Do you think people with ADHD are NT?
Verdandi
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Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)
23 Mar 2014, 7:13 pm
DVCal wrote:
People with just ADHD don't have inappropriately wired brains like we on the spectrum do. While obviously have some minor issues, it is nothing like our poorly wired from birth brains.
And what is the basis for this statement? You made a similar (and similarly ignorant) statement in another thread about ADHD. Where do you get this knowledge that you can proclaim it to be true without reference to the reams of research on the topic, or the international statement on ADHD that dianthus posted.
What is actually kind of disturbing is seeing this kind of ADHD denialism on an autism forum. I mean everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but trashing other disabling diagnoses like this strikes me as hypocritical, especially from one who argues so frequently as to how awful it is to be autistic.
I believe the common idiom for such a thing is "throwing them under the bus."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throw_under_the_bus
20 Sep 2020, 12:02 am
Wow another necro-post and my old friend Verdandi (hope she is keeping well in COVID-19)
My daughter had a friend in primary school with ADHD a number of years ago. He was fairly NT and had NT friends but was like a squirrel constantly unable to focus on one thing and always scampering around from here to there. He typically was fidgety and pulled things in his parent's house constantly so was sometimes difficult to manage.
I think with medication and outlets like sport he was able to cope and complete school work but eventually his parents pulled him from our primary school after a couple of years and I never saw them again.
20 Sep 2020, 1:05 am
No. I hate it when people just think ADHD is not a valid disorder and is just a hyperactive child or a personality difference.
An extroverted, loud, popular kid in the classroom is different to a kid with ADHD in the classroom. Sure, usually the more extroverted a kid is, the less often they like to sit still and listen and instead keep impulsively talking to their friends. But that is still not ADHD. A child with ADHD often has difficulties with taking in new information due to lack of attention span and memory problems. This can be frustrating for the child, and they often require extra support and can even have trouble fitting in with their peers.
I remember there was this boy at college with ADHD, and he seemed severely affected. He was unintentionally so disruptive in the classes that they had to take him out most of the time and get him to sit in the office with some paperwork and very little distractions. Apparently he went to a special school when he was a kid. He had a twin brother who didn't have ADHD, and he was presumably NT and wasn't at all like him, and neither was his other brothers and sisters (this is what his twin told us). So it wasn't his upbringing or anything that caused his behaviour problems. He just had this disorder.
_________________
Female
20 Sep 2020, 2:37 am
Yeah I think that makes sense. The critical point is that ADHD exists on a spectrum like ASD. So kids with chronic ADHD that's less severe may be able socially function and be able to manage their symptoms with medication/therapy like my daughter's friend. It certainly doesn't apply to more severe ADHD where there is a complete breakdown of an ability to function socially or in school even with interventions.
20 Sep 2020, 4:07 pm
I think it’s more complicated than a simple “yes” or “no” for everyone with an ADHD label. Some people seem very disabled by it while some can pass as NT, especially in areas where Aspies struggle. Some tend to have very poor executive function which affects things like organization and schoolwork but do just fine socially and can handle change well, even thrive on it. The ones who seem obviously ND tend to be the ones with other comorbid conditions, like ASD, conduct disorder or another learning disability.
20 Sep 2020, 5:17 pm
A lot of people are ignorant when it comes to ADHD because they think that it is not a valid disorder and that they are just traits that everyone has. Gggrr!! ! That drives me mad!! !! Does Bipolar disorder not exist because "everyone has mood swings"? Does dementia not exist because "everyone forgets things sometimes"? Does dyspraxia not exist because "everyone can be clumsy"? So same with ADHD. It. Exists. OK???
Maybe if ADHD had a fancy name like Asperger's, or a misleading Latin name like Hyperism, instead of just abbreviations, then maybe people might take it more seriously.
_________________
Female
20 Sep 2020, 6:49 pm
Joe90 wrote:
A lot of people are ignorant when it comes to ADHD because they think that it is not a valid disorder and that they are just traits that everyone has. Gggrr!! ! That drives me mad!! ! ! Does Bipolar disorder not exist because "everyone has mood swings"? Does dementia not exist because "everyone forgets things sometimes"? Does dyspraxia not exist because "everyone can be clumsy"? So same with ADHD. It. Exists. OK???
Maybe if ADHD had a fancy name like Asperger's, or a misleading Latin name like Hyperism, instead of just abbreviations, then maybe people might take it more seriously.
Maybe if ADHD had a fancy name like Asperger's, or a misleading Latin name like Hyperism, instead of just abbreviations, then maybe people might take it more seriously.
I think that part of the reason for this is that the criteria of what it means to be ADHD has become so broad that it has stopped making sense. I’m not saying that it doesn’t exist but I can see why people say that they are traits that everyone has, because they are. The difference being whether they significantly interfere with your life or not, which is very subjective and can lead to over/misdiagnosis.
Since researching ASD I’ve also had articles on ADHD pop up into my FB newsfeed, I guess because the two are related. It seems like every week, there’s an article about some new “ADHD” trait that can also be a symptom of 10 other disorders, or even a result of trauma or abuse.
So I think reason that people are ignorant about it and think it applies to everyone is partly the fault of “experts” who try to paint every psychological symptom or problem in someone’s life that can have multiple causes as being a result of “untreated ADD”.
20 Sep 2020, 8:58 pm
LisaM1031 wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
A lot of people are ignorant when it comes to ADHD because they think that it is not a valid disorder and that they are just traits that everyone has. Gggrr!! ! That drives me mad!! ! ! Does Bipolar disorder not exist because "everyone has mood swings"? Does dementia not exist because "everyone forgets things sometimes"? Does dyspraxia not exist because "everyone can be clumsy"? So same with ADHD. It. Exists. OK???
Maybe if ADHD had a fancy name like Asperger's, or a misleading Latin name like Hyperism, instead of just abbreviations, then maybe people might take it more seriously.
Maybe if ADHD had a fancy name like Asperger's, or a misleading Latin name like Hyperism, instead of just abbreviations, then maybe people might take it more seriously.
I think that part of the reason for this is that the criteria of what it means to be ADHD has become so broad that it has stopped making sense. I’m not saying that it doesn’t exist but I can see why people say that they are traits that everyone has, because they are. The difference being whether they significantly interfere with your life or not, which is very subjective and can lead to over/misdiagnosis.
Since researching ASD I’ve also had articles on ADHD pop up into my FB newsfeed, I guess because the two are related. It seems like every week, there’s an article about some new “ADHD” trait that can also be a symptom of 10 other disorders, or even a result of trauma or abuse.
So I think reason that people are ignorant about it and think it applies to everyone is partly the fault of “experts” who try to paint every psychological symptom or problem in someone’s life that can have multiple causes as being a result of “untreated ADD”.
I've noticed that ASD is becoming like that these days too. ASD has become so broad, and the excuse is always "well everybody's different", which makes it hard to know where the line is drawn.
A bit like my brother. I think my brother is either a depressive NT with low self-esteem, or at least PDD-NOS, but somehow he still managed to get a diagnosis of Asperger's last year.
He has always had low self-esteem issues, is rather shy, and has suffered with depression and anxiety since he was a teenager. But other than that, he's never had sensory issues, or need for routine, or had any special interests or repetitive behaviours, and he fitted in well at school among the popular kids despite being shy, and even now he makes friends quite easily and enjoys social gatherings. The only time he isolates himself is if he's having one of his bouts of depression, which involves him crying and feeling angry.
But he still somehow got a diagnosis of Asperger's (or HFA) last year. I reckon he lied on his assessment form though, as I read through it and there were a lot of behaviours that he didn't have as a child that he ticked. I'd know that because we were close and I knew him well. I was diagnosed with Asperger's in childhood but nobody ever suspected him to have Asperger's, not in a million years. And I'm a female, on the mild end of the spectrum. It's usually the girls who get diagnosed later than the boys, as symptoms of any disorder is often more pronounced in boys.
But, anyway, back to ADHD, it's like any disorder - you only have it if you have enough symptoms grouped together that forms a disorder. Like I said before, if ADHD had a fancy name like Asperger's does, instead of just an abbreviation, it will be better seen as a disorder.
A close friend of mine has a 6-year-old who has just been diagnosed with ADHD. She requires extra support at school, sees a child counsellor to talk about her worries, is prone to temper tantrums, and requires a slightly different routine and structure at home to her sisters (who aren't ADHD or have any other disorder). The certain routine and structure isn't wished by the child, but is a thoughtful parenting technique to help understand that one of their children has a slightly different thinking style to the other two children so needs a different set of structures both at home and at school.
She suffers from shyness in the classroom, but as soon as she's out in the playground or gets home, she is "bouncing off the walls", unlike her two sisters. But it's not just ordinary child hyperactivity. The parents are rather strict and don't give any of their children much sugar, so it's not her diet or anything, as all 3 children eat the same things. It's just that she has a disorder that she was probably born with.
_________________
Female
20 Sep 2020, 9:19 pm
The criteria for ASD is clearly defined in the DSM-5. From the CDC website:
Quote:
Diagnostic Criteria for 299.00 Autism Spectrum Disorder
To meet diagnostic criteria for ASD according to DSM-5, a child must have persistent deficits in each of three areas of social communication and interaction (see A.1. through A.3. below) plus at least two of four types of restricted, repetitive behaviors (see B.1. through B.4. below).
A. Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts, as manifested by the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text):
1. Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions.
2. Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication.
3. Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understand relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends; to absence of interest in peers.
Specify current severity:
Severity is based on social communication impairments and restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior.
B. Restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities, as manifested by at least two of the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text):
1. Stereotyped or repetitive motor movements, use of objects, or speech (e.g., simple motor stereotypes, lining up toys or flipping objects, echolalia, idiosyncratic phrases).
2. Insistence on sameness, inflexible adherence to routines, or ritualized patterns of verbal or nonverbal behavior (e.g., extreme distress at small changes, difficulties with transitions, rigid thinking patterns, greeting rituals, need to take same route or eat same food every day).
3. Highly restricted, fixated interests that are abnormal in intensity or focus (e.g., strong attachment to or preoccupation with unusual objects, excessively circumscribed or perseverative interests).
4. Hyper- or hyporeactivity to sensory input or unusual interest in sensory aspects of the environment (e.g. apparent indifference to pain/temperature, adverse response to specific sounds or textures, excessive smelling or touching of objects, visual fascination with lights or movement).
Specify current severity:
Severity is based on social communication impairments and restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior.
C. Symptoms must be present in the early developmental period (but may not become fully manifest until social demands exceed limited capacities, or may be masked by learned strategies in later life).
D. Symptoms cause clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of current functioning.
E. These disturbances are not better explained by intellectual disability (intellectual developmental disorder) or global developmental delay. Intellectual disability and autism spectrum disorder frequently co-occur; to make comorbid diagnoses of autism spectrum disorder and intellectual disability, social communication should be below that expected for general developmental level.
Note: Individuals with a well-established DSM-IV diagnosis of autistic disorder, Asperger’s disorder, or pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified should be given the diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder. Individuals who have marked deficits in social communication, but whose symptoms do not otherwise meet criteria for autism spectrum disorder, should be evaluated for social (pragmatic) communication disorder.
Specify if:
With or without accompanying intellectual impairmentWith or without accompanying language impairment
Associated with a known medical or genetic condition or environmental factor
(Coding note: Use additional code to identify the associated medical or genetic condition.)
Associated with another neurodevelopmental, mental, or behavioral disorder
(Coding note: Use additional code[s] to identify the associated neurodevelopmental, mental, or behavioral disorder[s].
With catatonia (refer to the criteria for catatonia associated with another mental disorder)
(Coding note: Use additional code 293.89 catatonia associated with autism spectrum disorder to indicate the presence of the comorbid catatonia.)
To meet diagnostic criteria for ASD according to DSM-5, a child must have persistent deficits in each of three areas of social communication and interaction (see A.1. through A.3. below) plus at least two of four types of restricted, repetitive behaviors (see B.1. through B.4. below).
A. Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts, as manifested by the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text):
1. Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions.
2. Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication.
3. Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understand relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends; to absence of interest in peers.
Specify current severity:
Severity is based on social communication impairments and restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior.
B. Restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities, as manifested by at least two of the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text):
1. Stereotyped or repetitive motor movements, use of objects, or speech (e.g., simple motor stereotypes, lining up toys or flipping objects, echolalia, idiosyncratic phrases).
2. Insistence on sameness, inflexible adherence to routines, or ritualized patterns of verbal or nonverbal behavior (e.g., extreme distress at small changes, difficulties with transitions, rigid thinking patterns, greeting rituals, need to take same route or eat same food every day).
3. Highly restricted, fixated interests that are abnormal in intensity or focus (e.g., strong attachment to or preoccupation with unusual objects, excessively circumscribed or perseverative interests).
4. Hyper- or hyporeactivity to sensory input or unusual interest in sensory aspects of the environment (e.g. apparent indifference to pain/temperature, adverse response to specific sounds or textures, excessive smelling or touching of objects, visual fascination with lights or movement).
Specify current severity:
Severity is based on social communication impairments and restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior.
C. Symptoms must be present in the early developmental period (but may not become fully manifest until social demands exceed limited capacities, or may be masked by learned strategies in later life).
D. Symptoms cause clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of current functioning.
E. These disturbances are not better explained by intellectual disability (intellectual developmental disorder) or global developmental delay. Intellectual disability and autism spectrum disorder frequently co-occur; to make comorbid diagnoses of autism spectrum disorder and intellectual disability, social communication should be below that expected for general developmental level.
Note: Individuals with a well-established DSM-IV diagnosis of autistic disorder, Asperger’s disorder, or pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified should be given the diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder. Individuals who have marked deficits in social communication, but whose symptoms do not otherwise meet criteria for autism spectrum disorder, should be evaluated for social (pragmatic) communication disorder.
Specify if:
With or without accompanying intellectual impairmentWith or without accompanying language impairment
Associated with a known medical or genetic condition or environmental factor
(Coding note: Use additional code to identify the associated medical or genetic condition.)
Associated with another neurodevelopmental, mental, or behavioral disorder
(Coding note: Use additional code[s] to identify the associated neurodevelopmental, mental, or behavioral disorder[s].
With catatonia (refer to the criteria for catatonia associated with another mental disorder)
(Coding note: Use additional code 293.89 catatonia associated with autism spectrum disorder to indicate the presence of the comorbid catatonia.)
How is this too broad?
20 Sep 2020, 9:53 pm
Jiheisho wrote:
The criteria for ASD is clearly defined in the DSM-5. From the CDC website:
How is this too broad?
Quote:
Diagnostic Criteria for 299.00 Autism Spectrum Disorder
To meet diagnostic criteria for ASD according to DSM-5, a child must have persistent deficits in each of three areas of social communication and interaction (see A.1. through A.3. below) plus at least two of four types of restricted, repetitive behaviors (see B.1. through B.4. below).
A. Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts, as manifested by the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text):
1. Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions.
2. Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication.
3. Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understand relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends; to absence of interest in peers.
Specify current severity:
Severity is based on social communication impairments and restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior.
B. Restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities, as manifested by at least two of the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text):
1. Stereotyped or repetitive motor movements, use of objects, or speech (e.g., simple motor stereotypes, lining up toys or flipping objects, echolalia, idiosyncratic phrases).
2. Insistence on sameness, inflexible adherence to routines, or ritualized patterns of verbal or nonverbal behavior (e.g., extreme distress at small changes, difficulties with transitions, rigid thinking patterns, greeting rituals, need to take same route or eat same food every day).
3. Highly restricted, fixated interests that are abnormal in intensity or focus (e.g., strong attachment to or preoccupation with unusual objects, excessively circumscribed or perseverative interests).
4. Hyper- or hyporeactivity to sensory input or unusual interest in sensory aspects of the environment (e.g. apparent indifference to pain/temperature, adverse response to specific sounds or textures, excessive smelling or touching of objects, visual fascination with lights or movement).
Specify current severity:
Severity is based on social communication impairments and restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior.
C. Symptoms must be present in the early developmental period (but may not become fully manifest until social demands exceed limited capacities, or may be masked by learned strategies in later life).
D. Symptoms cause clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of current functioning.
E. These disturbances are not better explained by intellectual disability (intellectual developmental disorder) or global developmental delay. Intellectual disability and autism spectrum disorder frequently co-occur; to make comorbid diagnoses of autism spectrum disorder and intellectual disability, social communication should be below that expected for general developmental level.
Note: Individuals with a well-established DSM-IV diagnosis of autistic disorder, Asperger’s disorder, or pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified should be given the diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder. Individuals who have marked deficits in social communication, but whose symptoms do not otherwise meet criteria for autism spectrum disorder, should be evaluated for social (pragmatic) communication disorder.
Specify if:
With or without accompanying intellectual impairmentWith or without accompanying language impairment
Associated with a known medical or genetic condition or environmental factor
(Coding note: Use additional code to identify the associated medical or genetic condition.)
Associated with another neurodevelopmental, mental, or behavioral disorder
(Coding note: Use additional code[s] to identify the associated neurodevelopmental, mental, or behavioral disorder[s].
With catatonia (refer to the criteria for catatonia associated with another mental disorder)
(Coding note: Use additional code 293.89 catatonia associated with autism spectrum disorder to indicate the presence of the comorbid catatonia.)
To meet diagnostic criteria for ASD according to DSM-5, a child must have persistent deficits in each of three areas of social communication and interaction (see A.1. through A.3. below) plus at least two of four types of restricted, repetitive behaviors (see B.1. through B.4. below).
A. Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts, as manifested by the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text):
1. Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions.
2. Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication.
3. Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understand relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends; to absence of interest in peers.
Specify current severity:
Severity is based on social communication impairments and restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior.
B. Restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, or activities, as manifested by at least two of the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive; see text):
1. Stereotyped or repetitive motor movements, use of objects, or speech (e.g., simple motor stereotypes, lining up toys or flipping objects, echolalia, idiosyncratic phrases).
2. Insistence on sameness, inflexible adherence to routines, or ritualized patterns of verbal or nonverbal behavior (e.g., extreme distress at small changes, difficulties with transitions, rigid thinking patterns, greeting rituals, need to take same route or eat same food every day).
3. Highly restricted, fixated interests that are abnormal in intensity or focus (e.g., strong attachment to or preoccupation with unusual objects, excessively circumscribed or perseverative interests).
4. Hyper- or hyporeactivity to sensory input or unusual interest in sensory aspects of the environment (e.g. apparent indifference to pain/temperature, adverse response to specific sounds or textures, excessive smelling or touching of objects, visual fascination with lights or movement).
Specify current severity:
Severity is based on social communication impairments and restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior.
C. Symptoms must be present in the early developmental period (but may not become fully manifest until social demands exceed limited capacities, or may be masked by learned strategies in later life).
D. Symptoms cause clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of current functioning.
E. These disturbances are not better explained by intellectual disability (intellectual developmental disorder) or global developmental delay. Intellectual disability and autism spectrum disorder frequently co-occur; to make comorbid diagnoses of autism spectrum disorder and intellectual disability, social communication should be below that expected for general developmental level.
Note: Individuals with a well-established DSM-IV diagnosis of autistic disorder, Asperger’s disorder, or pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified should be given the diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder. Individuals who have marked deficits in social communication, but whose symptoms do not otherwise meet criteria for autism spectrum disorder, should be evaluated for social (pragmatic) communication disorder.
Specify if:
With or without accompanying intellectual impairmentWith or without accompanying language impairment
Associated with a known medical or genetic condition or environmental factor
(Coding note: Use additional code to identify the associated medical or genetic condition.)
Associated with another neurodevelopmental, mental, or behavioral disorder
(Coding note: Use additional code[s] to identify the associated neurodevelopmental, mental, or behavioral disorder[s].
With catatonia (refer to the criteria for catatonia associated with another mental disorder)
(Coding note: Use additional code 293.89 catatonia associated with autism spectrum disorder to indicate the presence of the comorbid catatonia.)
How is this too broad?
I think the issue for both ASD and ADHD is not the DSM criteria itself but that it gets misapplied. Like a person may really have only one or two traits and the clinician slaps them with a label anyway. Also I’ve noticed the trend of what I like to call “diagnosing backwards.” For example, a person with ADHD or ASD may be more prone to things like anxiety, depression or other learning disorders, but that doesn’t mean that a person who has depression or symptoms of dyslexia automatically has ADHD. There are actually specialists out there, usually those who specialize in One disorder in particular, like an ADHD specialist, who will view these associated disorders as automatic signs of ADHD or AS, when the logic doesn’t necessarily work both ways.
20 Sep 2020, 9:56 pm
whitetiger wrote:
I was first diagnosed NT with aspie traits and non-verbal learning disability. Then, another psychiatrist dug deeper, asking for baby book records and interviews by family. He diagnosed HFA.
Then, a vocational counselor diagnosed me with Asperger's. Then, a neuropsych center also diagnosed AS. I moved to Oregon and found out my AS is moderate to severe (through a functional assessment) but I don't know how low it is, since I haven't seen my report yet.
I guess the moral is: More information helps for a more in depth analysis, and we are not all what we appear to be on the surface at a first assessment.
Then, a vocational counselor diagnosed me with Asperger's. Then, a neuropsych center also diagnosed AS. I moved to Oregon and found out my AS is moderate to severe (through a functional assessment) but I don't know how low it is, since I haven't seen my report yet.
I guess the moral is: More information helps for a more in depth analysis, and we are not all what we appear to be on the surface at a first assessment.
madbutnotmad wrote:
I believe what you guys are trying to explain is that you believe that psychological conditioning created by being brought up by a person with autism spectrum disorder can lead to a person learning to behave like a person with autism spectrum disorder while not actually suffering from autism spectrum disorder.
In such cases, such a person would actually not suffer from autism spectrum disorder but instead would simply emulate a person who suffers from autism spectrum disorder in some mannerisms / behaviour traits.
Emulating a condition due to psychological conditioning is not the same as having a neurological condition.
For example, a child of someone who is blind who is not blind, who has learnt to read braille does not suddenly become blind after they have learnt the reading braille behaviour that is common among those who are blind.
Emulating a blind person reading braille does not suddenly make the non blind person blind.
To suggest that it would, would be absolutely ridiculous, as is the suggestion that a child growing up with a person with autism spectrum disorder can suddenly suffer from autism spectrum disorder due to upbringing.
A person is either born or develops Autism Spectrum Disorder through abnormal brain development during the early years of a person's life. You can not catch it like a cold, you can not learn to have it. You either have it or you do not.
I helped bring up my niece, who is now 16 years old, and although she may share some of the values that i and my parents hold, she does not suffer from autism spectrum disorder, she has not been psychologically conditioned by her exposure to me as a child.
learnt traits and mannerisms, language is not the same as abnormal neurological networks, which are present in the neurological developmental disorder called autism spectrum disorder.
You may be able to "act" like someone who has autism spectrum disorder, by copying behaviour, perhaps even to the extent that you may fool a clinical psychologist during the diagnostic process, you may even be able to get others to collaborate fabricated history that supports your case, doing so still would not make you have the condition, even if you were to get formally diagnosed.
The condition is not a learnt condition but a real physical phenomena that can be proven with a fMRI scanner.
In such cases, such a person would actually not suffer from autism spectrum disorder but instead would simply emulate a person who suffers from autism spectrum disorder in some mannerisms / behaviour traits.
Emulating a condition due to psychological conditioning is not the same as having a neurological condition.
For example, a child of someone who is blind who is not blind, who has learnt to read braille does not suddenly become blind after they have learnt the reading braille behaviour that is common among those who are blind.
Emulating a blind person reading braille does not suddenly make the non blind person blind.
To suggest that it would, would be absolutely ridiculous, as is the suggestion that a child growing up with a person with autism spectrum disorder can suddenly suffer from autism spectrum disorder due to upbringing.
A person is either born or develops Autism Spectrum Disorder through abnormal brain development during the early years of a person's life. You can not catch it like a cold, you can not learn to have it. You either have it or you do not.
I helped bring up my niece, who is now 16 years old, and although she may share some of the values that i and my parents hold, she does not suffer from autism spectrum disorder, she has not been psychologically conditioned by her exposure to me as a child.
learnt traits and mannerisms, language is not the same as abnormal neurological networks, which are present in the neurological developmental disorder called autism spectrum disorder.
You may be able to "act" like someone who has autism spectrum disorder, by copying behaviour, perhaps even to the extent that you may fool a clinical psychologist during the diagnostic process, you may even be able to get others to collaborate fabricated history that supports your case, doing so still would not make you have the condition, even if you were to get formally diagnosed.
The condition is not a learnt condition but a real physical phenomena that can be proven with a fMRI scanner.
Jiheisho wrote:
madbutnotmad wrote:
I believe what you guys are trying to explain is that you believe that psychological conditioning created by being brought up by a person with autism spectrum disorder can lead to a person learning to behave like a person with autism spectrum disorder while not actually suffering from autism spectrum disorder.
I'm not. ASD is a cognitive problem, but not a personality disorder or an intellectual disorder, although things can be co-morbid. You can't grow out of your autism nor train yourself out of it. What distinguishes autism from NT cognitive psychology is the difference in social interaction. It is a lifelong condition.
But ASD is a clinical diagnosis that specifies the need for support. If you learn to function and need no support, you will still have ASD, but the clinical diagnosis might not be needed.
I am starting to think that criteria for ASD is way too broad.
I think that it is too broad and I am afraid the spectrum is more than just a full-blown disorder, it can also include anyone who are undiagnosed that have traits of ASD.
In reality, being neurotypical means that you are not never diagnosed and never diagnosed until you get diagnosed one way or another.
I think we really should stop calling anyone NT, just because they don’t have diagnosis of ASD or any mental health and developmental disorders for that matter, because we may never know if they have the same or similar issues as us, but were not diagnosed at the time, or they suffered like us, but they were never diagnosed for the rest of their lives
There are also reports or stories that some lose their ASD diagnosis as they get older, just because they got improved, even though some forget that ASD is a developmental disorder ( especially milder forms of ASD ) and a developmental disorder is something you have for the rest of your life.
Even my brother's friend said he was diagnosed with Autism, but he thinks it is stupid, because from his perspective, it never caused him any distress in daily life, but his doctors thought otherwise.
Developmental disorders comprise a group of psychiatric conditions originating in childhood that involve serious impairment in different areas. There are several ways of using this term.
[1]
The most narrow concept is used in the category "Specific Disorders of Psychological Development" in the ICD-10.
[1]
These disorders comprise developmental language disorder, learning disorders, motor disorders, and autism spectrum disorders.
[2]
In broader definitions ADHD is included, and the term used is neurodevelopmental disorders.
[1]
Yet others include antisocial behavior and schizophrenia that begins in childhood and continues through life.
[1]
However, these two latter conditions are not as stable as the other developmental disorders, and there is not the same evidence of a shared genetic liability.
[1]
Developmental disorders are present from early life. Most improve as the child grows older, but some entail impairments that continue throughout life. There is a strong genetic component; more males are afflicted than females.
[1]
This is just an example, but it’s not accurate.
Females should get the same treatments and therapies just like men get.
Should we change the criteria for Autism Spectrum disorder? In order to have diagnosis of ASD you need to have traits of part of ASD for four months, after 12 months of age and if traits are gone after more four months you are developmentally delayed.
In order to qualify for diagnosis of Pervasive Developmental Disorder, symptoms must be present for four months right before the age of one.
Autism can be diagnosed at age through 0-3 years of age, but moderate to milder form of Autism can be diagnosed at the age of 4+
According to Wikipedia a chronic condition is a health condition or disease that is persistent or otherwise long-lasting in its effects or a disease that comes with time. The term chronic is often applied when the course of the disease lasts for more than three months.
Even if symptoms of Autism is gone, you are still considered to have history of developmental delay, because the traits of ASD lasted for more than three months
Symptoms of ASD for four months before the age of one:
1. Not respond to their name by 12 months of age
2. Not point at objects to show interest (point at an airplane flying over) by 14 months
3. Not play “pretend” games (pretend to “feed” a doll) by 18 months
4. Avoid eye contact and want to be alone
5. Have trouble understanding other people’s feelings or talking about their own feelings
6. Have delayed speech and language skills
7. Repeat words or phrases over and over (echolalia)
8. Give unrelated answers to questions
9. Get upset by minor changes
10. Have obsessive interests
11. Flap their hands, rock their body, or spin in circles
12. Have unusual reactions to the way things sound, smell, taste, look, or feel
13. Does not respond to name by 12 months of age
14. Avoids eye-contact
15. Prefers to play alone
16. Does not share interests with others
17. Only interacts to achieve a desired goal
18. Has flat or inappropriate facial expressions
19. Does not understand personal space boundaries
20. Avoids or resists physical contact
21. Is not comforted by others during distress
22. Delayed speech and language skills
23. Repeats words or phrases over and over (echolalia)
24. Reverses pronouns (e.g., says “you” instead of “I”)
25. Gives unrelated answers to questions
26. Does not point or respond to pointing
27. Uses few or no gestures (e.g., does not wave goodbye)
28. Talks in a flat, robot-like, or sing-song voice
29. Does not pretend in play (e.g., does not pretend to “feed” a doll)
30. Does not understand jokes, sarcasm, or teasing
31. Lines up toys or other objects
32. Plays with toys the same way every time
33. Likes parts of objects (e.g., wheels)
34. Is very organized
35. Gets upset by minor changes
36. Has obsessive interests
37. Has to follow certain routines
38. Flaps hands, rocks body, or spins self in circles
39. Hyperactivity (very active)
40. Impulsivity (acting without thinking)
41. Short attention span
42. Aggression
43. Causing self injury
44. Temper tantrums
45. Unusual eating and sleeping habits
46. Unusual mood or emotional reactions
47. Lack of fear or more fear than expected
48. Unusual reactions to the way things sound, smell, taste, look, or feel
It’s to make it even more broad and most with Broad Autism Phenotype should have some form of ASD diagnosis, because Autism is a spectrum developmental disorder from very severe to very mild.
The reason why I said this, is because the term broad autism phenotype describes an even wider range of individuals who exhibit problems with personality, language, and social-behavioral characteristics at a level that is considered to be higher than average but lower than is diagnosable with autism.
Even if you slightly had some problems with personality, language, and social-behavioral characteristics from early to late childhood, early to late adolescence and adulthood, I would still consider you to have history of developmental delay, regardless if it is diagnosed or not and also, because the DSM changed all subgroups of Autisms into a spectrum disorder, from very severe to very mild.
20 Sep 2020, 10:07 pm
LisaM1031 wrote:
I think the issue for both ASD and ADHD is not the DSM criteria itself but that it gets misapplied. Like a person may really have only one or two traits and the clinician slaps them with a label anyway.
Can you show that? I am skeptical people are going round wanting an ASD diagnosis for kicks and doctors are just happy to do that. Especially since there are many people here on WP not able to get diagnosis or have a very difficult time to do so.
Where this type of suggestion concerns me is people double-guessing diagnoses and sorting autistics into worthy and unworthy camps.
20 Sep 2020, 10:49 pm
FranzOren wrote:
I am starting to think that criteria for ASD is way too broad.
I think that it is too broad and I am afraid the spectrum is more than just a full-blown disorder, it can also include anyone who are undiagnosed that have traits of ASD.
In reality, being neurotypical means that you are not never diagnosed and never diagnosed until you get diagnosed one way or another.
I think we really should stop calling anyone NT, just because they don’t have diagnosis of ASD or any mental health and developmental disorders for that matter, because we may never know if they have the same or similar issues as us, but were not diagnosed at the time, or they suffered like us, but they were never diagnosed for the rest of their lives
There are also reports or stories that some lose their ASD diagnosis as they get older, just because they got improved, even though some forget that ASD is a developmental disorder ( especially milder forms of ASD ) and a developmental disorder is something you have for the rest of your life.
Even my brother's friend said he was diagnosed with Autism, but he thinks it is stupid, because from his perspective, it never caused him any distress in daily life, but his doctors thought otherwise.
Developmental disorders comprise a group of psychiatric conditions originating in childhood that involve serious impairment in different areas. There are several ways of using this term.
[1]
The most narrow concept is used in the category "Specific Disorders of Psychological Development" in the ICD-10.
[1]
These disorders comprise developmental language disorder, learning disorders, motor disorders, and autism spectrum disorders.
[2]
In broader definitions ADHD is included, and the term used is neurodevelopmental disorders.
[1]
Yet others include antisocial behavior and schizophrenia that begins in childhood and continues through life.
[1]
However, these two latter conditions are not as stable as the other developmental disorders, and there is not the same evidence of a shared genetic liability.
[1]
Developmental disorders are present from early life. Most improve as the child grows older, but some entail impairments that continue throughout life. There is a strong genetic component; more males are afflicted than females.
[1]
This is just an example, but it’s not accurate.
Females should get the same treatments and therapies just like men get.
Should we change the criteria for Autism Spectrum disorder? In order to have diagnosis of ASD you need to have traits of part of ASD for four months, after 12 months of age and if traits are gone after more four months you are developmentally delayed.
In order to qualify for diagnosis of Pervasive Developmental Disorder, symptoms must be present for four months right before the age of one.
Autism can be diagnosed at age through 0-3 years of age, but moderate to milder form of Autism can be diagnosed at the age of 4+
According to Wikipedia a chronic condition is a health condition or disease that is persistent or otherwise long-lasting in its effects or a disease that comes with time. The term chronic is often applied when the course of the disease lasts for more than three months.
Even if symptoms of Autism is gone, you are still considered to have history of developmental delay, because the traits of ASD lasted for more than three months
Symptoms of ASD for four months before the age of one:
1. Not respond to their name by 12 months of age
2. Not point at objects to show interest (point at an airplane flying over) by 14 months
3. Not play “pretend” games (pretend to “feed” a doll) by 18 months
4. Avoid eye contact and want to be alone
5. Have trouble understanding other people’s feelings or talking about their own feelings
6. Have delayed speech and language skills
7. Repeat words or phrases over and over (echolalia)
8. Give unrelated answers to questions
9. Get upset by minor changes
10. Have obsessive interests
11. Flap their hands, rock their body, or spin in circles
12. Have unusual reactions to the way things sound, smell, taste, look, or feel
13. Does not respond to name by 12 months of age
14. Avoids eye-contact
15. Prefers to play alone
16. Does not share interests with others
17. Only interacts to achieve a desired goal
18. Has flat or inappropriate facial expressions
19. Does not understand personal space boundaries
20. Avoids or resists physical contact
21. Is not comforted by others during distress
22. Delayed speech and language skills
23. Repeats words or phrases over and over (echolalia)
24. Reverses pronouns (e.g., says “you” instead of “I”)
25. Gives unrelated answers to questions
26. Does not point or respond to pointing
27. Uses few or no gestures (e.g., does not wave goodbye)
28. Talks in a flat, robot-like, or sing-song voice
29. Does not pretend in play (e.g., does not pretend to “feed” a doll)
30. Does not understand jokes, sarcasm, or teasing
31. Lines up toys or other objects
32. Plays with toys the same way every time
33. Likes parts of objects (e.g., wheels)
34. Is very organized
35. Gets upset by minor changes
36. Has obsessive interests
37. Has to follow certain routines
38. Flaps hands, rocks body, or spins self in circles
39. Hyperactivity (very active)
40. Impulsivity (acting without thinking)
41. Short attention span
42. Aggression
43. Causing self injury
44. Temper tantrums
45. Unusual eating and sleeping habits
46. Unusual mood or emotional reactions
47. Lack of fear or more fear than expected
48. Unusual reactions to the way things sound, smell, taste, look, or feel
It’s to make it even more broad and most with Broad Autism Phenotype should have some form of ASD diagnosis, because Autism is a spectrum developmental disorder from very severe to very mild.
The reason why I said this, is because the term broad autism phenotype describes an even wider range of individuals who exhibit problems with personality, language, and social-behavioral characteristics at a level that is considered to be higher than average but lower than is diagnosable with autism.
Even if you slightly had some problems with personality, language, and social-behavioral characteristics from early to late childhood, early to late adolescence and adulthood, I would still consider you to have history of developmental delay, regardless if it is diagnosed or not and also, because the DSM changed all subgroups of Autisms into a spectrum disorder, from very severe to very mild.
I think that it is too broad and I am afraid the spectrum is more than just a full-blown disorder, it can also include anyone who are undiagnosed that have traits of ASD.
In reality, being neurotypical means that you are not never diagnosed and never diagnosed until you get diagnosed one way or another.
I think we really should stop calling anyone NT, just because they don’t have diagnosis of ASD or any mental health and developmental disorders for that matter, because we may never know if they have the same or similar issues as us, but were not diagnosed at the time, or they suffered like us, but they were never diagnosed for the rest of their lives
There are also reports or stories that some lose their ASD diagnosis as they get older, just because they got improved, even though some forget that ASD is a developmental disorder ( especially milder forms of ASD ) and a developmental disorder is something you have for the rest of your life.
Even my brother's friend said he was diagnosed with Autism, but he thinks it is stupid, because from his perspective, it never caused him any distress in daily life, but his doctors thought otherwise.
Developmental disorders comprise a group of psychiatric conditions originating in childhood that involve serious impairment in different areas. There are several ways of using this term.
[1]
The most narrow concept is used in the category "Specific Disorders of Psychological Development" in the ICD-10.
[1]
These disorders comprise developmental language disorder, learning disorders, motor disorders, and autism spectrum disorders.
[2]
In broader definitions ADHD is included, and the term used is neurodevelopmental disorders.
[1]
Yet others include antisocial behavior and schizophrenia that begins in childhood and continues through life.
[1]
However, these two latter conditions are not as stable as the other developmental disorders, and there is not the same evidence of a shared genetic liability.
[1]
Developmental disorders are present from early life. Most improve as the child grows older, but some entail impairments that continue throughout life. There is a strong genetic component; more males are afflicted than females.
[1]
This is just an example, but it’s not accurate.
Females should get the same treatments and therapies just like men get.
Should we change the criteria for Autism Spectrum disorder? In order to have diagnosis of ASD you need to have traits of part of ASD for four months, after 12 months of age and if traits are gone after more four months you are developmentally delayed.
In order to qualify for diagnosis of Pervasive Developmental Disorder, symptoms must be present for four months right before the age of one.
Autism can be diagnosed at age through 0-3 years of age, but moderate to milder form of Autism can be diagnosed at the age of 4+
According to Wikipedia a chronic condition is a health condition or disease that is persistent or otherwise long-lasting in its effects or a disease that comes with time. The term chronic is often applied when the course of the disease lasts for more than three months.
Even if symptoms of Autism is gone, you are still considered to have history of developmental delay, because the traits of ASD lasted for more than three months
Symptoms of ASD for four months before the age of one:
1. Not respond to their name by 12 months of age
2. Not point at objects to show interest (point at an airplane flying over) by 14 months
3. Not play “pretend” games (pretend to “feed” a doll) by 18 months
4. Avoid eye contact and want to be alone
5. Have trouble understanding other people’s feelings or talking about their own feelings
6. Have delayed speech and language skills
7. Repeat words or phrases over and over (echolalia)
8. Give unrelated answers to questions
9. Get upset by minor changes
10. Have obsessive interests
11. Flap their hands, rock their body, or spin in circles
12. Have unusual reactions to the way things sound, smell, taste, look, or feel
13. Does not respond to name by 12 months of age
14. Avoids eye-contact
15. Prefers to play alone
16. Does not share interests with others
17. Only interacts to achieve a desired goal
18. Has flat or inappropriate facial expressions
19. Does not understand personal space boundaries
20. Avoids or resists physical contact
21. Is not comforted by others during distress
22. Delayed speech and language skills
23. Repeats words or phrases over and over (echolalia)
24. Reverses pronouns (e.g., says “you” instead of “I”)
25. Gives unrelated answers to questions
26. Does not point or respond to pointing
27. Uses few or no gestures (e.g., does not wave goodbye)
28. Talks in a flat, robot-like, or sing-song voice
29. Does not pretend in play (e.g., does not pretend to “feed” a doll)
30. Does not understand jokes, sarcasm, or teasing
31. Lines up toys or other objects
32. Plays with toys the same way every time
33. Likes parts of objects (e.g., wheels)
34. Is very organized
35. Gets upset by minor changes
36. Has obsessive interests
37. Has to follow certain routines
38. Flaps hands, rocks body, or spins self in circles
39. Hyperactivity (very active)
40. Impulsivity (acting without thinking)
41. Short attention span
42. Aggression
43. Causing self injury
44. Temper tantrums
45. Unusual eating and sleeping habits
46. Unusual mood or emotional reactions
47. Lack of fear or more fear than expected
48. Unusual reactions to the way things sound, smell, taste, look, or feel
It’s to make it even more broad and most with Broad Autism Phenotype should have some form of ASD diagnosis, because Autism is a spectrum developmental disorder from very severe to very mild.
The reason why I said this, is because the term broad autism phenotype describes an even wider range of individuals who exhibit problems with personality, language, and social-behavioral characteristics at a level that is considered to be higher than average but lower than is diagnosable with autism.
Even if you slightly had some problems with personality, language, and social-behavioral characteristics from early to late childhood, early to late adolescence and adulthood, I would still consider you to have history of developmental delay, regardless if it is diagnosed or not and also, because the DSM changed all subgroups of Autisms into a spectrum disorder, from very severe to very mild.
There is a lot to unpack here. First, BAP is not a diagnosis, but a research phenotype. You can't be diagnosed with BAP.
What you have not shown is the DSM-5 ASD criteria is too broad. How are you going to determine from those that have been diagnosed who should and should not have had that diagnosis? From what I read, overdiagnosis is not the problem, but there are many, and proportionally more women, that are not getting diagnosed.
I look at your criteria and I wonder how you would apply that to me? I did not get diagnosed until I was 56 years old. There was no autism diagnosis that could be applied to me during my childhood or adolescence. I did have some documentation showing my childhood--school reports and such. I did have some corroboration from my mother on my early years. My wife was able to confirm my behavior and difficulties. But I could not meet the specificity of your criteria, but I did meet the DSM-5.
Here is the thing. If you met me, you probably would not think I was autistic (no one in my 56 years ever suggested it either). But that is just the presentation, the mask. But my autism does affect my life and presents real barriers. I also feel lucky compared to others here that have even greater challenges.
But where do you draw the line to show who is autistic enough to have ASD? I think the DSM-5 does a good job at finding that line. Is it perfect? Well, we will see in DSM-6.
BTW, here are some studies done to see if prevalence changed between DSM-4 and DSM-5:
Comparability of DSM-IV and DSM-5 ASD Research Samples
A Comparison of DSM-IV PDD and DSM-5 ASD Prevalence in an Epidemiologic Sample
How has DSM-5 Affected Autism Diagnosis?
