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What is the source of depression in people with autism?

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ladyelaine
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13 Jul 2018, 8:22 pm

Chronos wrote:
BeaArthur wrote:
I know we won't be able to answer the question here, but I'd like to know everybody's thoughts and theories.

Personally, I think depression in autistic people is MOSTLY caused by "learned helplessness," similar to Martin Seligmann's depressive dogs. To not be able to get away from a noxious situation, to not be able to get any sympathy for problems, to not be able to communicate both expressively and receptively, could be the stressor similar to a shock in an electrified cage as per the Seligmann theory.

Secondarily, the effect of being blamed, bullied, and tormented, even by close relatives and other important figures in our lives, interferes with personality development so the autistic person can never develop a healthy sense of self, further increasing the number of adverse events.

So these kinds of causes, I suggest, are more prominent as causes of co-morbid depression, than is a biological (genetic) contribution.

The above synopsis yields testable hypotheses that might give more productive mental health treatment to prevent or reduce depression in autistics.

What does anybody think?


I think you are accurate in your assessment. I would like to add social rejection and being misunderstood, undervalued and underestimated to the list. I think there is a tendency for others to the treat people on the spectrum, with the except of those with visible or obvious impairments, poorly in general.

As to why people with visible disabilities and impairments are treated better, most would say it's because the other person better understand the person is disabled, however I have a more sinister theory. I believe that, at least in American culture, those with visible disabilities are more often treated more kindly than those with invisible disabilities, because in our culture, it's considered socially unacceptable to treat those with visible disabilities poorly, and doing so would cause social ridicule, and thus embarrassment. I don't think it has anything to do with empathy. If NTs were as driven by empathy as they claim (in comparison to those on the spectrum), then there would not be instances of injured individuals who are in need of medical assistance being ignored by numerous passerbyers as they die on the street. The passerbyers in these instances often ignore the person even when it's obvious they are in medical need, because a social precedent has been sent to do so by the first person who did not stop, and they conform to the social precedent. Because of that, if one person stops to help, then other people who would have otherwise not have, stop to help. In some areas, those who stop do not help though, they rob, and then others proceed to rob.

Just the other night I passed a man who was sitting leaning up against a wall who could have passed for dead. I stopped and turned around and observed numerous other people pass him. No one stopped to check on him so I did. He was alive. He had fallen asleep in that position with his headphones on. But most people don't stop.


Chronos, your theory about visible disabilities is very spot on. There is man at my church that has brittle bone disease and is confined to a wheel chair. Everyone bends over backwards for this guy. They raised money to get him a new van and a new wheel chair whenever he needed it. My dad was laid off from his job three years ago and nobody would do anything for us. I was hospitalized in a psych ward last year and nobody gave a s**t at all. They just ignored us and gave us dirty looks when I returned to church. Others spread rumors around about me. The wheelchair guy's disability was visible so the church people would look like real buttholes if they didn't do anything for him. Mine and my family's disabilities are invisible so people wouldn't look like buttholes if they didn't help us. I think they are buttholes for not offering any kind of help to us in our times of need, but nevermind what I think.



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13 Jul 2018, 8:44 pm

ladyelaine wrote:
Chronos wrote:
BeaArthur wrote:
I know we won't be able to answer the question here, but I'd like to know everybody's thoughts and theories.

Personally, I think depression in autistic people is MOSTLY caused by "learned helplessness," similar to Martin Seligmann's depressive dogs. To not be able to get away from a noxious situation, to not be able to get any sympathy for problems, to not be able to communicate both expressively and receptively, could be the stressor similar to a shock in an electrified cage as per the Seligmann theory.

Secondarily, the effect of being blamed, bullied, and tormented, even by close relatives and other important figures in our lives, interferes with personality development so the autistic person can never develop a healthy sense of self, further increasing the number of adverse events.

So these kinds of causes, I suggest, are more prominent as causes of co-morbid depression, than is a biological (genetic) contribution.

The above synopsis yields testable hypotheses that might give more productive mental health treatment to prevent or reduce depression in autistics.

What does anybody think?


I think you are accurate in your assessment. I would like to add social rejection and being misunderstood, undervalued and underestimated to the list. I think there is a tendency for others to the treat people on the spectrum, with the except of those with visible or obvious impairments, poorly in general.

As to why people with visible disabilities and impairments are treated better, most would say it's because the other person better understand the person is disabled, however I have a more sinister theory. I believe that, at least in American culture, those with visible disabilities are more often treated more kindly than those with invisible disabilities, because in our culture, it's considered socially unacceptable to treat those with visible disabilities poorly, and doing so would cause social ridicule, and thus embarrassment. I don't think it has anything to do with empathy. If NTs were as driven by empathy as they claim (in comparison to those on the spectrum), then there would not be instances of injured individuals who are in need of medical assistance being ignored by numerous passerbyers as they die on the street. The passerbyers in these instances often ignore the person even when it's obvious they are in medical need, because a social precedent has been sent to do so by the first person who did not stop, and they conform to the social precedent. Because of that, if one person stops to help, then other people who would have otherwise not have, stop to help. In some areas, those who stop do not help though, they rob, and then others proceed to rob.

Just the other night I passed a man who was sitting leaning up against a wall who could have passed for dead. I stopped and turned around and observed numerous other people pass him. No one stopped to check on him so I did. He was alive. He had fallen asleep in that position with his headphones on. But most people don't stop.


Chronos, your theory about visible disabilities is very spot on. There is man at my church that has brittle bone disease and is confined to a wheel chair. Everyone bends over backwards for this guy. They raised money to get him a new van and a new wheel chair whenever he needed it. My dad was laid off from his job three years ago and nobody would do anything for us. I was hospitalized in a psych ward last year and nobody gave a s**t at all. They just ignored us and gave us dirty looks when I returned to church. Others spread rumors around about me. The wheelchair guy's disability was visible so the church people would look like real buttholes if they didn't do anything for him. Mine and my family's disabilities are invisible so people wouldn't look like buttholes if they didn't help us. I think they are buttholes for not offering any kind of help to us in our times of need, but nevermind what I think.


A lot of people do things for show unfortunately.



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13 Jul 2018, 9:08 pm

Chronos wrote:
ladyelaine wrote:
Chronos wrote:
BeaArthur wrote:
I know we won't be able to answer the question here, but I'd like to know everybody's thoughts and theories.

Personally, I think depression in autistic people is MOSTLY caused by "learned helplessness," similar to Martin Seligmann's depressive dogs. To not be able to get away from a noxious situation, to not be able to get any sympathy for problems, to not be able to communicate both expressively and receptively, could be the stressor similar to a shock in an electrified cage as per the Seligmann theory.

Secondarily, the effect of being blamed, bullied, and tormented, even by close relatives and other important figures in our lives, interferes with personality development so the autistic person can never develop a healthy sense of self, further increasing the number of adverse events.

So these kinds of causes, I suggest, are more prominent as causes of co-morbid depression, than is a biological (genetic) contribution.

The above synopsis yields testable hypotheses that might give more productive mental health treatment to prevent or reduce depression in autistics.

What does anybody think?


I think you are accurate in your assessment. I would like to add social rejection and being misunderstood, undervalued and underestimated to the list. I think there is a tendency for others to the treat people on the spectrum, with the except of those with visible or obvious impairments, poorly in general.

As to why people with visible disabilities and impairments are treated better, most would say it's because the other person better understand the person is disabled, however I have a more sinister theory. I believe that, at least in American culture, those with visible disabilities are more often treated more kindly than those with invisible disabilities, because in our culture, it's considered socially unacceptable to treat those with visible disabilities poorly, and doing so would cause social ridicule, and thus embarrassment. I don't think it has anything to do with empathy. If NTs were as driven by empathy as they claim (in comparison to those on the spectrum), then there would not be instances of injured individuals who are in need of medical assistance being ignored by numerous passerbyers as they die on the street. The passerbyers in these instances often ignore the person even when it's obvious they are in medical need, because a social precedent has been sent to do so by the first person who did not stop, and they conform to the social precedent. Because of that, if one person stops to help, then other people who would have otherwise not have, stop to help. In some areas, those who stop do not help though, they rob, and then others proceed to rob.

Just the other night I passed a man who was sitting leaning up against a wall who could have passed for dead. I stopped and turned around and observed numerous other people pass him. No one stopped to check on him so I did. He was alive. He had fallen asleep in that position with his headphones on. But most people don't stop.


Chronos, your theory about visible disabilities is very spot on. There is man at my church that has brittle bone disease and is confined to a wheel chair. Everyone bends over backwards for this guy. They raised money to get him a new van and a new wheel chair whenever he needed it. My dad was laid off from his job three years ago and nobody would do anything for us. I was hospitalized in a psych ward last year and nobody gave a s**t at all. They just ignored us and gave us dirty looks when I returned to church. Others spread rumors around about me. The wheelchair guy's disability was visible so the church people would look like real buttholes if they didn't do anything for him. Mine and my family's disabilities are invisible so people wouldn't look like buttholes if they didn't help us. I think they are buttholes for not offering any kind of help to us in our times of need, but nevermind what I think.


A lot of people do things for show unfortunately.


It sucks that people are that way.



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14 Jul 2018, 1:01 am

BeaArthur wrote:
Well, this conversation has deteriorated nicely. :)
My weak point in terms of psychology is personality development theories, but I think we can state that as a person's sense of identity develops, it's critical whether they view themselves as efficacious and capable of being loved and admired, or on the other hand they view themselves as helpless, unlovable, and unworthy. This is true (I propose) whether the developing child is neurodiverse or neurotypical; whether they make eye contact or don't; whether they have sensory issues or not, etc. So the ideal raising of autistic children, in this view, should stress helping them develop competencies, confidence, and a sense of worth.



I agree with the people who propose working on developing special interests so they become marketable skills. I think what saved my sense of self worth was the fact that I did well in school and that my parents taught me to be independent and have a can-do attitude. The benefits of a decent middle class upbringing without too much micromanagement is that you get kids who are exposed to learning all kinds of things and who trust their own judgment.

I think what you often find among autistics is the sort of person who is very confident in their abilities, but lacks confidence that people would love them or even like them. There is a huge discrepancy between those two things. I would emphasize teaching autistic kids to find ways to figure out how others are feeling, so that they can have experiences of closeness with others. And others don't have to be kids the same age. It helped me a lot in life that I was very interested in learning, so that adults who were teachers or were skilled in some profession took an interest in me. These kinds of 'mentorships' can be hugely beneficial. Also relationships with older people who are patient and tolerant.

It's a very modern idea to collect a bunch of kids born the same year in a classroom and expect them to develop at the same speed. Historically it wasn't so.


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14 Jul 2018, 8:57 am

Chronos wrote:
I think you are accurate in your assessment. I would like to add social rejection and being misunderstood, undervalued and underestimated to the list. I think there is a tendency for others to the treat people on the spectrum, with the except of those with visible or obvious impairments, poorly in general.

As to why people with visible disabilities and impairments are treated better, most would say it's because the other person better understand the person is disabled, however I have a more sinister theory. I believe that, at least in American culture, those with visible disabilities are more often treated more kindly than those with invisible disabilities, because in our culture, it's considered socially unacceptable to treat those with visible disabilities poorly, and doing so would cause social ridicule, and thus embarrassment. I don't think it has anything to do with empathy. If NTs were as driven by empathy as they claim (in comparison to those on the spectrum), then there would not be instances of injured individuals who are in need of medical assistance being ignored by numerous passerbyers as they die on the street. The passerbyers in these instances often ignore the person even when it's obvious they are in medical need, because a social precedent has been sent to do so by the first person who did not stop, and they conform to the social precedent. Because of that, if one person stops to help, then other people who would have otherwise not have, stop to help. In some areas, those who stop do not help though, they rob, and then others proceed to rob.

I have observed the same thing about physical vs. mental/intellectual difficulties - which is easy for me to do, since I have both. Seldom does any service person (let alone mere bystander) notice if I am flustered, depressed, or struggling mentally. But when they see me in my mobility scooter or using a walker, they fall all over themselves trying to open the door, and similar socially approved gestures. Most of the time they get in my way and I tell them not to hold the door, which they often ignore and go on holding it. Some of them are cross that I don't want the door held, failing to appreciate just how very virtuous they are being. I'm usually muttering under my breath "damn Catholic-school upbringing" (although I don't know if it has anything to do with Catholicism, honestly).

And I agree the door-holding has nothing to do with empathy. If it was to do with empathy, rather than social acceptability, they'd listen the first time I tell them "please don't hold the door." Nope. They're primarily concerned with their own personal halo.

A little bit off topic, but I just wanted to validate what you said.


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14 Jul 2018, 9:32 am

underwater wrote:
BeaArthur wrote:
Well, this conversation has deteriorated nicely. :)
My weak point in terms of psychology is personality development theories, but I think we can state that as a person's sense of identity develops, it's critical whether they view themselves as efficacious and capable of being loved and admired, or on the other hand they view themselves as helpless, unlovable, and unworthy. This is true (I propose) whether the developing child is neurodiverse or neurotypical; whether they make eye contact or don't; whether they have sensory issues or not, etc. So the ideal raising of autistic children, in this view, should stress helping them develop competencies, confidence, and a sense of worth.



I agree with the people who propose working on developing special interests so they become marketable skills. I think what saved my sense of self worth was the fact that I did well in school and that my parents taught me to be independent and have a can-do attitude. The benefits of a decent middle class upbringing without too much micromanagement is that you get kids who are exposed to learning all kinds of things and who trust their own judgment.

I think what you often find among autistics is the sort of person who is very confident in their abilities, but lacks confidence that people would love them or even like them. There is a huge discrepancy between those two things. I would emphasize teaching autistic kids to find ways to figure out how others are feeling, so that they can have experiences of closeness with others. And others don't have to be kids the same age. It helped me a lot in life that I was very interested in learning, so that adults who were teachers or were skilled in some profession took an interest in me. These kinds of 'mentorships' can be hugely beneficial. Also relationships with older people who are patient and tolerant.

It's a very modern idea to collect a bunch of kids born the same year in a classroom and expect them to develop at the same speed. Historically it wasn't so.


From my experiences, I think you are on spot on. If you throw bullying into the mix, it is rather easy to see why those on the spectrum would not see themselves has having value in the eyes of others (low self-esteem issues). Over a period of time, self-esteem can become worse if it gets constantly reinforced by the violent actions of others (leading to negative self-esteem and even self-hatred). I have been to the self-hatred stage before in my youth, not a fun place to be as it is a spiral downward without an end in sight. It is hard to recover once you are fully there. Life becomes truly meaningless to try to understand, hate/rage is the only thing you think/feel. With the help of others, it took me years to get back to the low self-esteem stage. Still not ideal, but better than where I was at before.

Another thought on this subject:

When one realizes that they are socially behind their peers and cannot find a way to make up the difference, it can lead to a great deal of stress. How the person deals with the stress is one measure if they will become depressed about it or not.



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14 Jul 2018, 11:40 am

QuantumChemist wrote:
underwater wrote:
BeaArthur wrote:
Well, this conversation has deteriorated nicely. :)
My weak point in terms of psychology is personality development theories, but I think we can state that as a person's sense of identity develops, it's critical whether they view themselves as efficacious and capable of being loved and admired, or on the other hand they view themselves as helpless, unlovable, and unworthy. This is true (I propose) whether the developing child is neurodiverse or neurotypical; whether they make eye contact or don't; whether they have sensory issues or not, etc. So the ideal raising of autistic children, in this view, should stress helping them develop competencies, confidence, and a sense of worth.



I agree with the people who propose working on developing special interests so they become marketable skills. I think what saved my sense of self worth was the fact that I did well in school and that my parents taught me to be independent and have a can-do attitude. The benefits of a decent middle class upbringing without too much micromanagement is that you get kids who are exposed to learning all kinds of things and who trust their own judgment.

I think what you often find among autistics is the sort of person who is very confident in their abilities, but lacks confidence that people would love them or even like them. There is a huge discrepancy between those two things. I would emphasize teaching autistic kids to find ways to figure out how others are feeling, so that they can have experiences of closeness with others. And others don't have to be kids the same age. It helped me a lot in life that I was very interested in learning, so that adults who were teachers or were skilled in some profession took an interest in me. These kinds of 'mentorships' can be hugely beneficial. Also relationships with older people who are patient and tolerant.

It's a very modern idea to collect a bunch of kids born the same year in a classroom and expect them to develop at the same speed. Historically it wasn't so.


From my experiences, I think you are on spot on. If you throw bullying into the mix, it is rather easy to see why those on the spectrum would not see themselves has having value in the eyes of others (low self-esteem issues). Over a period of time, self-esteem can become worse if it gets constantly reinforced by the violent actions of others (leading to negative self-esteem and even self-hatred). I have been to the self-hatred stage before in my youth, not a fun place to be as it is a spiral downward without an end in sight. It is hard to recover once you are fully there. Life becomes truly meaningless to try to understand, hate/rage is the only thing you think/feel. With the help of others, it took me years to get back to the low self-esteem stage. Still not ideal, but better than where I was at before.

Another thought on this subject:

When one realizes that they are socially behind their peers and cannot find a way to make up the difference, it can lead to a great deal of stress. How the person deals with the stress is one measure if they will become depressed about it or not.


You are right about the bullying. It is very hard to feel good about yourself when you are called names, ganged up on, never have anyone to play with, and don't feel wanted. Adults never doing anything about the bullies makes it even worse. By not doing anything about bullying, adults are basically giving kids permission to bully.



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14 Jul 2018, 12:38 pm

I didn't come from a middle class background. More like a Hee Haw rerun. Education was not a priority in my working class family. They didn't want better for me than what they had.



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14 Jul 2018, 12:47 pm

I’ve been thinking about this topic, and I’m not really certain of the answer.

I’ve been through a lot of stuff, so it’s to be expected that I would struggle with depression even without ASD.

As far as things related to ASD, there’s:

Being overstimulated due to sensory issues

Loneliness

Selective mutism as a young person which made it difficult to form friendships

I wasn’t diagnosed until I was 30, so my family wasn’t understanding of my limitations and thought I wasn’t trying hard enough when I was at my max.

Tendency to ruminate. I’m not sure if that’s related to ASD, but a lot of us seem to struggle with this.



Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 14 Jul 2018, 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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14 Jul 2018, 12:49 pm

Also, hyper focusing on a special interest can make it difficult to get stuff done. All I can think about is what I really want to be doing.



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14 Jul 2018, 3:05 pm

Did I mention being devalued? Many people on the spectrum hold a wealth of expertise on certain subjects but are often disregarded.



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14 Jul 2018, 3:26 pm

ladyelaine wrote:
... It is very hard to feel good about yourself when you are called names, ganged up on, never have anyone to play with, and don't feel wanted. Adults never doing anything about the bullies makes it even worse. By not doing anything about bullying, adults are basically giving kids permission to bully.


And those adults are most definitely sending a very loud, very clear message about who they value most - the bullies - and who they consider worth protecting - the bullies.

This continues right into adulthood, happens in the workplace all too often. With management protecting the bullies, comme d'habitude.

No wonder we become depressed.


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15 Jul 2018, 4:57 am

There are many injustices in this world and we have to cope with more than our fair share.

Having a strong sense of justice, fairness and equality can really bring me down because we live in such an imperfect world with many ignorant or corrupt people.

I have to try to come to terms with how these things happen and understand to help lessen the blows.

If I can understand certain issues and situations from a more objective point of view rather than my emotionally fueled subjective view then I somehow manage to live in this world.

Society has changed in my time but still this is not enough.

The only thing I can change is myself, this is my power not anyone else's.

So if I want to find the source and healing factor of my own personal depression then I have to look within. Nobody else is going to change it for me.



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15 Jul 2018, 8:28 am

Wanted to add a thought to Chronos' and others comment on the different reactions to visible, vs. less visible, disability.

I noticed something similar, and my take may be even more sinister - I genuinely believe that part of the reason *some* people tend to fawn on the physically disabled is that - they do not see the disabled person as a threat in any way. They get a sense of superiority, which they may not even consciously recognize. Then there's the virtue signaling aspect, that Bea commented on - people who are damn well going to hold the door for you regardless of your wishes. Some of that, to be fair, is just childhood training that hasn't been re-examined.

But I do notice that an awful lot of what looks like kindness is actually condescension, and it isn't always obvious.

Flip side, I think one of the reasons that *some* people actually seem to go out of their way to mistreat *some* of us on the spectrum is that we DO appear to be a threat. Sometimes in the usual sense of taking their job or competing successfully with them for a promotion. But quite often it's that very sense of fairness that Temeraire refers to, that sense of justice, which translates into a pretty limited tolerance for BS and tap-dancing as a substitute for honesty and decency. And many of us do seem to have turbocharged factory-installed BS detectors, and no problem using them. We can be quite outspoken about these things.

*That* is going to be a threat to anyone whose normal approach to other people is commodified or predatory, because successful intraspecies predation requires deception.

>sigh< I'm supposed to be fixing my breakfast (what, is it broken? Well, some eggs will be, shortly.)


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15 Jul 2018, 10:39 am

Esmerelda Weatherwax wrote:
Wanted to add a thought to Chronos' and others comment on the different reactions to visible, vs. less visible, disability.

I noticed something similar, and my take may be even more sinister - I genuinely believe that part of the reason *some* people tend to fawn on the physically disabled is that - they do not see the disabled person as a threat in any way. They get a sense of superiority, which they may not even consciously recognize. Then there's the virtue signaling aspect, that Bea commented on - people who are damn well going to hold the door for you regardless of your wishes. Some of that, to be fair, is just childhood training that hasn't been re-examined.

But I do notice that an awful lot of what looks like kindness is actually condescension, and it isn't always obvious.

Flip side, I think one of the reasons that *some* people actually seem to go out of their way to mistreat *some* of us on the spectrum is that we DO appear to be a threat. Sometimes in the usual sense of taking their job or competing successfully with them for a promotion. But quite often it's that very sense of fairness that Temeraire refers to, that sense of justice, which translates into a pretty limited tolerance for BS and tap-dancing as a substitute for honesty and decency. And many of us do seem to have turbocharged factory-installed BS detectors, and no problem using them. We can be quite outspoken about these things.

*That* is going to be a threat to anyone whose normal approach to other people is commodified or predatory, because successful intraspecies predation requires deception.

>sigh< I'm supposed to be fixing my breakfast (what, is it broken? Well, some eggs will be, shortly.)


Many people love to feel superior to those that they don't see as a threat. People like any opportunity to boost their egos and look like heroes. A child being taught to open doors for people in wheelchairs is like a child being taught to do word problems one way when in reality not all word problems can be done the same way. You have to actually read the word problem carefully to determine how it should be solved.

I do find a lot of "kindness" to be condescending. Even when I was a kid, I found many of my classmates' attempts at "kindness" very condescending. I was one of the oldest students in my class, but I didn't feel like I was on equal footing with my classmates.

People hate it when we can see through their crap. They can't manipulate us easily, so they crap all over us.



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15 Jul 2018, 11:35 am

I don't disagree at all, Esmeralda.