Saw Rain Man

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Rain Man first came out two years before my Aspie son was born. I'd always had an interest in autism for some reason (the manifestations of my learning disability and hearing impairment, perhaps), so was especially interested in seeing it.

My son, although extremely intelligent and much more HFA than Rain Man, also manifests many of the same traits and characteristics. He stims, although he seems to come up with a different one every few months. Some of the stims involve pacing, swaying, humming and other mouth sounds, hand cracking, and pacing while clapping his hands in a certain way. He needs routine and absolutely hates any change at all in routines; he has little tolerance for all the many different types of things that happen to change plans and routines. He also imitates things perfectly, all accents, all sounds, anything. He hears someone talk once, whether IRL or in movies, tv., etc., and can then imitate them perfectly and continue to do so. His visual memory is incredible. He also has perfect pitch, and I do mean perfect. You play a note on an instrument without him looking at what you're playing and he can tell you what it is right away and he's right 100% of the time. He can listen to just a few bars of a song and tell you what key it's in, and he's always right. His music teachers have always been amazed. Although he reads music, he can play the piano by ear, even after only hearing something just once.

And most other AS/ASD I know have many of the same issues or variety of special abilities. That's not to say that they all do, of course, just many of them.

Yeah, but they don't ever show Raymond writing. If you took me on a purely oral level I wouldn't communicate well either (and I can churn out non-communicative phrases, I just don't consider those relevant to oral communication).

You go, Boy! I mean Man!

anbuend,

I was speaking of generalisations with autistic disorder and AS with verbal communication; there's a percentage of the former who appear like the latter, and a percentage of the latter who appear like the former. But generally, HFA adults will have greater difficulties as a whole compared to AS in verbal communication. The rest of the symptoms are probably similar.

No one,

One thing on "HFA" and "LFA", I'm speaking in the clinical sense, IQ >70-80 equates to "HFA", and there is a correlation of greater autistic behavior with a lower IQ score on standardized tests (Wing).

I also have to ask, what did many of you think HFA/autistic disorder manifests as? The "high-functioning" portion of HFA doesn't denote "high-functioning" in relation to living like "normal" people, it means having a greater ability for self-help and communication (whether written or verbal) due to a higher score on standardized IQ tests than those with LFA.

AS is generally the "mildest" form of autism, but some professionals lump HFA and AS together due to an overlap in symptoms, and the treatment is the same (the outcome isn't much different either). People with AS may appear more "normal", but I've seen a few with AS who don't.

O, and to state again: I was diagnosed with HFA, not AS, by Dr. Peter Field at Chermside. He thought I had AS as soon as he saw me, but when we discussed it (a set topic I'm interested in and I can talk; see how Rain Man talks perfectly when he's spouting facts? Take away his echolalia and you have me), he said I had autism, just "high-functioning".

I wouldnt know what to think rainman was, but my view on it is mid functioning, with his high functioning days, basically autism is a spectrum, somebody can seem extremely low functioning then next week you see them, their having a conversation seeming very high functioning. I realized past couple weeks, that functioning levels dont always have to do with their IQs, their self helps skills, they way they talk or how they live, or the amount of stimming that is done.

For instances if you met me, theres days you would think i was severe/low functioning, nonverbal, only signing or using pecs, if verbal doing echolalia, or one worders, stimming like crazy, need assistance with easy tasks like opening a package of pretzels, need to be watched 247, somehow i wander off, still love the feeling of wind when im taking off at full speed lol, yet theres days that i drive and run errands, keep a conversation with you, give somewhat good eye contact, not stim as much, seem very social, show interest, and etc...
I have autism, but saying mid or high or low functioning is a understatement---because it really depends on the situation, the place, the people, how much stimulation there is, how im feeling, and what happened that day or a change in event that might make me seem very off then usual, no sleep, no food, too much interaction...can be anything.

I don't think you really can classify somebody as mid or low or high, it can be based on soooo much.

Thats just my opinion though, so feel free to disagree lol.

Well, I am intelligent ("HFA"), and I learnt to write well with arduous teachings from mother and remedial teacher hours. Rain Man might just be smarter than me, it's just that his cognitive pattern is more fractured, i.e., really good in a few things, really bad in others ("savant"). My verbal ability may be better than his, but his spatial/math ability would be far in excess of mine.

On "functioning", I see autism itself as a fairly stable condition amongst those diagnosed, i.e., the outcome of those diagnosed with HFA is roughly the same for the majority of individuals, the same for AS. Rain Man fits the outcome of HFA, he shows the symptoms; I see how he cannot be anything but HFA.

I fit the outcome and symptoms too, I'm just a little better in some things, a little worst in others than he is (like everyone with autism), but taken as a whole, we're not much different (my mother said the same).

As abuend said, most individuals with autism fall within the extremes, and Rain Man isn't on one extreme (people say he is, but he's not).

tbam,

Give Rain Man "normal" speech (not "normal" social use of it), and you have someone with AS [for the most part]. "HFA" usually need a routine and utilize rituals more than AS, but apart from the verbal impairment, there's not much between the two.

A good depiction of someone with AS is in the documentary "Unlikely Travellers", it's Australian too.

Words to paper don't look the same as images.

Did they even show his spatial ability?

And OK, I kept talking about his speech, but I said earlier that was only part of it. AS people ARE supposed to have decent self help skills and "OVER ALL" cognition. That means that the GENERAL composite IQ doesn't cut it. You could have a spatial IQ of 1000(If that was even possible) and STILL have too low an IQ. That IS in ths DSM!

Just FYI, he doesn't have AS. He has autistic disorder. This is where people are getting confused, autistic disorder is a different disorder than AS, no matter the IQ of the individual; it's just that some with autistic disorder are similar to those with AS (it's hard to tell the difference between the two disorders with these people).

A psychiatrist states in the beginning that he is "high-functioning" [for someone with autistic disorder], and a doctor midway through the movie does too. I can see how his IQ would be above MR if his performance IQ was above his verbal IQ (math, spatial, geometric, etcetera, to reading, spelling, comprehension, etcetera). Above in one and below in the other averages in the middle.

He's obviously an intelligent individual, he has an excellent memory for "rote facts", he just cannot utilize language in a normal social context, plus he has difficulties in putting thoughts to words.

Autistic disorder.

You said



YEAH, I know you said "for the most part". to say:



isn't even saying he is HFA. That is ESPECIALLY true if they, like you, believe that MOST ASD people are very LFA. Still, it sounds like you and I saw a different movie. Did they have a sequel?

Many here, including myself, said he would be MFA. That basically means too "high functioning" for LFA, but NOT high functioning ENOUGH for HFA.

I swear I feel like stalking you, but that's only because you read the same topics as I do. And you always say something that's worth of my attention.

Inadequate self-help skills are usually the case with AS. Washing is as much a self-help skill as walking to the bank and getting money is. Using the phone, cooking a meal, being able converse with government, being able to dress as neat as everybody else...

Curiosity of the environment is usually only taken into consideration when parents or similar people state something that 'doesn't fit at all' into the considered diagnosis.

Such as non-verbal child being interested in events or people (because the stereotype is that they somehow can't/won't/mustn't be interested and, in the usual autistic limits, outgoing). But there are kids who are curious and interested and who are otherwise considered to have classical autism.

But, yes, cognitive delay usually is a total no-go. If there's a cognitive delay, it usually means PDD-NOS or classical. Depending on what country you're in.

That's how it works here at least. Can't guarantee on how it works elsewhere.


Danielismyname: Maths/Arithmetic is a part of the verbal IQ test part, at least in the Wechsler IQ tests. I can't explain why it's like this, but it is.

*picks up where she left off*

Like I said, I haven's seen the movie since it came out (15+ years?) so this will be a general discussion.

If you were to pitch this movie to a studio executive you would say something like "A yuppie has to take care of his long-lost older brother who is autistic and in the process rediscovers his own inner life". In other words, it's about the yuppie, not the autistic. There may be two vehicle parts for two stars (Cruise and Hoffman) but the focus is on what Cruise is feeling, his frustration, his joy, and Hoffman inspires or challenges those feelings with his behaviour. The point of the movie isn't how capable Hoffman ('s character) is of taking care of himself, how smart he is, or anything else about him, except that he is endearing and mysterious: the point is how he affects his brother. Yes? Yuppie redemption.

Ultimately it is a 'high concept' movie with a twist (autism), but it isn't ABOUT autism, it's just the most high profile movie to date to feature an autistic character in a prominent part. So Hoffman's character is constructed using bits and pieces from real autistic individuals but those bits and pieces are selected to highlight CRUISE's character's flaws and needs and ultimate growth. Hence the money bit, to show contrast with the materialistic yuppie, and the meltdown bit when stressed, which drives Cruise's character crazy because he wants everything done yesterday.

Some people might identify with the Hoffman character and some might be repelled by him, but my point is this: he's there because he serves the movie. It's pointless talking about how funcional he is or how similar he is to someone else because he's a composite of other people's ideas (Hoffman, the writer, the director etc).

The character might have any number of feelings and ambitions if he existed in real life, and might be more or less capable or interested in communicating them to other people, but as a character in a Hollywood movie his only purpose in life is to redeem his brother and make him a better person. Therefore it's nothing to do with real life.

2ukenkerl,

Autistic disorder without an Axis-II diagnosis of mental retardation is "HFA" (I can post the quotes, but I'm too lazy to find the article without prompting, mainly because I know I'm right). Some people equate AS to HFA, but this isn't the case (even Professor Attwood, a proponent of lumping them together sees a difference, same with Gillberg).

"MFA" isn't an official term.

Neglect AS and PDD-NOS (atypical Asperger's/autism), the "mild" end of the spectrum; he is "high-functioning" for someone with autistic disorder, which is technically "HFA".

Sora,

Whatever he is good and bad at, he must be over the "LFA" threshold to meet "HFA".

Yes, I know. My comment was meant to be totally unrelated to that.

Because arithmetic = verbal IQ in Wechsler.

Talking of which though, I've seen that film once and didn't like it. Not because of the autistic characters, but because of that Cruise-guy.

I don't know how Raymond would possibly do on an IQ test. Probably a splintered profile?

I'm sure it would be splintered, but he has many intellectual strengths that make him have a "normal" level of intelligence on tests.

O, and 2ukenkerl, "HFA" is a rarer condition than AS, 1 in 2000 or so (LFA is 1 in 500/1000 or so). AS is 1 in 250 or so.

Not that I'm a big fan of IQ tests but... if only an estimated 5% of autistic people score below 70 on the proper IQ tests for autistic people (the same ones that are used to be fair to people from cultures other than the one the test is written for), then how can the percentages work out the way you write them?