"identifying too much with autism"
21 Jan 2013, 2:43 pm
Several adults on the spectrum have talked to me about their autism-centric lives. They were either unemployed or had a boring, low-level job such as stocking shelves".
I read about the undiagnosed adults being successful in careers, but I was undiagnosed until 2 years ago but I was not even able to finish any education and have no career at all.
Before diagnosis I did never read about autism and since diagnosis I do.
It provides me a better understanding of myself and my issues I have.
I got diagnosed MFA.
Some people say, that I kind of obsess about reading and knowing about autism and I guess it became sort of a special interest, but before I had other special interests, but they didn't provide me with work, because I am very withdrawn and in "my own world" and before diagnosis I was not really able to recognize it as I was not really able to recognize "not being in an own world".
What is your opinion on "identifying too much with autism".
Can it be different
- for people diagnosed later in life?
- for people diagnosed early in life?
- does the internet make a difference as now one can gain more information about autism and talk online about it?
I do think that Temple Grandin certainly has a point here. We are more than our autism alone and sometimes we tend to forget that. As I have mentioned before on this forum; we are not defined by our autism alone.
On the other hand I think that it is logical to have a more than normal interest in autism when you are diagnosed with it.
It just shouldn't be our only focus in life.
21 Jan 2013, 10:29 pm
I find that expression puzzling (and annoying) too.
22 Jan 2013, 1:28 am
I find that expression puzzling (and annoying) too.
For what it's worth, I clarified my initial response on this earlier in the thread:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5171410.html#5171410
Admittedly, "excuse" was not a great choice of words on my part, because I think some people take any reason why you can't do something--even legitimate reasons--as excuses.
22 Jan 2013, 3:41 am
I find that expression puzzling (and annoying) too.
For what it's worth, I clarified my initial response on this earlier in the thread:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5171410.html#5171410
Admittedly, "excuse" was not a great choice of words on my part, because I think some people take any reason why you can't do something--even legitimate reasons--as excuses.
I guess I see two problems:
(1) I don't think ASD symptoms come in nice binary "can/can't" packages. Impairment of social interaction, for example, does not mean that you cannot interact with other people, it means that it is harder, sometimes a lot harder, to interact, depending on the circumstances. And it may be draining, even if you do it well enough for a short period. It is a matter of degrees, not all-or-nothing. I can feel quite comfortable in some social situations, and on the verge of an anxiety attack in others - and anywhere in between in other situations again. I may in fact be able to do something, but it might also be a lot harder for me than for most other people.
(2) I suspect that "using it as an excuse" is often a put-down: "You are not autistic. You are just making up excuses." Many people only believe in "visible" conditions - e.g. total blindness, being in a wheelchair, Down's syndrome, severe cerebral palsy, etc. Conditions where a person is "obviously disabled". They don't believe in "invisible" conditions - they think the person is just choosing to be different. So AS may simply be dismissed in total as an excuse, because people don't see it. They don't see differences in brain circuitry and brain chemicals, they just see people "acting weird". They just think people are refusing to "snap out of it". They think you could be "normal" if you chose to, as though AS were just a lifestyle choice. Think of all the problems that gay people have convincing the rest of the world that they are not just "choosing" to be different, that it is something that they cannot help being.
22 Jan 2013, 7:20 am
I can dig what Temple is saying.
I definitely identify with autism. It explains so much about who and what and how I am, and I am by and large grateful for the explanation. It gives me great pleasure to read and think and talk about it. If I were younger, I think I would go back to school for a psych degree and become an autism therapist or researcher. I have noticed that the best books on the subject are written by people on the spectrum, and I think we need more of us trying to help us.
I don't think that's a bad thing.
What I do think is a bad thing is identifying with the culture of limitation. I have things I will never be good at-- but I work at them anyway and continue to improve, however infinitessimally. I have famously always been too hard on myself, concentrating on my weaknesses without taking advantage of my strengths, so I might have gone too far with that.
I have been told so many times that I can't possibly, I shouldn't have tried, blah-blah-blah. I read so many people say, "I can't." Not, "I could, I guess, but it's not worth the investment to me." I don't have a problem with that-- everyone has the right to choose what they will and will not work on, that is a fundamental human right and being willing to do it I think is one of the differences between happy, fulfilled people and unhappy ones. "I can't" is different.
I know that's the thing my son does that infuriates me the most. He does not even have a diagnosis, but he is so very self-limiting. "I can't." "My brain won't do it." NO, honey. You CAN. You just might have to do it differently; we will have to figure out how doing it works for you. But you CAN, if you decide it is something you want or need to do.
That's the thing that bothers me. The culture of limitation, the culture of can't.
ETA: I'm not saying limitation is a bad thing. Everyone has limitations; there is no such thing as a limitless human being. That's a myth, and I'm not sure why it's been propagated. I guess maybe it's a manipulative thing. "You can be anything, anything at all-- so be what I want you to be."
What bothers me is reading people's limitations to them. Putting limits on someone else (or yourself) arbitrarily. Not supplying the idea that there could be work-arounds, alternatives, choices in the matter of what to do or how to go about doing it. It goes with the idea of the deficit model vs. the neurodiversity model, deficit vs. difference, et cetera et cetera.
Had she been raised in the culture of the last decade and a half, I think Dr. Grandin would be dependent. No career, no real and solid achievement-based self-esteem, none of the things she has accomplished. Look what we would have lost-- if not from the standpoint of information and opinions about autism, then from the standpoint of working with animals.
Where would she be if, instead of saying, "No one can have everything," her family had said, "Temple, you need to accept that you can't do this"???
I know where that attitude got me. It was a much easier life, but it was a life I wanted to end. I did not enjoy living as a disabled house plant. I would rather struggle. That's my choice-- but I have a right to make that choice.
Embracing autism and limitation IS a lifestyle choice. Struggling to appear NT is a lifestyle choice. Embracing autism and struggling to be the happiest and most functional autistic you you can be is a lifestyle choice. The problem is that a lot of modern culture treats only the second option as a valid choice, with the first being viewed as the better of two bad options and the latter being just silly.
That's wrong. All those choices are valid. That's the way it needs to be. Period end of story.
_________________
"Alas, our dried voices when we whisper together are quiet and meaningless, as wind in dry grass, or rats' feet over broken glass in our dry cellar." --TS Eliot, "The Hollow Men"
LovingTheAlien
Blue Jay
Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Age: 55
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22 Jan 2013, 8:06 am
When people say they are devastated, that is often part of the process of receiving a diagnosis like autism. It happens, people need to be able to process it.
That last one does not seem quite so likely. It seems to me that it is more typical for people to try to hard instead of not trying hard enough. However, it does seem relatively common for people to assume that people with disabilities don't try hard enough.
You are quite right. There is nothing wrong with comparing stims or needing time to cope with receiving a diagnosis. I am about to get an assessment for AS and I too might be a little obsessive about the topic right now. I guess this is a natural process.
However, I think it is becoming a problem if you let your diagnosis get in the way of your dreams. Yes, you will have to be realistic about what you can and cannot do. Yes, you will need to find a way to work around the unique obstacles you face as an Asperger. But that shouldn't keep you from trying to reach your full potential. If you use your diagnosis as an excuse to give up, you are on the wrong track IMHO. That being said, I am quite sure most AS people are trying very, very hard.
I think Temple Grandin's points are valid. It is fine to identify with autism, but there should be other things in our lives as well. Maybe we should be better at focusing on the good things, for instance our special interests.
22 Jan 2013, 1:28 pm
When people are comparing stims as if they were baseball cards, it is probably too much. When people say that they are devastated because they have gotten an AS diagnosis and now they can never become what they wanted to become, it is definitely too much.
If you let your diagnosis keep you from struggling to use your full potential and follow your dreams, you may be 'identifying too much'.
I agree with this and this is what i have been trying to say
yet failing badly at explaining as i got verdandi accusing me of a long list of things.
22 Jan 2013, 1:42 pm
It almost is to the point of a contest on who has what stims, which range from mild stims to those of LFA children.
Aspergers is the mildest end of the spectrum how many stims is an Aspie going to really have unless they are truly in a lower
section of the spectrum?
So it goes on and on like a contest to these kids who think its cool for some reason.
How do you know these things? Being diagnosed with AS does not mean that one is mild by any means. That is simply the common assumption because AS is frequently described as "a mild form of autism."
I do not know how one defines most stims as "mild" or as "those of LFA children." I have a lot of stims, and am usually stimming to some degree at all times. Why should I be forced to fit my diagnosis: "You were diagnosed AS, so you should have fewer stims?" Does that even make sense? Maybe I should have been diagnosed with autism or PDD-NOS instead, since I actually meet the criteria for autism.
I don't think it's a contest, though. I think people are trying to understand what effects autism has on them. I know it's been that way for me, and I doubt you would describe me as "young."
I don't see much point to dissecting motivations like this. When you've taken a largely negative and somewhat condescending perspective toward how others try to deal with being autistic, it seems more likely to generate antagonism than understanding.
Highly suggest you read my ENTIRE post before you attempt to accus me of being condescending and creating antagonism.
Here's the entire post:
It almost is to the point of a contest on who has what stims, which range from mild stims to those of LFA children.
Aspergers is the mildest end of the spectrum how many stims is an Aspie going to really have unless they are truly in a lower
section of the spectrum?
So it goes on and on like a contest to these kids who think its cool for some reason.
Maybe it can be chalked up to teenage immaturity and attention getting schemes on the web nowadays, as this seems to
be universal on different sites.
However it would be good to see all supporting each other and learning rather than having who stims the most or what do you make of this stim?.
I apologize for the rant. It's good to get it out.
I can identify with the OP when she says not always able to recognize being in her own world. When others finally got through to me that i was in my own world, it nearly blew my mind as i had no idea how out there i was and i honestly didn't think it noticeable. It is very noticeable by people, even strangers.
There is nothing wrong with learning about your diagnosis. It is good to, and we gain helpful insight into what we have, imo.
If we obsess over our diagnosis and worry in a negative way, i don't see that as very constructive. It is also good to know that others are out there for support and can understand.
Yet what Temple Grandin says is true, and it's easy to get stuck inside an obsession of research into any favorite topics. Yet the true passions in life is why define people.
If asked to describe myself i'd probably say "artist". A lot of others might say "Aspie".
I'm not going to describe myself as "HFA, BiPolar, ADHD" to anyone.
Also i don't work, i am on disability. I likely will never invent anything like Temple Grandin, or get famous for anything. I have no desire for making inventions or infamy. If i discovered something helpful by accident, i would make sure it got into the right hands to grow the idea.
Yet at my age, i am content in just trying to keep myself happy.
Not everyone on the spectrum is a rocket scientist and alot of Aspies on here seem to think that they have higher intelligence. Yes, according to Asperger's study; however this is not always the case. I know Aspies who have normal to below normal intelligence. My own is above normal, HFA yet i am not one to do much with my intelligence. I know a bunch of random facts about various topics i have had interests in over the years.
In the long run, by goal is for my wife and i to stay happy and just live our lives.
People don't need fame or wealth from inventions or science to live a happy fullfilled life.
22 Jan 2013, 2:04 pm
Verdani, you have qouted areas of my writing that you nitpicked for criticism and to antagonise me for no reason.
Had you read my entire post, maybe you should have asked me for clarification rather than started accusing me.
To be as offensive you have mean and actually say to me that i am condescending towards autism?... I am Autistic and i have no problem with it obviously or i wouldn't bother with this site.
With your close to 10,000 post count there, it's obvious you are obsessed with this site. Good for you.
Another thing is that i did state about certain things i am unsure of, i will say so. I don't care that i'm not a rocket scientist. I don't need to talk like a typical professor. Thats not my diagnosis.
Not everyone is a genius or savant. Temple Grandin wants young folks to really get involved in their passions as some can make a career of it, she is looking out for the future generations.
What i was referring to specifically was trends or fads in which teens think it's cool to have a diagnosis and since we actually have to take people at face value on this site. It could be hard to tell who is for real or not. Thats what i meant by comparing stims.
Like a fake did research on the net and then claimed that stim they saw as their own.
What i am trying to say is that i think that there are more serious issues that face our
community than just having questions of how many people do this stim or that stim (i.e)
A lot of people on here bring up excellent issues.
I can have a "division" of my own opinion as i am still formulating an opinion upon something.
Ask for clarification if you really want it please. Wait for response don't go attacking another of my posts since i didn't respond to your other. I don't always get on here. Ultimately it'll be up to me whether or not i respond to you at all.
Obviously the mods here are on your side with your obsessed 10,000 posts. If you claim such a high IQ then find your passion. It's Autism as you say, go into research or help others with Autism. Then i think Temple Grandin would understand. She wants people to find their potential.
22 Jan 2013, 3:57 pm
I have productive interests and interests that I have been able to develop to make money. Unfortunately, this was an unsustainable thing for me because whenever I work at a certain level - below what is sufficient to support myself - I end up having multiple shutdowns and then burnout. I can visualize things very well and design things in my head and make them without having to refer to drawings or whatever. I have some (but not all) of the abilities Temple Grandin has, although not necessarily to the same degree, but I never managed to revolutionize any industry.
I do not think identifying as autistic or focusing on autism is keeping anyone from being successful or whatever. I know in my case, that I have learned how to be more functional and productive since I was diagnosed, and prior to that not knowing was a significant barrier to my ability to accomplish anything. Talking about autism actually helps in this regard.
Verdandi if you have been that successful in making your own things to sell and support yourself, that is a good start. You could create or invent many things. Your obsession with Autism could even possibly help you create Autism products. That would be cool.
If you are having too many shutdowns then maybe you can apply for SSI. I get SSD and have the Medicare since i apply for these.
If you need to, you need to. Making things or creating inventions is awesome, yet everyone still needs the basics like food, to live.
Since you were diagnosed how did you learn to be more productive and functional? Did you get therapy or..? I'm curious as i would like to help myself with that.
22 Jan 2013, 4:28 pm
Y'know maybe Temple Grandin shouldn't police people's special interests. Exactly how do you inhibit your functioning by being interested in autism? Sure, people shouldn't use it as a crutch or think they are special just because they have it, but if you have an intense interest in a mental disorder then how does that inhibit your success? What if you want to specialize in autism? This is completely ludicrous.
Oh and incidentally, plenty of autistics are fixated on various "useful" subjects and are still unemployed.
22 Jan 2013, 4:33 pm
Oh and incidentally, plenty of autistics are fixated on various "useful" subjects and are still unemployed.
Agreed. Or alternatively, they may have a job that has nothing to do with their special interest.
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clarity of thought before rashness of action
22 Jan 2013, 5:02 pm
Having read the book mentioned in the openings thread I sometimes think - though I also read many good and great points she writes about autism, which I truly appreciate - that she doent't really take people into account, who did not have supporting parents and supporting mentors, as she had herself.
She writes about the undiagnosed adults with autism, who are having successful careers (like in computers), but not about the undiagnosed who struggle day in and day out, have developped severe anxiety, depression, social anxiety to mention just a few.
I followed a special interest, but a) I missed being neurotypicality which you need from a certain point on to be able to perform this special interest as a caeer and b) people called me "obsessive" in it and criticized me for being obsessive in it.
I could not change being obsessive in it (I thought that commitment is valuable), but people treated me like some weirdo because of my obsessive nature.
I do not know about children or adolescence being diagnosed early in life and maybe getting more understanding and support if they feel the need to "dive" into the subject of autism as much as maybe people do, who learned after many years of "failing" that there is a reason for them being different.
As obsession in autism is kind of natural it feels unnatural not wanting to learn about it, at least I feel this way.
I also encounter the stage that I think "I am not able to do this, because of my autism".
My sensory issues for example are quite severe and I have to take them into account.
This is no excuse, but it is a fact.
As I did not know that I was autistic, I force myself to ignore these sensory issues the best I could, but it was very contra-productive, as I developped severe anxiety and finally burn-out, which now leads to withdraw even more from people and activities.
But this is adressed in different sorts of therapies, thouh I hope, I will improve.
_________________
English is not my native language, so I will very likely do mistakes in writing or understanding. My edits are due to corrections of mistakes, which I sometimes recognize just after submitting a text.
22 Jan 2013, 5:34 pm
She writes about the undiagnosed adults with autism, who are having successful careers (like in computers), but not about the undiagnosed who struggle day in and day out, have developped severe anxiety, depression, social anxiety to mention just a few.
As someone who has had supportive parents and mentors, this will not necessarily prevent one from suffering "severe anxiety, depression, and social anxiety", as those are all problems that I still have to deal with.
I have more to say later, but I'm out of time for now.
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