and thereby "corner" him. I don't know what his issue is, but it seems to be a common one. Maybe the best approach is just to let him think what he likes; you won't be able to change his mind through logic, and a debate is useless if the participants aren't truly trying to understand each others' ideas.

More information here.


That's exactly what it is. It's a ridiculously self-serving philosophy.



Brock
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01 Nov 2012, 5:39 pm

But, don't you think there was a reason your mind went to the word "conservative" to describe that mentality?

And conversations always go weird places. It's no big thing.



marshall
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01 Nov 2012, 5:48 pm

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Last edited by marshall on 01 Nov 2012, 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

eric76
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01 Nov 2012, 5:51 pm

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Regarding "most of what happens to people is what they deserve": This is probably a comforting thought for your brother, but it's a fallacy.


I kind of think that in a bit different manner. We get the government we deserve. For example, whether we elect Obama or Romney, we will have the President that we deserve and have only ourselves to blame for the results.

We have a government that spends far more money than it brings in and thus expects our children, grandchildren, great grandchildren to pay for today's luxuries even though they won't benefit at all from them -- we elected the government and so we deserve the blame for impoverishing the future.



eric76
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01 Nov 2012, 5:54 pm

marshall wrote:
Brock wrote:
Anyone can win an argument by being selective with information provided. If you disregard the things that don't support your argument. In this case it is lazy rich people and motivated unlucky people.

And what if people are unmotivated due to a mental illness that blocks their ability to feel "motivation". Are they simply "bad people" for not feeling motivated. This line of thinking just makes me want to bust some conservatives a**hole's skull in with a f***ing pipe. These people are the enemy.


I would suggest that you seek psychological counseling at your earliest opportunity. You are really unhinged.



Callista
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01 Nov 2012, 6:00 pm

My guess is that Marshall is not literally homicidal, just very angry and trying to find a way to express it.

But if you are--heck yes, go get help. Aspies in prison for murder probably don't last long, and that's if your conscience doesn't strangle you first.


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knowbody15
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01 Nov 2012, 6:10 pm

Brock wrote:
knowbody15 wrote:
So, this isn't written in a jerky tone, but I know tone is difficult in writing on forums. You're definition of the problem is incorrect. You've defined conservative types incorrectly. Therefor the entire equation is false. You're question about the drunk driver, no one would ever think the innocent driver had brought his accident upon himself, the question has nothing to do with a conservative view of self reliance, which is what I think you mean when you say "everyone makes their own destiny and brings everything upon themselves". Which btw, people do think that, but it's certainly doesn't make someone conservative or not conservative. So your brother in laws response has nothing to do with being conservative, and you're original question to him has nothing to do with being a conservative, so you guys are talking about something completely different. Meanwhile, you're under the assumption that conservatives are a bunch of asshats....

I know a few people who are most likely on the spectrum who are very conservative btw.


I know what you mean. Conservatives are not defined by this idea, but it is a pretty common idea behind many of the republican policies. Many times more common in republicans than democrats. No one is trying to put anyone into a corner, but being that there are exceptions, we are forced to sort of speak in broader terms.


I guess what I'm saying is the idea of "everyone makes their own destiny and brings everything upon themselves" I think I get where the OP is coming from, but a conservative idea would be "everyone should have the choice and opportunity to create their own destiny. But in order to have that, people need to fail. And sometimes, people are at fault and they have brought bad things upon themselves." Both sides don't WANT people to fail, and both sides believe in helping people be successful. The difference is that a conservative view point would ask family, church, and community to help people succeed, while a more left leaning approach would ask the government to help people succeed.

this whole thing is the classic "conservatives are not compassionate" thing which simply isn't true.


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marshall
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01 Nov 2012, 6:12 pm

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Last edited by marshall on 01 Nov 2012, 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

marshall
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01 Nov 2012, 6:29 pm

knowbody15 wrote:
Brock wrote:
knowbody15 wrote:
So, this isn't written in a jerky tone, but I know tone is difficult in writing on forums. You're definition of the problem is incorrect. You've defined conservative types incorrectly. Therefor the entire equation is false. You're question about the drunk driver, no one would ever think the innocent driver had brought his accident upon himself, the question has nothing to do with a conservative view of self reliance, which is what I think you mean when you say "everyone makes their own destiny and brings everything upon themselves". Which btw, people do think that, but it's certainly doesn't make someone conservative or not conservative. So your brother in laws response has nothing to do with being conservative, and you're original question to him has nothing to do with being a conservative, so you guys are talking about something completely different. Meanwhile, you're under the assumption that conservatives are a bunch of asshats....

I know a few people who are most likely on the spectrum who are very conservative btw.


I know what you mean. Conservatives are not defined by this idea, but it is a pretty common idea behind many of the republican policies. Many times more common in republicans than democrats. No one is trying to put anyone into a corner, but being that there are exceptions, we are forced to sort of speak in broader terms.


I guess what I'm saying is the idea of "everyone makes their own destiny and brings everything upon themselves" I think I get where the OP is coming from, but a conservative idea would be "everyone should have the choice and opportunity to create their own destiny. But in order to have that, people need to fail. And sometimes, people are at fault and they have brought bad things upon themselves." Both sides don't WANT people to fail, and both sides believe in helping people be successful. The difference is that a conservative view point would ask family, church, and community to help people succeed, while a more left leaning approach would ask the government to help people succeed.

this whole thing is the classic "conservatives are not compassionate" thing which simply isn't true.

The thing is where is this so-called "community" for people who aren't religious? It doesn't exist. 99% of people are too busy taking care of their own life and family to care about others outside their tiny circle. They simply do not have the resources to solve huge modern problems. Would it make conservatives any happier if "big government" help for the poor was replaced with very local kinds of government social safety nets? The truth is in this day and age of small nuclear families with few children people simply aren't close-knit enough to take care of each other.



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01 Nov 2012, 6:30 pm

eric76 wrote:
I would suggest that you seek psychological counseling at your earliest opportunity. You are really unhinged.

It's probably hard to understand if you haven't been there. Personally, I don't find it hard to understand feelings of the masses that lead to Marie Antoinette's demise. I mean, I don't condone assault or murder ...but I understand (to steal an old Chris Rock joke).



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01 Nov 2012, 6:59 pm

marshall wrote:
The thing is where is this so-called "community" for people who aren't religious? It doesn't exist. 99% of people are too busy taking care of their own life and family to care about others outside their tiny circle. They simply do not have the resources to solve huge modern problems. Would it make conservatives any happier if "big government" help for the poor was replaced with very local kinds of government social safety nets? The truth is in this day and age of small nuclear families with few children people simply aren't close-knit enough to take care of each other.

Yes, and lot of our current social security programs in the USA were created because it was clear that churches, families, and so forth were not enough to do the job. Elderly people dying of hypothermia was a significant problem in the USA when social security for those over 65 was created. Why didn't the churches solve that so that it never became a problem needing a national solution in the first place?



marshall
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01 Nov 2012, 7:29 pm

Callista wrote:
My guess is that Marshall is not literally homicidal, just very angry and trying to find a way to express it.

But if you are--heck yes, go get help. Aspies in prison for murder probably don't last long, and that's if your conscience doesn't strangle you first.

People who use the "just world fallacy" to bash things they willfully refuse to understand makes me sick. I don't see why that kind of attitude doesn't push certain people straight over the edge. It seems too many people are just willing to take that kind of abuse from others and from certain sick societal attitudes in general. Maybe people who take such a view of the world see themselves as a "fighter" when in reality all they are doing is making pathetic excuses for injustice and assholery and some of the people they might demean as "victims" or "victim sympathizers" are in reality "fighters" too and will not simply lay down and submit to their assholery. I think some people really do just need a good hard ass kicking because that sort of hard-nosed mentality is all they understand.



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01 Nov 2012, 8:00 pm

Rarh this was a good thread but by the last page turned into nonsense.


Your mixing american politics which is utter nonsense with ideology.

Your mixing traditionalist, with conservatives, where although they have a lot in common or not the same.

Also people tend to ignore the very symbolic acts of authoritarianism found in republicanism and completely ignore the insane amount of freedom they provide, especially for us aspies. (just try starting a business in a place like canada and you will quickly understand the severe advantage nt`s have over us when things are over regulated. They get all the government jobs through there networking, they know how to manipulate every system for their own gain, and they are extremely superficial in terms of what they think should be banned, just think of how many aspies are persecuted for being insensitive.

I`m a liberal however, I think government and in general society oppress us to no end.



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01 Nov 2012, 8:12 pm

Brock wrote:
Verdandi. I know the feeling. I do sympathize. There are tons of rational conservatives. I do think your party has been ruined slowly, starting in the eighties. But we do still need to vote for one party or the other. There is no center really. Not anymore. Which is sad.


I am extremely liberal and far to the left. Not to the point of extremism, but I have more in common with leftist Marxist anarchists than most recognized political parties. I just know too many conservatives who are decent, likable people.

I agree with you that the leadership is destroying the Republican party, and I consider it a terrible thing. I also consider it terrible that they are working so hard to lead people into voting against their best interests.



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02 Nov 2012, 8:57 am

psychcentral.com

This article popped up all over the news a while back, about why the liberal and conservative mindsets never can quite see eye to eye. It does seem that the latest Republican gaffes are due to clinging to outdated prejudices from the 1950's and earlier. As for social nets being moved to the private sector, I don't trust corporations or religious institutions enough to implement them indiscriminately. When everyone is in hot water, it's every man/woman for themselves way too often.



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02 Nov 2012, 9:00 am

MjrMajorMajor wrote:
psychcentral.com

This article popped up all over the news a while back, about why the liberal and conservative mindsets never can quite see eye to eye. It does seem that the latest Republican gaffes are due to clinging to outdated prejudices from the 1950's and earlier. As for social nets being moved to the private sector, I don't trust corporations or religious institutions enough to implement them indiscriminately. When everyone is in hot water, it's every man/woman for themselves way too often.
Republicans and democrats are not left wing and right wing.

There he said and she said.

It's a pretend argument where one pretend to be the competitent villan while the other pretends to be the imcompetent good guy.

There is no actual reason for these people to be on either side, as there all rich folk that have very little interest in doing anything against their own self interest.

This is why they stick to silly ideas like abortion rights etc. Nobody with more than 10 bucks to their name actually cares, however it does create the notion that there is actual debate going on.