NTs Keep Score

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not giving up hope... in fact, i hope i'm almost there ^_^

potential nerd on nerd love... but im still biting my tongue on that one

WOW! I think I can be understood more, and THEN hear THIS garbage! I DO know other people matter. If you are BLACK, JEWISH, CHINESE and treat me right, I'll treat you right. If you are unjustly attacked, I'll fight it. Yet SOME women think ALL men are SCUM! THEY AREN'T! In fact, some WOMEN are scum!

Steve

She must have "Cassandra Affective Disorder" because she doesn't realize that we are the least inclined group to maninuplate anyone. Manipulation requires good NT ToM. It fails the logic test.

i rather think that the potential to manipulate anyone is one of the vilest qualities to find in anyone... and the hardest to forgive

The vast majority of the human race is fundamentally incapable of honesty or genuine warmth. They're only capable of the social pretense of it, so best of luck to you.

Stark reality might be a fire that burns cold, but I'd sooner sit by the fire than spend my life tilting at windmills in a wasteland.

Last edited by Hazelwudi on 14 Apr 2007, 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

You are right - the divide is huge. The above statement is so clueless. If she's any indication, NT's aren't any closer to understanding us than ever.

"Iceberg" is what I become when I'm on sensory overload, usually due to NT's being bothersome.

One of the central features of Asperger's is an inability to see another person's point of view. This is what I mean by not realizing that other people's emotional lives matter. Call it a lack of "theory of mind", call it a lack of empathy, call it mindblindness, call it what you will, it still exists.

You get close to another person way too fast, assuming too much familarity. They shy away. "Hell's bells." you think. "Wtf did I do wrong this time?"

You don't speak up, and eventually everyone grows to ignore you. "Why don't people talk to me?" you wonder.

You are holding forth on your special interest and people start to tune you out, mock you, or make transparent excuses to go elsewhere. "Why don't people listen to me?" you wonder.

If you would stop and put yourself in the other person's shoes, it would become readily apparent why they respond as they do in all of these situations. In the first, you're creeping people out. Stop it. In the second, people assume you're either snowed under by personal problems or are a complete doormat. Stop it. In the third, you're boring the living hell out of them, so stop it. But these signals to stop it go right over your head, because you just can't see things from their point of view, really.

I am willing to believe that you care. Or, that you care at least insofar as anyone truthfully cares... to wit, "The responses I elicit from people are counterproductive to my goals." However, until you learn to see why people do as they do and modify your behavior accordingly to get the responses you want, do you ever expect your lot in life to improve?

SO NOW you are saying ALL AS people? Actually, I have been very good at seeing other people's point of view. I've always tried to do that. SOMETIMES it sways me towards the center, or even to theirs.

When I was *****REALLY***** little, like 3-4, I DO remember getting closer, and there were some girls I liked, but I never got TOO close, etc... I quickly gave up anything like that. BTW I seem to remember things being easier then. MAYBE if I hadn't moved all over, etc... I would have had some good friends. By the age of 5-6, I was much as I am now, and getting friends was harder. I am shy and reserved. Only ONE girl ever slapped me, etc... and it was for what someone ELSE did! BTW NT boys are generally FAR more intrusive. Even THEY aren't as fully bad as you suggest though.

You really assume a LOT! My special interests don't become apparent until someone starts talking about them, etc.... It isn't like I talk about them ALL THE TIME, etc... Take electronics for example! At my current client I spoke about it TWICE! ONCE to show how I HAD to learn some english from books. I used a VERY common circuit name that nearly nobody outside of electronics knows. ONCE to discuss how addressing of memory on computers REALLY works. HECK, I don't even talk much about computer hardware there! Apparently, others generally do things in the same way.

BTW I don't really talk differently here from how I would talk in person. SURE, you may find some posts here where I talk about electronics, computers, etc... They are the MINORITY though.

Steve

Actually, it's all a communication issue. You assume that if you meet a deaf person you don't have to alter the way you speak because they should just know what your lips are saying. That's a pretty ignorant stance when you think about it and it doesn't say too much for the level of intelligence or your empathy when you use it like that in such a situation.

In the case of AS it isn't all on the person with AS or the person who is NT. They have to find a different way to communicate. People with AS operate at different levels all over the spectrum, just like NTs. You completely contradict yourself when you say the person with AS should know what's going on when you've already said:



That being the case, what exactly is it that you wish them to see? The lies? And if the vast majority is incapable of genuine warmth, why single out AS men? Your argument is full of contradiction and emotion.

AS people might have to be told what the person wants to say instead of just picking it up through eyes, body language or hidden context. Blind people and deaf people don't get much of that either, but we've all learned to adjust to them over time. It's a change of attitude that promotes the change in the way we communicate and attitude is changed by using our minds and not our emotions. We learn how they are different and we adapt.

If an AS person is told what's going on, they do respond. They do care about the emotional lives of others. I care very deeply for my husband, my family and my NT friends. Even if my face is passive many times, I am the one who generally comes through for them in a crisis. I'm the one who buys a present that really means something to them.

I would say the biggest difference is that this woman who wrote the book and my husband bothered to use their minds to make sense of what was going on and find a way to communicate. I'm not going to tell you what he had to say about you, but I can tell you it was not very flattering at all. My own feeling is that you're just striking out at others because you've been emotionally hurt yourself and that isn't you putting yourself in someone else's shoes. That's you wanting to strike out anyone to make yourself feel better. It's only saying something about you and no one else. Whatever situation you were in, your post made it clear that you considered it all one sided. The AS person had to mystically know and change while the majority of people were just dishonest and didn't really care anyway. That's a post of self pity. It isn't a post of reciprocation. I, however, won't respond by saying all NTs act that way because I know they don't. Some have risen above their own initial shock and hurt to understand and when they do and they learn a different way, they are reciprocated in kind and we change to meet them. We are vastly different but only the most egotistical and limited think that it's all on the other person and they don't have to do a thing being from the perfect segment as they think they are.

So you mean it's like going up to a foreign person and screaming ALL REET?! in their ear and then start talking really loudly and slowly to them like they're thick?

Which is my point exactly. Instead of honesty and warmth, western society plays ego games that I dont get and dont want to. When people communicate from the heart I get it no problem, and give support as needed. If theyre just looking for someone to bounce their ego needs off of then they can go to hell.

False analogy. Not only are most deaf people otherwise normal but for their hearing loss (thought patterns, body language, etc.), but deafness is not stigmatized as AS is.
Normal people feel sorry for deaf people, or at least are willing to put up a convincing pretense of such emotion. The deafness is not "held against" the person as AS behaviors are held against people. If AS behaviors were similarly tolerated by the general population, there would be no need for this messageboard.

Your analysis is being very efficiently hamstrung by your inability to see the world from the point of view of the ordinary person. Can you begin to fathom how bizarre and off-putting ordinary people in this culture view it, when someone can't seem to look them in the eyes, when someone flaps their hands, when someone tends to startle at noises which are at the far edge of human perception? Can you begin to fathom how narcissistic and rude it is, when someone is perpetually so "off in their own little world" that they fail to respond even to simple questions, or when they have so little awareness of the feelings of others they can scarely open their mouths without pissing off everyone within earshot? Can you begin to fathom how tiresome it is, when you are put in the position of having to constantly explain to an adult that which is completely obvious and self-evident to even a small child? Can you fathom that pure black flame of irritation that grows in the heart, slowly but surely, until the willpower of an Olympian could no longer restrain it from belching forth?

Yes, dealing with NT people tends to tax an AS person's reserves of energy and patience. Did it ever occur to you that AS people who either can't or won't moderate their behaviors tax NT's just as much, if not more? I assure you, they do.

Granted, there are some "AS behaviors" which really cannot be modified, but I have found it the case that the lion's share of them can, at least in the case of mild to moderate AS. You might well have a stare that can practically bore a hole in a granite block. So do I, incidentally. You might be a bit clumsier than normal... so am I, at least gross motor wise. If either of these can be ameliorated I'm damned if I know how to go about it, but that doesn't mean that all hope is lost when it comes to the rest of the behaviors which AS people tend to have trouble with.

For example, consider bathing. Do you have access to a shower? Are you physically capable of taking a shower? Are you mentally capable of remembering what a bar of soap and a bottle of shampoo are for? Are you perceptive enough to realize that your hair is getting greasy, when you run your fingers through it? If the answers to these four questions are all in the affirmative, there's no excuse to not maintain good hygeine.

Conside flapping. Are you physically capable of controlling the motion of your hands (and to a lesser extent, your arms)? If you are, then yes indeed... you can learn to stop doing that. It might take awhile, as it does to fully break any habit, but it can be done.

Consider social confusion. Like many AS people, I have little instinct for social matters... or perhaps it could be said that I have an instinct, but it simply does not align well with the instincts NT's share. That does not mean that I cannot learn social norms, learn to predict the behavior of others, learn to behave appropriately, so that others respond to me in a positive manner. Yes, I can throw out the "rule book" for the nonce and behave just as squirrelly as any of you... quite possibly more so. However, does that path lead anyplace I wish to go? No, it does not... and so, pragmatist that I am, I refrain.



There is no contradiction whatsoever. What they wish to see, ultimately, is behavior in line with social norms. It makes them feel comfortable and at ease. Whether or not it is a "lie" in your case is irrelevant, for it is a "lie" when everyone does this, without exception. But without this lie, society cannot exist.

Let me give you an example.

Suppose you go to McDonald's. You want... hell, I don't know... let's say a Big Mac. There's a lot of people there. Even though they've got a few registers running, the lines are still long. People are hungry. They see the food being made in the back. A couple of the counter girls could stand to be a bit faster about the whole thing... they seem kind of tired and dopey today.

How many customers have the urge to just go behind the counter, grab some food, clout any resistance to their efforts over the head, and eat the food, social norms be damned? I assure you the vast majority of the customers are thinking along these lines, if not all of them. However, this is not socially appropriate behavior, and so they generally refrain from it. They refrain, even though they're hungry, and even though a couple of the girls are slow. You call adherence to social norms "a lie", but society would be completely unable to function without it. This is why the lesser violations of social norms tend to result in painful ostracism or verbal attacks, and the most disruptive violations of social norms tend to result in physical assault upon the violator, imprisonment, or death. Yes, it's that important.



This is, undoubtedly, a good thing. The hell of it is, it seems that a great many on WP are not this way. This is going to sound cold, but some of them are so busy obsessing over themselves and whining about their problems that I don't think they would recognize another person's needs if those needs literally came up and bit them in the ass... they'd look momentarily confused, then go back to thinking of circuit boards or whathaveyou.



Wow, did you ever miss the mark. I'm not sure I'm even capable of self-pity... if I am wronged in some way, I go immediately from "Ouch!" to "This is how I will extract revenge...." Self-pity is completely counterproductive and a waste of both time and energy. Emotionally, I only have four modes really... neutrality, benovelence, anger, and curiosity. I am technically capable of fear, I suppose... but this is extrordinarily rare.

While it is good that you have found a middle ground of translation with your husband, you simply cannot deny that the overwhelming majority of people simply will not bother to do so. Or you can deny it, but then I can deny that my hair is greying long before its time. Both statements would be false.

I was once an idealist, much as yourself. I looked into the world and saw hatred, indifference, murder, torture, rapine, even genocide. I saw all the adroit rationalizations people made to justify such acts... all the prejudice and "isms", as well as the relentless self-interest that makes onlookers declare "It's not my problem." and turn their backs. It disgusted me beyond measure, that people could do such things to one another. Not because such acts are often counterproductive or otherwise a breach in efficiency, but because I truly empathized with those who were wronged in such a way.

My obsessions have changed over the years, but that one overriding obsession has always been with me... humanity. I thought that human nature could be fixed somehow.... that perhaps there was some method by which the human race could truly become what they pretend to be (kindly, caring, etc.) rather than it all too often being the thinnest of veneers over a gulf blacker than Tartarus.

I was a naive fool. An endearing one, perhaps, but a naive fool all the same.

Finally, after years upon years of study, both formal and informal, in both psychology and sociology, the truth dawned on me. One's culture, one's upbringing, the method of rearing never changes the impulse... it only serves to define which people are considered acceptable targets for the impulse. The problem is not in the software... in the "nurture" side of the age-old nature/nurture debate. The problem is in the hardware, and is beyond any mortal ability to repair. Even aspies are not immune to this, as the ones I've known irl have repeatedly shown me. Only the targets differ.

I was left with a head full of facts and observations, standing on a road to nowhere and thinking, "Great, just great. WTF do I do now?!"

Thus was the pragmatist born. I realized that while that learning was entirely useless for the reason I had originally acquired it, it was very useful indeed in navigating the social morass. While I could not obliterate human nature, I could work within it. I could motivate others in the direction I wished them to go. I could induce them to behave in certain ways, by making their behavior a dependent variable to my independent variable. Human nature ceased to be an implacable enemy and became a series of levers, to pull and push for best effect. Combined with a working knowledge of the art of rhetoric (not difficult to acquire, if you've ever made much study of society, sociology, or politics), I discovered I was actually quite good at this lever-pulling.

Self-pity? Nay. Although I failed in my original quest, I have been granted a lifelong pass into the psychological backstage of humanity. Most of it the backstage is in fact an open sewer, that I'll readily admit, but I've more opportunities to satisfy my curiosity than ever before, and an edge in my dealings that the landslide majority of people will never have. They behave as comes natural to them, but do not really know why. I know why, and can manipulate it when I wish to.

For example, I am fully aware that this missive is overly lengthy, and that rather than reading it and honestly considering it, you will scan it mostly looking for things to argue over.

That's quite alright. I enjoy arguing, so have at it.

Last edited by Hazelwudi on 14 Apr 2007, 4:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Points of view are relevant inasfar they say something about the real world, in which people (others and self) are small and temporary elements. For "ordinary persons", on the other hand, points of view are all that exists. Life for them is a game of confirming self and others, and outside of this there is nothing. In other words: get real, and we might play along!

Websters defines ordinary as "of no special quality or interest; commonplace; unexceptional."

Tell us again why its important to understand this viewpoint. Im just not getting it.

It's not a false analogy. Where are you living that you believe Deaf people are respected? In fact, your reference to pity "Normal people feel sorry for deaf people" illustrates that lack of respect perfectly. There are plenty of parallel issues between the Hearing Impaired, Deaf Culture and those on the autism spectrum. Forcing children to have cochlear implants is one, forcing speech on Deaf people, and the plethora of stories of unhelpful professionals that won't use ASL, or speak to be understood (appropriate for lip reading).
These are physiological barriers to effective communication. Which is exactly what ASD does (and by extension what some NTs use against some autistics). You can't read body language, you can't decide what a change in tone or pitch means, you overlook sarcasm, metaphor and hyperbole and hear literal meanings. These are real occurences and they really get in the way of understanding other people.
ZanneMarie has really gotten to a middle ground and she's a lot more understanding than any of us. In fact, I disagree with some of her points, in that she gives NT the benefit of the doubt more than I would.
The rest of your rant reinforces the anger and pity you keep denying. You really just list what you consider unnecessary and unattractive autistic traits and how they can be left behind. It's really an insensitive perspective and if you believe you are on the spectrum, it's self-loathing.

Don't you think most apsies learn how to do this at an early age? That's a rather insulting assumption.



Why do you want to extract revenge? It won't do anything to make any situation better. I feel you are reflecting bitterness combined with scorn, so I think your emotional repertorie is larger than you believe.



It is not pragmatic to believe that close relationships exist without mutual understanding which requires both parties to try and understand each other's POV, or ToM. If the overwhelming majority of people refuse to do so, then it is their loss. Then again, most of us are content to have only a few close relationships. In the end, it may work out to our benefit that the number of NTs who are willing to do the work required to understand aspie ToM are small. The problem which has historically existed is the expectation for only the aspie to modify their thinking and this must change in order to prevent the formation of a negative self schema where we see oursleves as simply defective instead of different. Even though some parents may have the best intentions, they do incalcuable damage to their children's self esteem. Correcting the false NT idea that quacking like a duck makes one a duck is of utmost importance to me.



I also feel like a pragmatist, and I doubt if I ever felt idealistic, but I know that you cannot have genuine relationships by lever pulling as it works only on the most superficial level of human interaction. Yes, you need to learn how to navigate the NT social world in order to function within your particular culture, but there must be a sharing of real selves in personal relationships such as love, friendship and family. And how can we do this without some meeting of the minds between NT and AS? Each of us must give up egocentric and selfish ideas and false expectations. Not one or the orther, but both. Otherwise, you have a relationship that is a sham. Even if it takes an exchange of user manuals, this level of understanding must be achieved by both parties to the relationship. If the NT fails to bridge the gap with effort and true understanding, then they deserve their negative and often ugly emotions.



You are saying to me that you feel hopeless and your efforts are fultile. Perhaps you have a negative self-image from years of being misunderstood and perhaps ridiculed? You have to come to love yourself before others can love you. That's a pretty basic concept and where bridge building must start. If you don't project to others that you are a worthy, kind and lovable person, then unfortunately, their assumptions will always be for you to change rather than mutual change.