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Do you self-reference?
Intuitively 50%  50%  [ 17 ]
Consciously for the benefit of others 32%  32%  [ 11 ]
Not at all, though you may use similar words and phrases 18%  18%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 34

olympiadis
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29 Oct 2014, 4:23 pm

btbnnyr wrote:
I think NTs and autistics both give automatic responses like I am fine to questions like how are you.
For tracing back conscious thought processes, people often make up things to rationalize something a certain way, including where certain data came from.


I actually think about it consciously and tell people how I am. Yes I get a lot of strange looks for doing so.

Yes, there is lots of rationalization. I see it most often when things are originated intuitively.
For example if you ask someone why they arrived at their intuitively reached answer then they will often fabricate a semi-rational explanation after the fact. That's rationalization and not really what I called back-tracking steps. It comes in the absence of being able to perceive or remember the actual steps that were used in the process. In the subconscious things are done out of sight in the brain's own language of computation, and so hidden from the conscious.
Rationalized explanations are a combination of incomplete, inconsistent, based on emotion or other imaginary conditionals, sometimes based on false accounts, do not always follow logically (though they may seem emotionally logical), and display other characteristics tied to chronology, or time-reversal.

By the way, any of those characteristics employed in debugging code would fail miserably.
:lol:



btbnnyr
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29 Oct 2014, 4:28 pm

I have read about a lot of people constructing identities for themselves, and they use different ones when interacting with different people.


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olympiadis
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29 Oct 2014, 4:40 pm

btbnnyr wrote:
I have read about a lot of people constructing identities for themselves, and they use different ones when interacting with different people.



I'm pretty sure a lot of psychopaths do this because they have no emotional hang-up about deception.

I think many aspies may do it too, but the deception probably causes a lot of distress internally.



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29 Oct 2014, 4:44 pm

I read it most on the INTJ forum.


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29 Oct 2014, 5:53 pm

olympiadis wrote:
btbnnyr wrote:
I have read about a lot of people constructing identities for themselves, and they use different ones when interacting with different people.



I'm pretty sure a lot of psychopaths do this because they have no emotional hang-up about deception.

I think many aspies may do it too, but the deception probably causes a lot of distress internally.


For me it only causes distress if I am actually faking something, but I have various interests and fit various different identities so I have a lot of things to choose from without having to create any identities I don't actually identify with. So I guess I could identify with varying groups of people do to having varying random interests that the occasional other person is bound to also be intrested in.


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29 Oct 2014, 7:36 pm

olympiadis wrote:
For example if you ask someone why they arrived at their intuitively reached answer then they will often fabricate a semi-rational explanation after the fact. That's rationalization and not really what I called back-tracking steps. It comes in the absence of being able to perceive or remember the actual steps that were used in the process. In the subconscious things are done out of sight in the brain's own language of computation, and so hidden from the conscious.
Rationalized explanations are a combination of incomplete, inconsistent, based on emotion or other imaginary conditionals, sometimes based on false accounts, do not always follow logically (though they may seem emotionally logical), and display other characteristics tied to chronology, or time-reversal.



Hmm, that is interesting. I am often asked to explain my thought process, how I arrive at certain solutions, why I did something, and I am always feeling like I can't quite do it. I always feel as if I am rationalizing with the result being incomplete, inconsistent, perhaps illogical, but that could just be from my difficulties with verbalization.



naturalplastic
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29 Oct 2014, 8:22 pm

This whole thread is extremely ill-concieved.

you're asking us all to be PhD sociologists/psychologists,and to mentally dissect ourselves and then to report back to you according your opaque social science jargon. Several impossible demands on us readers all at once.

You're not going to get what you're looking for going about it this way.



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29 Oct 2014, 10:31 pm

Well, it has me thinking about conscious/unconscious actions, and those actions that are often poorly attributed to the slippery term "intuitive"

I have realized, by examining this thought process that many of the things that I consider myself highly skilled at require a great deal of conscious effort. Drift off into daydream and distraction and disaster strikes, things will fly across the room, or you get lost or fall over.

Over time, from this intense conscious focus some things start to seem intuitive, but much of it is due to repetition and practice. It makes me think of the supposedly Aspie trait of being uncoordinated. I am very coordinated and I am a diagnosed Aspie. But I also know that my coordination is, in part, a result of intense repetitive training in several areas that might have some overlap, but are distinct activities.

Is there a spark of intuition, of inspiration? Certainly, at times. Each event in time/space is unique, even if it is a process that has occurred billions of times.

I can't speak for the software algorithm tangent, fascinating, but far outside my area of interest.



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29 Oct 2014, 10:43 pm

NiceCupOfTea wrote:
I can only think of one person on WP who doesn't refer to themselves as "I" in their posts.

So how this is meant to be a NT thing only, I don't know. I suspect I constantly use the "I" word in my own posts, I reckon <_<.


Funny, get tired of using the term "I" in all these posts. Sometimes just eliminate the use of it. Oftentimes find the flow of idea to written word easier that way.

Free y'self from identity, experience true freedom.



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29 Oct 2014, 10:43 pm

NiceCupOfTea wrote:
I can only think of one person on WP who doesn't refer to themselves as "I" in their posts.

So how this is meant to be a NT thing only, I don't know. I suspect I constantly use the "I" word in my own posts, I reckon <_<.


Funny, get tired of using the term "I" in all these posts. Sometimes just eliminate the use of it. Oftentimes find the flow of idea to written word easier that way.

Free y'self from identity, experience true freedom.



btbnnyr
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29 Oct 2014, 10:50 pm

Does not using a word free a person from something?


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olympiadis
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29 Oct 2014, 10:53 pm

grbiker wrote:
Over time, from this intense conscious focus some things start to seem intuitive, but much of it is due to repetition and practice. It makes me think of the supposedly Aspie trait of being uncoordinated. I am very coordinated and I am a diagnosed Aspie. But I also know that my coordination is, in part, a result of intense repetitive training in several areas that might have some overlap, but are distinct activities.


That is insightful.
Consciously directed repetition will eventually form patterns in the subconscious, like riding a bicycle. Basically you can train yourself so that certain types of things can become intuitive. Athletes strive to reach this point because calculation of movement happens many times quicker in the subconscious.

I also have no trouble conditioning myself so that complex physical movements are handled in the subconscious. Where I have the problem is committing thought processes to the subconscious.
Constructing the identity started happening very early in my life, but it never went into the subconscious and become intuitive.
It's the same way for other types of thought processes as well. It seems to all reside in conscious thought, with very little intuition ever coming into it.
When intuition does come in, it's almost always when observing some real natural process, and never any process that is buried in layers of conceptual descriptions.



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29 Oct 2014, 10:58 pm

btbnnyr wrote:
Does not using a word free a person from something?


Sorry, my attempt at freak-flag waving humor.

Not sure about a word, but extended out, not using a car frees oneself from having to buy gas.



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29 Oct 2014, 11:07 pm

olympiadis wrote:

It's the same way for other types of thought processes as well. It seems to all reside in conscious thought, with very little intuition ever coming into it.
When intuition does come in, it's almost always when observing some real natural process, and never any process that is buried in layers of conceptual descriptions.


That is why I referred to intuition as often ill-attributed and slippery. I think many people use it to describe a result that was surprising, but not necessarily intuitive. Most likely it was a result of unique time/space conditions and consciously directed repetitive memory. Some would like to call it intuitive, to claim some special ability or talent above and beyond those natural and acquired.



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29 Oct 2014, 11:27 pm

Most of my best idears occurred through flashes of insight, which are basically intuitive leaps that took a second, then I spent a lot of time and many conscious thought processes to implement them. The flash part is always verry merry berry enjoyable. Implementation is fun too, as the idears always evolve into a different, unpredicted form during the process.


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30 Oct 2014, 12:29 am

naturalplastic wrote:
This whole thread is extremely ill-concieved.

you're asking us all to be PhD sociologists/psychologists,and to mentally dissect ourselves and then to report back to you according your opaque social science jargon. Several impossible demands on us readers all at once.

You're not going to get what you're looking for going about it this way.



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If you make a better one I will try to learn from it.