Neither Aspie Nor NT, but somewhere in between

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Okie dokie, for example, an individual with OCD will put his/her shirt on before his/her pants for he/she thinks something bad will happen if he/she doesn't. An individual with AS will put the shirt on first for that's how it has always been; any deviation from this routine causes discomfort (for no reason at all other than a change of routine). You can apply this example to anything.

I know this for a fact for I've had my OCD and AS competing over the same routine (which is pretty funny), and alternating between the years.

Thanks for that explanation! I think I must have my AS and OCD competing too. Good grief the human brain is a weird thing

I sure hope I can find someone who knows about both OCD and AS to help me.

A lot of the online stuff is very narrow. The DSM has strict criteria right now, and they're finding that it might not be accurate as a result. I noticed the theory that it presents differently in girls seems to be popping up more, which may account for at least part of the gender disparity in terms of frequency of diagnosis.

It may be a ghost effect. It means AS runs in your family but it is not strong enough to warrant you a diagnosis.
Although I recommend a stronger evaluation aside from an online test.

I'm glad there are other folks in the same boat as me.

I found this site after my son was diagnosed as an Aspie to look for some answers. I found I have way too many traits in common not be borderline but realize I don't have my boy's stare or clumsiness.

Like some others on this thread I was regularly asked if I was from another country because people picked up on something different. I married a woman from another country and used to half-joke it was great because my inlaws would mistake my quirks as 'American' and be none the wiser. Strangely enough I've never even been on a real date. I just drank massive amounts in social situations ended up with her after a party.

Shocker of all shockers I have a job analyzing large quantities of detailed data and do 90% of it independently without contact of my co-workers.

The last thing I'd want to do is offend Aspies by claiming rights to the label but I read and reread 'born on a blue day' among other books and had I had a highlighter to flag all the things that were me now or as a child, I'd run out of ink before it ended.

The NT acronym was new to me - I used to just call people f^&*(ing humans when they didn't get me.

I'd probably classify myself as NT enough to get by, Aspie enough to sit for 2 hours with my son classifying marine mammals. Thank god he's not into battery manuals

oh, and the usual stuff a lot of you can relate to

"What's wrong, you never smile" when I'm actually happy
"I've never heard you laugh"

Fights with co-workers when they don't agree to organize systems/data the right way (my way)

I used to repeat my own words by re-mouthing them afterwards like an echo - I think there is a term for this.

deadpan calm in a crisis

self medicating in quantities large enough to kill a horse - apparently I act completely 'normal' when I took certain non-prescription drugs recreationally.

and so on.

Sorry to ramble - this has been decades in the making and i needed to get it out.

thanks

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf5906-0-1260.html

that is my result in there somewhere... I have made a huge effort to learn NT social skills which bumped my score which was originally about 145 to 128.

I would say im in the grey area. I would probably get a diagnosis of PDD-NOS if I went along to get one.

I cant say I feel borderline NT though. I just dont have enough primary empathy to call myself NT. I dont like lacking empathy and if there was one thing I would change about myself it would be this. But it is how I am.

And there is no way I can appear normal, my communication style, choice of topics and mannerisms are just too weird! And when I try and look normal I look even weirder!

I spent the last few years trying to intensively learn social skills but I just feel uncomfortable when I am trying to use the stereotyped NT social rituals so I'm going to construct a Plan B.

Anyway there are a lot of us on the board who fall into the PDD-NOS and I think it is good to have all kinds of aspies...

C

Interesting topic. My scoring is: AS - 93/200, NT - 104/200, AQ is 33. But I don't think that it is "borderline" AS, it looks like the features of my personality. I have no sensory problem and can work in a noisy room and use underground trains, but I'm definetly not extravert and have several special interests not connected with people.

NT is not a type of personality, it is a "spectrum" too. Not every NT is obsessed with socialization.

The wikipedia article on autism discusses the "broader autism phenotype" and the borderline NT/AS individuals may compose this category.

I don't know what I am. Online tests seem to suggest an ASD, but they are merely online tests and appear to be a poor tool for diagnosis. Depending on how I interpret the questions for the Baron Simon Cohen AQ test, I can skew my score to a 28 at the absolute lowest, or as high as a 40. I've taken it multiple times and the last time I took it I got a 37.

I have some very obvious social impairments which have worked against me during my search for employment in my field, I'm not good at recognizing jokes, I'm poor at eye contact(I don't know what constitutes proper eye contact, I'm uncomfortable making it, and I have to remember to make eye contact with others when talking to them. It is not instinctual for me), my voice is shallow in variation(unless I get excited about a certain topic or if I remember that I should try to vary it, but even then it still does not sound right. I recorded my own voice and I was surprised at how flat it was. I always thought I varied it like normal people), I do have very narrow interests and hobbies that I pursue relentlessly(exception: when severely depressed. When not dpressed I can research a topic 16+ hours a day for weeks straight and not get bored), there is likely a very large difference between VIQ and PIQ of perhaps 30 points(judging by achievement test scores from school and the correlation between achievement test scores and IQ scores. I'm mathematically smart.), gestures and similar nonverbal communication never came naturally to me, my gait is very awkward compaired to the norm and I'd like to change that but any other way of walking doesn't feel comfortable, people used to make fun of the way I'd look when running, I never made any long-term friends during grade school even though I tried very hard to do so(I had various pet snakes as my friends), I am easily tricked and deceived by others, very often someone will comment that I look depressed, bored, or sad during times I am not, I can hear things that other family members said they do not hear(eg. a 'ringing in ears' noise that completely disappears when the electric power goes out, high pitched noises from electronics), if I'm around too much noise or too much flashing lights I become very uncomfortable(When I was last in a casino, I had tried to help my friend find someone who could service the slot machine he was at because his card was stuck in it and all of the lights and noises I was around sufficiently distracted me from being able to tell the difference between the people around me, and gave me a very weird feeling that I have trouble describing right now other than uncomfortable. It made me want to scream, but I kept my composure), I'm always scratching even the slightest itch I feel on my skin, I couldn't tie my shoes until 9 years old or balance a bike until 5th grade, my understanding of what is socially appropriate is poor, according to my mother I was reading at age 2(which is weird to me, being that my vocabulary today is probably in the average range), I have a tendacy to interpret conversation literally if it uses idiom or metaphor(unless I've heard the particular idiom/metaphor beforehand and also understand what it means), I very frequently do not read social cues and often don't understand them, I normally look away from people or down when I talk to someone, my rote memory is above the norm, I'm very poor at remembering conversations in person but have a good memory when I read them through text, I'm often getting distracted from conversations by my own thoughts and no matter how hard I try I can't control it and I frequently ask people to repeat what they say, I have a difficult time discerning conversation when there is music playing or other loud noises nearby, I often don't consider the thoughts of others(eg. yesterday my grandmother was driving awkwardly and not able to stay in her traffic lane and I spent a few minutes pondering why this was until I remembered that her eyesight is poor and that she is old), I often fail to make 'white lies' with no intention of causing hurt to someone else only to upset them, I find multitasking to be extremeloy difficult(operating a car with the radio on or while trying to maintain a conversation is somtimes a sufficient enough distraction that I will not notice red lights or other traffic signals and thus proceed to not obey them due to failure to read them), among a number of other AS/HFA traits that have been mentioned in other topics... These traits have always been present even as a small child. My grandmother would often complain that I never talked much. I was placed into special education classes in grade school and I am not fully aware of the reasons why as my grades were always good.

Looking at the DSM-IV criteria for AS, I appear to meet it. Looking at the Gillberg's criteria, I might meet it depending on interpretation of the questions(one of them that I may meet I don't understand the meaning, and whether I meet the criteria seems to depend on that one question). But I'd leave that judgement to a psychologist; I also have no intention of getting diagnosed given the state of medical privacy in this country, although if I find that I still cannot get work in my field or have difficulty finding a girlfriend once I decide I want one again, I may just seek one.

Yet, I have the ability to pathologically lie too. That is definately NOT an autistic trait, but a narcissistic personality disorder trait which completely contradicts much of the literature available on ASDs. Depending on how I interpret the questionaire, at one time I had between 4 and 6 NPD criteria met. Many professionals argue that it is impossible for ASD individuals to lie pathologically, but I've heard anecdotal reports from other individuals of cases contradicting this such as some of the posts of parents on this forum with AS children(which leads me to believe either these cases are misdiagnosis OR perhaps the 'theory of mind' impairment isn't all pervasive to ASDs OR perhaps a poor 'theory of mind' doesn't necessarily mean someone won't be able to decieve others or understand deception. I have also read of PDD-NOS individuals who become very adept at manipulation/deception.).



At the very minimum, I'm definately part of the "broader autism phenotype" referred to, but I may in fact have the disorder and it seems to be the only thing that could explain all of the ASD traits I have. Yet, I also seem to meet criteria for personality disorders that directly contradict what ASDs are... I don't know how to explain this at all. Confusing.

My testing scores put me in between NT and AS, but I do have some of the defining traits, especially interests unusual in both type and intensity.

If are unable to be diagnosed with AS but are still autistic to some extent,that means are not aspie,however-that means might be diagnosed with PDDNOS,if not,are still 'on the spectrum' and have spectrum traits,there is no bad to being on the spectrum and not being aspie.

I think that this might apply to me. I haven't been diagnosed with AS, though I do possess many of the AS traits/symptoms. I always say that I'm almost certain that I have AS. But, I wouldn't go as far as to attempt to "self-diagnose" myself with AS. Nevertheless, whatever condition I have, if it's not Asperger's, it's definitely something on the autism spectrum. Perhaps it might even be PDD-NOS.

My theory on this is that many ASD and PDD-NOS individuals end up diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder instead of Aspergers. People with NPD are said to lack empathy and I think that is an ASD indicator. I also think it is possible that some ASD people can have a better theory of mind than others, just like there are ASD people who have few sensory problems and ASD people who dont have the interests as much.

But that is just another one of my many unproven theories!

I think it technically means we are not Aspie as on the DSM IV, but nonetheless "Aspie" makes a good umbrella term for someone on the spectrum who doesnt have classic autism.

Im undiagnosed and near the grey area. I still call myself an aspie because I would never call myself an NT.

Perhaps someone came up with a cute nickname for PDD-NOS...

Anyway Im not sure I believe in PDD-NOS, it just seems to be a temporary name for something psychologists havent defined yet.

That's no theory; it often happens. I'd surmise the reverse is also true, that those with NPD will sometimes be misdiagnosed with an ASD. I've read a post on an NPD forum where it has indeed happened to someone with NPD.

What I don't understand is why so many claim that the two conditions are mutually exclusive. Nowhere in the DSM-IV does a PDD need to be 'ruled out' in order for someone to be diagnosed with NPD, and nowhere in the DSM-IV or Gillberg's criteria does it even list an inability to lie or difficulty lying or difficulty understanding deception by itself as a diagnostic criterion for Aspergers.

Donna Williams on her blog talks about the existence of books describing individuals with an ASD + NPD and compares them to NTs with NPD, but I am unaware of what these books are titled or how these two categories compare:

http://blog.donnawilliams.net/2007/08/26/when-a-discussion-isnt-a-discussion-and-caring-isnt-caring/




I wonder what those books are titled and I wonder what they describe.



Yes, but then again people with ASDs aren't truly lacking in empathy and can be some of the most caring people. I often wonder if NPDs really lack it too; Sam Vaknin is said to have spread such information around and apparently it is fraudulent.

I've read that those with NPDs and ASDs lack empathy or appear to lack empathy in different ways. Here's part of that article:

http://www.planetpapers.com/Assets/2316.php



Here's an interesting article on empathy, NPD, BPD, and ASDs:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2206036



Perhaps. 'Theory of Mind' deficiency doesn't explain all ASD cases and if some theory of mind tests are made to be a set of pictures instead of written, those with ASDs can perform even better than NTs. Sensory issues doesn't explain everything as there are clearly individuals here on this site with ASDs that don't have major sensory issues. Hans Asperger himself also noticed that not all of his cases had all-encompassing narrow intesrsts, just a large majority of them.

Baron-Simon cohen also put out the extreme systemizing theory of autism, but could such a theory also describe those who only have personality disorders and nothing else?



I wish there were a way to either prove or disprove them.




If you have read about NPA personality theory, there is also an increased tendacy for those with an NP personality type to be diagnosed as having Aspergers syndrome compared to the general population and for those with Aspergers to have an NP personality type, while those with NPD tend to have an NA personality type.

I'm of the NP type.

BUT there is also speculation of the existence of introverted narcissists, also called 'inverted' narcissists or 'mirror' narcissists, and a member of this forum who is diagnosed with Aspergers in fact claims to be one.

While Vaknin is not a trustworthy source of information from what I have read, his article describing this condition is interesting and may in fact be correct(I just don't know if it is true or not):

http://www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/article.php?artID=176

Narcissistic personality disorder is a trait that comes to show up after extremely difficult self-esteem issues and insecurity issues. It's a sort of defense mechanism to counteract such insecurity issues. That being said, as most aspies were bullied as children I would not be surprised that NPD would manifest itself in many more aspies than NTs. NPDs lack a desire of interaction to begin with, so it's also much easier for us to adapt to that situation.