Emotion Management - Info from Attwood conference

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Danielismyname
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20 May 2008, 5:41 am

opal wrote:
...antichrist.


That'd be cool.



catspurr
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20 May 2008, 5:58 am

Smelena wrote:
Image

This is Syzygish and me at the conference.

He had a big bag of chocolates that he shared. :D

Helen


Nice smiles! Also big bag of cholocates? I'm jealous.



ouinon
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20 May 2008, 6:10 am

opal wrote:
What I don't find helpful is the principle that Aspies are great until they grow up and get into relationships, at which point they turn into some kind of antichrist. He used this cartoon to illustrate what being married to an Aspie is like.

http://creativitymachine.net/wp-content ... elarge.jpg

Is that supposed to be the experience of the person married to/living with the aspie, or that of the aspie themself? Because it looks like me! That is to say, the "aspie".

I have always tended to be like that, but I used to be able to drop out, leave, try something else for a while, etc, whereas as mother financially dependent on the father of my son I can't so easily.

On the other hand it could describe what the father of my son feels. Now and then I actually say to him that surely he must sometimes regret having left his wife and children, ( 5 years before he met me), after all they were still having sex every week right up until he left her, and he had a nice big house and garden, and more money, because she worked. But apparently he felt oppressed by her, perhaps because she worked and was super-sorted in every way...

I think that it can't possibly have been worse with her, but he insists that he's happier with me. I await the unconscious manoevre of his falling in love with someone like he did to leave his wife ( and which relationship fell through as soon as he left her), but I frequently see attachment to victim drama in him, so perhaps he "likes" having a terrible personal burden to put up with! Co-dependency stuff.

I actually think that it might be fairly true about turning into the anti-christ on settling into a relationship, especially parenthood, with anyone. I was ok if odd ( and depressed etc, but hurting noone) until I became a mother.

:study:



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20 May 2008, 6:28 am

Zonder wrote:
I can see where some of what he says, if taken to an extreme point, could be detrimental - but anything in life, when taken to an extreme, can be detrimental. And I can personally say, having used (but not abused) CBT, I am finding ways to think in gray terms, instead of the extreme, black and white ways that I have mostly thought my entire life. CBT is helping me.

But how do/did you avoid abusing CBT?

To me, and many who get involved in these personal development courses based on CBT it is an addictive pain-relieving promise of possible perfection,... if "do the work". So we do the work, and keep doing the courses, and keep examining our thoughts, and think we will achieve "perfect" inner order and truth and harmony if we keep exchanging "negative" beliefs for "positive" ones. ...

I believe that by definition it is prone to abuse because its very foundation stone is the notion that we can change the way we think, freely, from some privileged position of detachment or security or power, whereas this is an illusion.

As a tendency to black and white thinking is an AS thing, then isn't it possible that for unsupported aspie adults the tools are dangerous, like alcohol. Irresistible, with its apparent logic and system, neat processes and tidiness like a massive OCD clear-out of the mental cupboard? !

Aspies "take things to extremes", that's one of our issues/weaknesses, as is being easily influenced by others, permeable, etc, and so something which loosens up our belief system even more is maybe not ideal.

I have nothing against Attwood's recommmending exercise/martial arts, healthy diet, relaxation aids, etc. But the CBT is powerful stuff that I, as an aspie, found particularly poisonous.

:study:



Last edited by ouinon on 20 May 2008, 6:39 am, edited 3 times in total.

Belfast
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20 May 2008, 6:34 am

ouinon wrote:
Belfast wrote:
CBT conflicts with many of my basic beliefs (not just the problematic ones)...

I am interested/curious; in what way does it do that? What beliefs does it conflict with?

I know that I feel that way. CBT does seem, when taken to its logical conclusion, to have profound philosophical/spiritual implications, which I think I am in deep disagreement with. But would love to know what you mean more exactly.

Grossly paraphrasing CBT/RET/etc.: thoughts lead to emotions which lead to sensations (physical states/perceptions). I see it the other way 'round, causality-wise. Notions of "willpower" & "yer own bootstraps" vs. my belief in interdependence & symbiosis.

Just because it irks me doesn't mean I'd knock it for those who can benefit from it. Intellectually, so long as no one's trying to press it upon me, I can peruse the literature on subject-I even bought (for too much money, since it's hardcover "textbook")-'cause I was to curious to pass it up-"CBT for Adults with Asperger Syndrome" by Valerie Gaus. It was so-so.
Zonder wrote:
I've reread the notes, and what he says and how he presents it (as far as the notes go) indicates that the sessions concentrated on helping children. Perhaps if he had been specifically gearing towards adults, the tone and the suggestions might have been different, and seemingly more relevant, for an adult.

Good point-as an adult I get fed up in general with focus on managing/shaping youngsters since I'm not a kid nor will I be having any. Wish any/all researchers/clinicians/writers were more familiar with the adult AS experience, presentation, and differences.


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Zonder
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20 May 2008, 6:37 am

opal wrote:
Hi zonder,
If you are referring to me, I don't have a problem with CBT on principle. I actually have read some of Attwoods stuff and found it helpful. I have been to a couple of his kid-focused conferences and found them helpful. What I don't find helpful is the principle that Aspies are great until they grow up and get into relationships, at which point they turn into some kind of antichrist.

He used this cartoon to illustrate what being married to an Aspie is like.


http://creativitymachine.net/wp-content ... elarge.jpg

I found this attitude exceedingly unhelpful.


Hello opal,

Wasn't referring to you or anyone else specifically, more of a reference to an undertone in the thread.

That cartoon can definitely be taken as insensitive . . . or realistic, depending on one's perspective and personal experience, and also the context of how it was presented. If someone with an ASD does not have "emotional tools," relationships can be (not always are, but can be) difficult.

The experience of my family is more on the realistic side. My father and his brothers (one an identical twin) all had ASD traits, and none of them were successful in their relationships. The oldest brother was "not a nice man" and "never told me that he loved me" according to my cousins. My dad's twin married, adopted a son, and then ran off with one of his 15-year-old students and was sent to jail for statutory rape. He later married again and constantly told his three biological children that they were stupid and ugly. My dad tried to be a perfect Christian but evidently had relationships with men and after he died I found out that he had HIV. Not one of them could talk about themselves or their feelings, or find ways to cope with the emotional uncertainty that they experienced. I believe that when they got married and had children, their lack of emotional understanding overwhelmed them and they lashed out or did risky and stupid things to relieve the emotional stress. They seemed to have no ability to deal with the emotional needs of their spouses, children, or themselves.

Only one of my three male cousins has had a successful marriage and I have avoided relationships. So I look at that cartoon and it saddens me but in my experience it hits very close to home. I'm not saying that everyone with AS is doomed to be a failure at relationships, but when you have few to no coping mechanisms, unfortunately the failure can happen. I'm so happy that there are people out there, like Dr. Attwood, who are developing and offering things to help others and myself to cope.

Z



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20 May 2008, 6:58 am

Belfast wrote:
Grossly paraphrasing CBT/RET etc : Thoughts lead to emotions which lead to sensations (physical states/perceptions).

I see it the other way 'round, causality-wise.

Notions of "willpower" & "yer own bootstraps" vs. my belief in interdependence & symbiosis.

Yes, that's the big problem I have with it. And it gets bigger the more I think about it.

I've just remembered my father disagreeing with me about exactly this when I was "in " the programme, and totally excited about the CBT line of causality. I thought that he was so confused. I thought that he was so blind, not to get it. :oops: CBT seemed so obvious, so irrefutable, then.

Now I realise that the "high"/increased confidence, feeling of power/control, was the result of believing in that ( spurious) line of causality, and nothing to do with the beliefs I was exchanging etc. And that it was bound to crash as reality proved the belief wrong over and over again.

I totally agree re "interdependence and symbiosis".

:study:



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20 May 2008, 7:21 am

ouinon wrote:
Now I realise that the "high"/increased confidence, feeling of power/control, was the result of believing in that ( spurious) line of causality, and nothing to do with the beliefs I was exchanging etc. And that it was bound to crash as reality proved the belief wrong over and over again.

I totally agree re "interdependence and symbiosis".

"Line of causality" dovetails neatly with previous thread of yours on "locus of control"-not the simplistic version which some think that implies (either it's all my fault or all their fault)-but the complex & subtle interactions (no easy task to differentiate & measure) of phenomena.
Commented on Locus of Control thread (but am reluctant to stray off stated topic) so am resisting urge to quote it here...
ouinon wrote:
I believe that by definition it is prone to abuse because its very foundation stone is the notion that we can change the way we think, freely, from some privileged position of detachment or security or power, whereas this is an illusion.

Agree there-and no, that doesn't mean I'm saying all attempts/efforts at self-control or modification are futile. Not saying that for your edification, but in case others want to read wrongly into my assertions. Individuals are acted upon by motivators that are weighted/prioritized differently by each person: some folks need "Z" belief in order to function, others don't find "Z" to be compelling imperative/reason/catalyst.


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20 May 2008, 10:28 am

ouinon wrote:
Zonder wrote:
I can see where some of what he says, if taken to an extreme point, could be detrimental - but anything in life, when taken to an extreme, can be detrimental. And I can personally say, having used (but not abused) CBT, I am finding ways to think in gray terms, instead of the extreme, black and white ways that I have mostly thought my entire life. CBT is helping me.

But how do/did you avoid abusing CBT?

To me, and many who get involved in these personal development courses based on CBT it is an addictive pain-relieving promise of possible perfection,... if "do the work". So we do the work, and keep doing the courses, and keep examining our thoughts, and think we will achieve "perfect" inner order and truth and harmony if we keep exchanging "negative" beliefs for "positive" ones. ...

I believe that by definition it is prone to abuse because its very foundation stone is the notion that we can change the way we think, freely, from some privileged position of detachment or security or power, whereas this is an illusion.

As a tendency to black and white thinking is an AS thing, then isn't it possible that for unsupported aspie adults the tools are dangerous, like alcohol. Irresistible, with its apparent logic and system, neat processes and tidiness like a massive OCD clear-out of the mental cupboard? !

Aspies "take things to extremes", that's one of our issues/weaknesses, as is being easily influenced by others, permeable, etc, and so something which loosens up our belief system even more is maybe not ideal.

I have nothing against Attwood's recommmending exercise/martial arts, healthy diet, relaxation aids, etc. But the CBT is powerful stuff that I, as an aspie, found particularly poisonous.

:study:


I agree that CBT should probably come with a warning label if it is part of a packaged program. I experienced it differently, not in the "perfectionist" way it was presented to you (and I'm sorry to hear what you went through). My psychotherapist uses it as a tool, but not one that we've even spent that much time on. I've learned to do two things with CBT: 1. catch myself when I am telling myself negative things about me and 2. recognize that I have a tendency to think in black and white extremes. I was never encouraged to replace "I'm ugly" with "I'm gorgeous" or "I'm stupid" with "I'm brilliant." I use it more to soften the extremes of my thinking and to give myself more than the two opposite choices that naturally occur to me. Its more of a recognition and then evaluation for truth, than "I can fix it if I only tell myself I can do anything."

Z



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20 May 2008, 11:56 am

I REALLY DON'T LIKE LABELS, BUT . . . . .
fOR DISCUSSION SAKE, I AM AN NT. I HAVE LOVED MANY ASPIE TYPES IN MY LIFE. I WOULDN'T WANT THEM TO not BE ASPIE. OR TURN THEM INTO AN NT. It would be like trying to cure a gay person to be straight. silly, mean, and impossible. You are what you are, LOVE IT. Why do Aspies think we Nt's want them to be like us? What for? Makes no sense. I think many Aspies on this forum misread NT's intentions of acceptance just the way they are aspie and get angry at us. They are reading us incorrectly. Oh, well. I can live with it. I still love 'em.



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20 May 2008, 12:01 pm

As to the ...belief(I am a bad person that know one likes) ---> thoughts(The person i am talking to does not seem to like me)-------> physical sensations(racing heart,confused thinking,sweaty palms,irregualr breathing)----->actions(run away,run away)

I think this process is different for many with AS. For one thing, it doesn't take into account sensory overload which leads to physical sensations------> Thoughts, (I am scared) belief (the world is a dangerous place). My "false beliefs" are triggered by my hyper sensitivities and past experience trying to communicate with people and life experience teaching me that my naivety and literalism can get me in trouble. Those are not imaginary dangers.

It doesn't take into account that many with AS have difficulty reading nonverbal communication or have auditory processing disorder. My belief system about not understanding a lot of human communication(their nonverbal communication and poor use of verbal language) leads to misunderstandings happens to be a reality, not a flawed perception based on some psychological trauma from my childhood. That doesn't mean that I don't have some false beliefs that RET was helpful with, so I'm not completely throughing out it's helpfulness in some ways but I think it would only be effective with someoe who understand the realitites of AS cognition and senses and co-morbids.


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20 May 2008, 1:09 pm

Not a Danish cartoon topic

I just saw this cartoon, and it could have referred to anyone or anything. Very ambiguous, nebulous, generic, whatever. Maybe I missed something. :? (':shrug:')


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20 May 2008, 5:56 pm

http://www.faaas.org/doc.php?40

This is a link to the Cassandra Syndrome.

I have read many comments in the parent's forum and observed it in real life. I did not know it had a title but it is very real.

I suspect that when aspergers has not been identified or dealt with by as least one partner, the relationship teeters towards separation. Both partners are confused. When aspergers is recognised as a contributing factor and adjustments made, the marriage can flourish.


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I think there must be some chronic learning disability that is so prevalent among NT's that it goes unnoticed by the "experts". Krex


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20 May 2008, 7:20 pm

While I found interesting, I am on the autism spectrum myself and could say I also have all these symptoms and the symptoms seem like what most would say is SAD, mild depression and a lot of middle aged adults tend to have these symptoms, is there really a need for another condition!

I am open minded on this, as know how hard it can be, grow up around parents who showed me no affection, etc, etc.. and do know how hard it is for people with partners, children on the autism spectrum. But like everyone else when people are having a hard time, are they not just depressed.. do we really need another name and condition, its hard enough being on the autism spectrum, without having the guilt of giving our partners some other condition!


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20 May 2008, 8:10 pm

The information from the conference was for children. The audience comprised teachers and parents of children with Asperger's.

There were some adults with Asperger's who attended. I sat next to a lady who was 44 and had just been diagnosed with Asperger's. She told me she had come to the conference to learn more about Asperger's.

The conference was divided into 2 sections: The Social Curriculum, and Emotion Management.

With the Social Curriculum, Tony Attwood stated clearly that teaching social skills is not about turning an Aspie into a NT, or creating a homogonous personality. Teaching social skills was about teaching children with Asperger's to read facial expressions and body language, and learn how to decipher non-literal language.

Tony Attwood stated it takes 10 years to teach facial expressions. My sons use a computer program at school to learn facial expressions.

The reason to teach social skills is to reduce the anxiety that comes with confusion in social situations. Also, social skills are required in the workforce.

A couple of books that Tony Attwood mentioned for adults were written by authors with Asperger's/HFA. They were:
'Unwritten Rules of Social Relationships' by Dr Temle Grandin and Sean Burron
'The Asperger Social Guide' by Genevieve Edmonds

I have only posted a very small segment of what was discussed in the conference. I will post it on my website.

I am taking a break from WrongPlanet for a few months to work on my website.

Helen



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21 May 2008, 12:54 am

krex wrote:
As to the ...belief(I am a bad person that know one likes) ---> thoughts(The person i am talking to does not seem to like me)-------> physical sensations(racing heart,confused thinking,sweaty palms,irregualr breathing)----->actions(run away,run away)

I think this process is different for many with AS. For one thing, it doesn't take into account sensory overload which leads to physical sensations------> Thoughts, (I am scared) belief (the world is a dangerous place). My "false beliefs" are triggered by my hyper sensitivities and past experience trying to communicate with people and life experience teaching me that my naivety and literalism can get me in trouble. Those are not imaginary dangers.

It doesn't take into account that many with AS have difficulty reading nonverbal communication or have auditory processing disorder. My belief system about not understanding a lot of human communication(their nonverbal communication and poor use of verbal language) leads to misunderstandings happens to be a reality, not a flawed perception based on some psychological trauma from my childhood. That doesn't mean that I don't have some false beliefs that RET was helpful with, so I'm not completely throughing out it's helpfulness in some ways but I think it would only be effective with someoe who understand the realitites of AS cognition and senses and co-morbids.



NT'S HAVE JUST AS MUCH TROUBLE AS ASPIES, TRUST ME. THEY DO. THEY ARE HUMAN'S TOO. I CALL MY SENSORY OVERLOAD, BS INTOLERANCE.