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lau
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10 Apr 2007, 7:16 pm

KimJ wrote:

The abortion and eugenics issue is a tough side to the argument against "finding the cause of". I am very much pro-choice, and that specifically means "my choice". When people clamor for prenatal screening for autism, they are not thinking of "early intervention", with speech therapy, sign language and toys. They are intending abortion. Studies show that 90-95% of all Down's Syndrome diagnoses (prenatal) are aborted. I looked it up and found out that women who test postitive for this are shown movies that show how horrible it is (under the guise of genetic counseling?) and are pressured by doctors to abort.
When I was pregnant, we miscalculated the date and I tested postively for Down's Syndrome (or that is, my son did). The doctor's office treated it like an emergency and said I needed a sonogram that very day! I had no idea then, that that's what was going on.

So, this is why I disagree with the "pro-choice" argument. It inflicts heavy prejudice against those who choose to carry to term and thus the resulting child.

I take your points KimJ. I can't say that I can see a way around them either. In the magic "ideal world", there should be sympathy for both the parent who could not face having a child with problems and the parent who was brave enough to take on that challenge.

I am "pro-choice" in the sense that parents should be entitled to ask for and acquire whatever information they ask for about their prospects and they should then be allowed to make their own decisions.

One extreme choice would be to chose to know nothing whatsoever about their offspring until the birth. I respect, but don't understand, this.

I suppose the opposite extreme would be to abort for any trivial reason that took their fancy. I suppose I even have to respect this, though I find it distasteful.

I'm sure that the bulk of parents fall in between, and there are those who recognise their own limits and do not want to bring into the world a child who they do not feel they could give a good life.

Would Stephen Hawking's parents have had him aborted if they had know he would develop motor neuron disease? That's a hard one. The world would have suffered somewhat of a loss, I believe. I wonder what SH's own opinion on the matter is? I suspect he'd be miffed, not to have been born, regardless.

I seem to have finished up arguing totally anti-abortion. Strange, as I think I'm totally pro-abortion.

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RadiationHazard
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10 Apr 2007, 7:18 pm

Regardless, in a combination of ignorance and arrogance, we will see alot of genetic modification and augmentation in the future, of that I'm certain.

What this means? I don't know.

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lau
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10 Apr 2007, 7:26 pm

I don't know either, but it'll be fun. See you there.

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RadiationHazard
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10 Apr 2007, 7:28 pm

Hopefully. I fear the worst thought. It's my nature.

Sedaka
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10 Apr 2007, 7:29 pm

Lau wrote:

I'm sorry Sedaka, but I really find it had to decipher what you're saying.

Twice now you've used "w/e" which is an abbreviation I can't recall ever coming across before (other than as "week ending"), and I couldn't work it out from its context. Ah! Is it "whatever"? That's what www.abbreviations.com suggests, along with "Wound of Entry".

Your comment "oh i just was refferring to the nerdier aspects... like through what physiological mechanisms autism works through" meant nothing to me. I didn't think I was being nerdy? I don't understand what the second half is supposed to be saying. I seems to be yet again suggesting that autism is a disease that acts via neurology to produce symptoms.

Another quote: "i read a lot of people here dont want a cure.... but there are a lot who do" does not seem to be borne out by the votes on this thread. I purposefully restrained myself from titling it in a prejudicial fashion.

That was followed by "it's a personal choice of ethics". Yes. I personally choose my ethics... to frown upon eugenics. There are certainly grey areas involved. I support the right of women to choose to terminate pregnancies at any time. I will not support them being frightened into terminations because... red-haired children don't do so well in business... boys shorter than six foot tall don't get on major football teams... autistic people aren't the same as everyone else... or any spurious scare stories.

I feel all burnt out again.

sorry... w/e= whatever

my "nerdier" comment.... i'm in no way describing autism as a disease... is the biological mechanism of urination a disease? biological research on autism merely attempts to describe what is occuring in the body of autistic people comparitely to non-autistic peopel... it's suscyntally put it as AS vs NT here without suggesting it's a "disease" here and elsewhere...

regardless as to what is borne out on the votes of this single thread.... i have read these different opinions several times and you can't crap on their opinions whatever your personal ones are... i'm sure that generally speaking... people with more severe cases are more prone to wanting a cure than those less effected... and i doubt that even the people who want a cure for autism even like the public message that autism speaks portrays

but to think that autism speaks is the only "cure-seeker" or that it's the only grant out there that uses "find a cure" tatcis for any kind of research is silly. yes they launched a crappy angle on a sales pitch and i sincerely hope that they change it and let this current one die out...

but as the system works... there is some good that can come of it... im sorry that some people cant see that.

the only way to change it is to replace their ignorance with real knowledge.

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ZanneMarie
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10 Apr 2007, 7:30 pm

Sedaka wrote:

ZanneMarie wrote:

Actually, he works on biological research. He's never worked clinical trials. I've never worked on one for clinical trials.

point is... grants are sales pitches... you gotta have an angle...

Which is exactly what I said but you felt the need to argue about and now feel the need with wich to agree.

Sedaka wrote:

but i doubt the autism speaks grants contain any of the negative messages that are expressed in their advertisements to the public.

They contain an agenda and to quote you, duh, you pander to that agenda (angle) when you apply for them.

You do what you want. My money isn't going to them. End of subject.

Sedaka
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10 Apr 2007, 7:40 pm

KimJ wrote:

you make valid points because yes screening can be done before a pregnancy... but often times people are already pregnant.

i think your opinions are great but you can't just deny people information... it's the people who don't know what they're getting into that start sobbing about how they sometimes think about drowning their kids cause it was not what they were expecting.

i'm not trying to tell anyone what to do but everyone deserves the choice.

as for predudice... we all face it with any choice we make... and people have many reasons for making their choices... i'm sure the people who choose to abort their babies face just as much.

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Sedaka
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10 Apr 2007, 7:47 pm

ZanneMarie wrote:

Sedaka wrote:

ZanneMarie wrote:

Actually, he works on biological research. He's never worked clinical trials. I've never worked on one for clinical trials.

point is... grants are sales pitches... you gotta have an angle...

Which is exactly what I said but you felt the need to argue about and now feel the need with wich to agree.

Sedaka wrote:

but i doubt the autism speaks grants contain any of the negative messages that are expressed in their advertisements to the public.

They contain an agenda and to quote you, duh, you pander to that agenda (angle) when you apply for them.

You do what you want. My money isn't going to them. End of subject.

my point is... it's not any different than any other grant... unless you knew it was specifically autism speaks.... they all sound the same; like lawyers..

that's fine... do whatever you want with your money... i'm just trying to get you to acknowledge that the grants they give do contribute to some research that is beneficial and isn't some kind of nazi experimentation which is what it sounds like you think autism speaks is contributing to, specifically (i cannot vouche for EVERY SINGLE LAB).

and it's also one thing to donate money to autism speaks and quite another to take their money. i would never make a personal donation but if i were researching autism, which i plan on doing in the near future, and randomly came across a autism speaks grant that sounded like it would fit (Support) my research... heck yeah i would take their money if they award it to me.

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janicka
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10 Apr 2007, 8:22 pm

RadiationHazard wrote:

I found this picture on the Internet some time ago.

That's "Ceiling Cat", isn't it?

KimJ
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10 Apr 2007, 8:28 pm

Quote:

think your opinions are great but you can't just deny people information... it's the people who don't know what they're getting into that start sobbing about how they sometimes think about drowning their kids cause it was not what they were expecting.

It's not about denying information. It's the pattern I described in the Down Syndrome Screening. This is done when the woman is at the end of the 1st trimester, beginning of the 2nd. Down Syndrome isn't going away, it's being killed off, continually. That means there is an active campaign among health professionals to convince women to abort. This isn't choice, imo. And there is plenty of evidence in today's literature and media to suggest the same thing will happen if they are able to prenatally screen for autism in the near future. Just look at the people who can't get insured with an Asperger's dx. Look at the hysterical language used to describe what a burden autistics are on society.
Funny you bring up Nazis because they did the same thing in regards to handicapped, elderly, "ret*d" people. They initiated this perspective with the merciful euthanasia program.

The similarities between Down's Syndrome and Autism are also cause for alarm. There is a spectrum of functionality with both. People with Down's aren't all "ret*d" and they vary in cognitive and physical abilities. The thing is, you don't know what your child will be like until they are alive and developing. They also have Early Intervention for these kids.
People keep referring to the need or desire to cure "low functioning" autistics, without regard to their choice or actual knowledge if they are truly low functioning. Who will set the arbitrary marker to distinguish low from high? Asperger's from autism (as if there were a difference?)

Sedaka
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10 Apr 2007, 8:48 pm

i agree that i don't like the clock-work-orange approach...

and im truly sorry for insurance situations...

but the part of me that just wants to know WHY i am different... is a separate issue... and to me, scientific research is the only thing that will appease my curiousity...

i really don't know what to do about all these ethical issues... there are a million things i wish people didn't do... but i also see millions of good things that people can do... and that's kind of the side i sit on with scientific research

as for the nazi reference... i was just thinking... it's not like scientiests walk around saying "hail autism speaks" and create whole pathos of epxerimentations to justify their campaign and erradicate autism... from my experience, you tend to have an area that you work in and that entails a certain set of biological tools (types of experimentations that you generally practice)... so within your field of interest, you look around to see what kind of grants support that... and yeah you tweak your pitch some... but if you don't have enough of an informed opinion on the needed direction of research to begin with.... then you shouldn't even be shopping for grants in the first place... that is not really the "idea-generating stage"...

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Sedaka
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10 Apr 2007, 8:59 pm

KimJ wrote:

The similarities between Down's Syndrome and Autism are also cause for alarm. There is a spectrum of functionality with both. People with Down's aren't all "ret*d" and they vary in cognitive and physical abilities. The thing is, you don't know what your child will be like until they are alive and developing. They also have Early Intervention for these kids.
People keep referring to the need or desire to cure "low functioning" autistics, without regard to their choice or actual knowledge if they are truly low functioning. Who will set the arbitrary marker to distinguish low from high? Asperger's from autism (as if there were a difference?)

and this is something i think about too... myself probably having AS... i'm currently attracted to someone who has a close relative with a severe case of autism... so it's kind of heavily on my mind as well (thinking about my future children, i mean)

and whatever i tell myself moment to moment... i can't say for sure what i would do unless presented with the situation... but if that happens i would like to know so that i can make my ethical choice.

coincidently... the area of interest i have for autistic research has to do with defining the developmental period where learning is most affected... which according to some theory, is associated with that stage where the hippocampus is comin online. i hope to gain insight with how this whole developmental timeperiod works so that i can then transfer that knowledge into teaching ideology so that i can improve quality of learning in for autistic children in their school environment. having taught and being taught as a weirdo, myself... i hope to lend some personal insight along with all the empirical data

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lau
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11 Apr 2007, 11:59 am

Sedaka wrote:

... so that i can then transfer that knowledge into teaching ideology ...

Oh wow! Just when I think I've calmed down, and you are making some more sense, you throw that one in.
Your choice of the word "ideology" is so Freudian?
To quote from Wikipedia,

Quote:

Every society has an ideology that forms the basis of the "public opinion" or common sense, a basis that usually remains invisible to most people within the society. This dominant ideology appears as "neutral", holding to assumptions that are largely unchallenged. Meanwhile, all other ideologies that differ from the dominant ideology are seen as radical, no matter what the content of their actual vision may be.

I now see that you truly do want to force autistics into the NT mould.

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Sedaka
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11 Apr 2007, 1:25 pm

Lau wrote:

Sedaka wrote:

... so that i can then transfer that knowledge into teaching ideology ...

Oh wow! Just when I think I've calmed down, and you are making some more sense, you throw that one in.
Your choice of the word "ideology" is so Freudian?
To quote from Wikipedia,

Quote:

I now see that you truly do want to force autistics into the NT mould.

i don't like having words put into my mouth....

i simply used the word "ideology" instead of "pedagogy" because i figured people didn't know what that meant.. pedagogy =the art or science of teaching; education; instructional methods.

your second quote is a total random association and therefore irrelvant to anything i said

i do not want to mould anyone into the NT world and i'm sorry you think i do. on the dontrary... the exact opposite

i want to help people learn! i almost failed school in elementary cause i had learning issues... they almost put me in a slower track... i was lucky and found a way to bypass that and have since been lucky in that i can survive in the "public education classroom"

what is so horrible about wanting to increase an autistic person's capacity to learn? public education in america is scary enough... i want to help develop teaching methods that cater to learning methods that ARE DIFFERENT THAN NT WAYS...

and i think that by studying science and cognitive learning... and how the concious mind works on a developmental/physiological level is a good way to go about gaining knowledge so that i can improve the quality of life for autistic people and their ability to be inquissative and get the most out of life.

period. why is that so terrible?

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11 Apr 2007, 1:34 pm

KimJ wrote:

Totally agree with this point. Aborting us out of existence is a real possibility. Could they even distinguish by genetics if a child was an aspie genius vs. MR autie even if they wanted to? What about half-aspies? What about the point where AS shades into NT? We shouldn't promote genetic testing for autism. It is WRONG on all levels.

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Sedaka
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11 Apr 2007, 1:57 pm

SeriousGirl wrote:

KimJ wrote:

well, if you would like to help demonstrate that a good majority of the autistic population has enough cognitive capacity (to put it crassly) to be worth not aborting....

i think we should start working WITH cognitive science to help prove these feelings of the autistic community... and to improve the public view on autistics.

i think a good way to do this is to boost the scientific PR of some autism research... improve that public/scientific interface for knowledge

if we can do this... we can kind of breed out this stupid "ideology" (to use lau's words) that foundations such as autism speaks supports... if we can introduce new ideologies... then we can get rid of autism speaks... or at least it's terrible public viewpoint... i doubt we'll ever not see any "cure autism" approaches... but we can at least hope to improve their "phrasing and propaganda"

but as it stands... a lot of this scientific research that would be beneficial to enlightening people on autism is being funded through grants like autism speaks, simply becuase there are no other venues

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