Theory of mind?

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Turning this insight around-- the understanding of ones cat from the cat's angle, the complete and simple understanding of the cat can be world changing, not just for the cat and oneself, but of the entire world, as it is conscious direct perception. The biggest understanding of my life, which insight occurred when I was riding the bus one afternoon, is that each person cherishes himself, that this is directly connected to perception, and we are all interconnected in the present moment by perception because we have this one pure thing in common....we each cherish ourselves:-) Therefore, to start from the end of completely cherishing the other person is to connect 'two' perceptions to one. Past this point intellectual analysis is specifically not required because 'this' perception is in itself connected to all understanding, everywhere, from every possible angle, so instantaneously world changing. Joy![/quote]

I think this is a very profound and important insight!

Nice and twisted isn't it? What I mean by people need to stop making sence is this. Whatever these people are thinking, is not working for them. They need to stop making sence. Pritty much every neurotypical person I know gets me wrong to the point where it abuses me. Alot of these people think I'm like them, they give me these lines sometimes like "smart minds think alike", and I have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. That is not a deficiency on my part. These people made up this theory, and they have no idea how I think, or what goals I have from these thoughts. There goals are not mine. We do not think alike. These people do not understand me. In fact, now that I am older, I know that I understand others alot better than they understand me. In fact, some of the ways some think is no good. And they don't want to hear about it. If you tell some of these people the truth about themselves, they lash out at you.

I believe neurotypical people are alot better at making chains of abuse, lying, and putting things in a box to open up unexpectedly whenever it deems psychologically necessary. I also believe that there are alot more narcissists, and sociopaths out there than what statistics show. They hide themselves very well, in plain view. They are masters of it.

Do people understand the outcome of a pathological liar, narcissist, sociopath, or even a "healthy" narcissist believing they are coming to terms with your "theory of mind"? These people are telling you that lying is healthy. This sounds to me more like another attempt at mind control. If I let these cookoos know what I'm thinking they just take advantage of me.

They cannot understand how I think, because they are not me, plain and simple.


There is something in awareness that is believed by many to be real. It cannot be performed, or learned by deception, lies, or hiding your true self. If it is real, it would make theory of mind look like a preschool prank. It is called the matrix, and no, it is not the stuff you see in the movie. Most people do not want collective thought. They do not want you to know what they are really thinking. They would rather be seperate, implicate, control, not be exposed, and other things.

I think you are missing the point of what theory of mind is about. Theory of mind is what NTs use to work out what other NTs may be thinking so that we can interact well with them. There are 2 problems. The first one is the main one which is discussed, which is that aspies don't have such a well developed one. The other one (I personally think and I think that is what your complaint is) is that the NT theory of mind can sometimes break down when trying to apply it to an aspie. I think that this is actually something that tends to scare NTs to some degree because we're not used to it, which I think is what can cause some pretty unpleasant behaviour.




People often don't want to hear the truth - that can be very uncomfortable!



There are a few instances where lying is healthy. If someone buys you a present that you don't like, it is better for your relationship with them that you pretend that you do like it (and that can be to your benefit). Social interaction amongst NTs depends on people not saying everything that they think and occasionally lying to spare someone's feelings.

----Have a house full of crappy gifts? Not benificial. That's just great? Besides, it is known for narcissists to be horrible gift givers. They do it unpurpose. I know, my sister in law does it all the time. She gets off on it. Horrible woman. Feelings for her is something she uses more than something that is felt. It is just another lie. Why would you want to give someone a gift they don't like, unless of course it is the best you can do. I feel good when I give, and I really don't care if they don't, because it is the thought that counts. Stop making sence, stop lying, and please forgive me for being me.-----

The truth is a very honorable thing. You are not making me believe that NT's and theory of mind is not walking all over it. I don't like it. It is lowering us. It is unhealthy fairy tail stuff, and you eventually wind up with a house full of crappy gifts.

This thread:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt253550.html

A different perspective on ToM, this thread contains.

O.k., I'm sorry. I did not realize until just now that theory of mind is just a game. With no board, no dice, and no cards. I wish someone would have told me that a long time ago, before I got all bent out of shape because it makes no sence, or is it that it is supposed to make no sence? I can't remember?

When one thing does not work like the others, it is replaced with something else. Possibly even something better. That is how it reads out to me. It may even be supernatural

I guess now I do realize a little more why people have hated, and abused me so much in my life now. It has been explained in a new way for me. I guess NT's have breakdowns from me. In return, I get bouts of abuse, made fun of, bullied, scapegoated, fired, cast out, and eventually have a meltdown if I stick around. There are a few people I remember I could not figure out until now. I get it now. These people are supposed to have good healthy narcissistic coping skills. Another lie.

It is an unfortunate fact that many people do not react nicely to what they don't understand



If you genuinely suspect that she is just giving you gifts to annoy you then I think the best thing you can do is to say how you really appreciate her thinking of you - otherwise you are giving her satisfaction that she's annoyed you. You can't really lose that way - you aren't actually saying that you like the present so you aren't lying, if she is trying to annoy you then it has failed and if it is actually genuinely someone trying to show that they care but doing a bad job of it then you haven't hurt their feelings.

One thing to bear in mind is that NTs value feelings quite highly. In general, the priority will be to avoid upsetting someone rather than telling the truth and in many cases feelings take priority over things. In the case of the gift, it isn't the thing that has the value, it is the fact that effort was put into giving a gift. More effort is more valued, so if someone buys you something you actually want then that's appreciated even more, but the fact that someone gave you something at all is usually thought of as having value.

In the case of telling someone the truth, I think it really depends on the situation. eg. if you know someone was adopted and that they don't know that, telling them the truth might not be a good idea, certainly if they are a child. That doesn't mean that they should never be told, but it is probably best if it comes from their adoptive parents and it is really up to them to use their judgement what point is best to reveal that information so as to minimise any psychological damage. The same is true to a lesser degree with other things.

Are you saying that these factors cause autism or that they are contributing factors? And, whichever, causes or contributing factors,are you saying this applies in all kinds of autism or just in some?

All kinds of autism. Otherwise it is not autism, but something else.

Thanks for answering, but that is the second question and kind of subsidiary. The main question that came first is:



(p,s, someone replied to a message of yours about the autism card on that thread yesterday and then deleted it, but it called my attention to that message. I was not thinking this when I responded a little while ago, but I think it does fit into this subject here, also.)

These factors are autism.
Anything else you read into it, like an assumption that people are playing some kind of autism card, is your own subjective opinion.

I did not see the message you are talking about.

You were saying that autism is a result of these factors in that these factors have affected such a result, so therefore have caused autism and this replies to all kinds of autism. Just wanted to get this clear. I intend to respond to the rest of your message also, eventually, but just wanted to clarify this first point you are making from your angle. As you know, I am, approaching from a somewhat different perspective.

(Just wanted to mention that there is something very unusual about this day, for me, at least, and the energy on WP. It feels like it is a Sunday rather than a Thursday, and that there is a huge amount of activity on WP even though Thursday is one of the slowest days.. Maybe it is because of daylight savings time, but I don't know for sure:-)

What I meant was that a brain difference is what autism is.
As for that link to a previous post on a different thread, LOL it actually did make a little sense, although I think you read too much into things I say. But that is your way of expressing yourself.
I'm not very good at expressing myself.

Palladium. The other precious metal. Generally used as a catalyst. I did not say I do not understand this neurotypical garble. I understand the way these people think, about the games, and winning, and lying, or embellishing, or whatever you want to call it. I understand these people beat around the bush so to speak, because they have feelings, and do not want to use them for their intended purpose. Like covering up the truth in order to be happy, when they should be sad, or actually doing something about it to make things better. I also understand that giving yourself a psychological problem, doing drugs, or lying, even though your happy, is not a fix. I understand that it is called a coping skill, so you can join the army, kill people, and still feel good about yourself or whatever. I understand that neurotypical people try to make me behave like them, understand them, and punish me if I am not (more than you would ever know I'm sure). I can pretend to be neurotypical, just like neurotypicals pretend every day. Unfortunately, my mind doesn't operate that way. Something within me does not allow it. When I try to behave like these people, eventually my mind rejects it. Believe me when I tell you, it is not a good thing for me. Out of all this neurotypical babbaling, not once have you said anything about being fair, and honest. If I cannot be that way, and others around me, my life will be a tragedy. I need to believe that my life is not a game. Others are not either. It is what it is.

If you had high functioning autism, or autism in general, and talked they way you do, you would probably believe that you are broken, and you need to be fixed.

There was this guy who chopped down a cherry tree, and he could not tell a lie. Who was he? A great man that's who. He is us, and we are with him.

Name chosen more or less at random for this forum because I'd prefer not to reveal my identity. Not sure how I ended up with that - you know more than I do about it!



Is it better for someone to know the truth if it doesn't help them but it makes them unhappy?



What about when they can't do anything about it?



Lying is something that even as an NT, I am uncomfortable with. I am not even comfortable with keeping information from people. However, I do believe that there are times when it is the right thing to do.



I don't really see that as the same thing at all.



Most people will think they are helping.



I haven't used those words but those concepts are what I felt I was talking about. Is it fair and honest to tell a child who has been adopted that they have been? Is it fair and honest to hurt someone's feelings if they have made an effort to buy you a present but bought the wrong thing? I would say no in both these cases - my conscience would not allow me to be comfortable with either of these. I do believe that the truth is very important, but I also believe that there are times when other things can be more important. At the same time, I do acknowledge that the world in general is not as concerned with truth as it should be in many areas.



I certainly don't see it as a game. It is not uncommon for me to spend time thinking long and hard about whether I should tell someone something or whether it is best to leave it.



I appreciate that. I am who I am. I explain my perspective, you explain yours. We are obviously both trying to do what we believe is right and what is right for one of us isn't necessarily for the other. Hopefully we both go away from this discussion with a better understanding of each other which I hope we'll both benefit from.