Social Skills Training for Adults

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I'm usually able to hide it, but sometimes I still need to do things like get food or whatever, and I live in a house with seven other people, so it's hard to get to the kitchen without someone asking me a question sometimes.

I remember this past Christmas I was having a really bad verbal shutdown and immediately as I came out of my room my sister- who was making tags that said they were from various fictional characters asked me which character the next one should be. So I grabbed a "Wall-E"DVD and pointed to it, so she asked "You mean it should be from "DVD?" and all I wanted to do was refill my water bottle and get away from all the noisy people. Christmas was pretty awful all around, though. I was constantly losing visual and auditory processing entirely and having 1-3 total shutdowns every day from all the extreme noise everyone was making.

I hope next week's appointment is significantly less stressful.

This happened to me at work a week and a half ago. It was horrible. Like you said - I can normally run and hide it. I have not been back to work since.

I may not experience this as badly but I do know that helpless feeling when you see and feel yourself teetering on that edge and there is nothing you can do to rein it in and it all crashes. At times like this I silently thank my ADD brain because it is able to filter out the distractions and hyper focus on something it finds pleasant. I used to have to commute in rush hour traffic on a major interstate and I can honestly say, I did so in a near trancelike state - sometimes so deep I'm not sure how I got from downtown to the city limit. I have no innate sense of time as is but times like this are like lost time for me - like alien abduction, but it was only a few minutes not an hour and a half kind of lost time. I can only imagine what would happen if my sound sensitivities got the better of me.

I am amazed that now - afterwards - you are able to articulate it so clearly and vividly. I cannot even begin to imagine how incredibly useful, helpful and educational that ability is and will be in the future. Doctors in general have this vague sense of what is going on in a shutdown but with you able to describe it so clearly - it can bring a world of understanding.

I feel for your pain but I hope the thought that some good could possible come from this helps return your sense of power. *internet hugs*

Fascinating... I felt so alone as it was happening but of course it happens to all of us. I frocking hate ASD today.

The Doctor emailed me RE next week's appointment. I think it will be world's better. I cannot imagine the circumstances lining up against me like this again....

I am feeling strong today (thanks). I remember as it was happening that I was very, very aware and made a conscious effort to put it in words immediately after. I don't know if doctors and/or parents will find this useful or not. I cannot imagine how it might be used at this time... But I do have hope that it is helpful.

QUOTE: "I cannot imagine how this might be useful. . ."

As a parent, I find this useful. It vivifies what my son goes through when people talk to him and he cannot reply. It helps legitimatize his reaction when I talk and he strikes out in fury. It helps me justify my own hatred of the pity he receives. It helps reinforce the work arounds we do--substituting writing for speech at such times. It encourages me to find a path for us. It makes me feel we are not alone. It gives me a useful text to share with his social-skills drama coach.Thank you.

Thank you for sharing your experiences, I personally find great meaning and understanding in your words and I am both realieved and grateful than you are willing to share. Thank you.

I learned a lot about ASD from this thread, and a lot about how it looks in real life. Things like language loss, Sensory and overload issues, meltdowns and more. Things that I deal with, and have been dealing with fo my whole life without truly knowing what they were or what caused them. Because of your gift of documenting your experiences I have a reference point in order to make sence of my DX.

So again, thank you.

Thank you Ha and Vash for you feedback. I shall continue to blog. Something useful may come from all of this after all.

Lots to catch up on since last post. Let's see.....

On the book front, I signed a contract with Future Horizons to be included in Temple Grandin's next book. I am waiting for the contract to come back fully executed and hear next steps.

I have jumped into another advocacy issue that called my name. Namely I have offered to advocate for Derek Hoares little girl Ayn. I will post more on that as it progresses and I need help. Right now am just feeling the waters. They are sad waters...

Social Skills sessions have begun again. He had some interesting words on the white board when I came in. He told me that socializing at parties/events typically consists of a

Greeting, ---------> Be interested
Light Talk Language (small talk) ---------> Be interested
the MEAT,
the Exit

I argued with him about the language he used (Be interested) to present this to me. How am I supposed to come up with that? I argued with him about the situational aspect of all of this. I told him that I need him to come up with something that is between his "NT demands" (his wish for me) and being rude (what I tend to do when the environment is too busy or I am bored) There has to be in between scripts that I can use. I cannot ever achieve a feeling of "interest" towards a stranger at a party. That would be NT and is not in my neurology. What is just below that? Or how about if we use the lanaguage FAKE or PRETEND rather than BE? He thinks I am being argumentitive for the sake of argument. He might be right. I just let it flow. I felt pretty good actually during the session so was just being me.

At one point we broke into a little game with cards. He had new ones that were green and orange. The orange cards were excuse cards and the green ones were accept (I think) ones. This game and its purpose were confusing to me. He set up the scenario that he and I were causual accquaitances and that he was interested in getting to know me. I interupted then to ask if he was interested in me sexually or other. He said other. "Oh really?" "So you are gay then?" I asked. He did not understand and I informed him that if he was a guy and approaching a girl to get to know her better and it wasn't sexual then he was gay. All guys are ultimately interested in that. He seemed to get angry with me at that and disagreed. Really? I have many, many platonic relationships with guys but they do not happen withi the guy approaching me to ask me to go for coffee or something so that he can get to know me better. If that happens, it is 100% of the time the case that he wants to pursue a different sort of relationship. Okay... So he insists this is not the case. So he asks me if I want to go get something to drink.... I stop the game again and ask him for the specific agenda of this meeting. He stutters out some sort of weak agenda. I told him I don't do that. If he wants to get to know me, then we'd have to have an agenda for this meeting. My time is too important. He then informs me that he felt rejected and that I might expect some sort of "saving face" language from the person who had just been rejected by me. I argued with him that the dude should not feel rejected. I just don't do that sort of thing. He told me that if he was a succesful senior PM at Intel with lots of self confidence that he may not feel rejected either. I think he was trying to make me feel guilt. I don't do guilt. I don't own that other person's feelings in this case. I did not ask for this interaction. I was not rude. I am not going to be deliberately rude to people who are junior to me and if someone wants to seek me out as a mentor than of COURSE I will make the time. This situation was some random guy whose only agenda was to get to know me.... Uh... Not just NO but f*k NO. That doesn't remotely interest me.

So there you have it... maybe I am pyschopath afterall... Or maybe I am just busy.

would be nice to have more social skills courses in Toronto, Canada

Thanks for keeping the thread alive. It means a lot to me and my son.

How about FAKE!

The well-honed African-American conversational craft of "stoop and shuffle" before The Man while protecting the African American body and soul from unreasonable demands to "be interested" and not be "uppity" comes to my mind.

Cool status this week.... First the non-session stuff.

I have been having some back and forth with Michelle Winner. She is the person who creates all the content that my PsyD uses to teach me. I have expressed my concern about her material not really working with me and have communicated to her that I am an ESC per her profile. She wants to see me to believe it. LOL! So she and I will be meeting in Tacoma on the 19th and perhaps she will be able to give me some insight as to where to go or what to do next. I am VERY curious to see if my guy is missing something or if her text is or if my brain is. This will be FUN!

Session was yesterday and it is almost a distant memory right now. I have so much going on with work and guitar and football that this sort of fell out of my worry box (so to speak) That said, it was overall a decent session. I felt numb but good going in. We started talking about social skills stuff and the NET of the conversation was that he was repeating to me stuff that we had been over. Still he offered that I should do the following....

1. Understand my tolerance for small talk in social situations and plan for that time - 5 min so that I don't blow.
2. Try to interface with spouses of my friends to get real practice in

I asked him if he was honestly suggesting that me building up a tolerance would somehow be helpful? He thought it actually might be if I could get some actual practice in. Meh... It felt to me like he had run out of tools and that the only thing we had left were the tools that we had discussed time and again so now it was up to me to go out and use them. He said he had not run out of tools and so he launched again into a practice small talk scenario. He coached me through it to give me scripts.

This time he broke it down even further and slower and gave me a lot of support. In this scenario he was the wife of my boss's boss. He told me to ask her how long she and Jeff (my boss's boss) have known each other. I asked the question. He answered then he told me to ask another question that is related and he prompted me to ask how they met. I did. He answered that they had met in college and she (he) was swept of her feet right away. I made a face and sighed. He then asked me what other question might be good to ask. He did not give it to me this time. I asked what she did for a living. He told me that was a great question and then he made up the senario that he (she) was a bank teller. He then added that he (she) did not really like the job very much. I interrupted him there to say that the conversation was over now and that I was done with it. He walked me through an exit strategy and we were done. He told me that this was a perfectly find way to break the ice at a party. He said that he would store good feelings about me after that exchange because I was willing to step into his shoes.... (WTF does this mean Idk?)

I connected the dots a little then as I realized that he had stored good thoughts about me because I asked questions only. I remember when we first started this thread how many of you said to just ask questions and I realized now (finally) what that was about. I made the comment that he did not really care at all about me. He only cared that I asked about him. He confirmed that is sadly how it typically works. "I see" was my reply as I thought about that. (no like)

I asked exactly what does it mean to "store good feelings". You see, I have drawn in much detail how I "judge" people and what criteria I judge on. I wondered if he could do the same for me. What boxes does he check to get this "good feeling" thing that he stores about me in his people files? He really could not answer in a tangible way. He said something about me being friendly or open minded. I asked him to define the criteria for those words. I cannot remember all that went on in this little session but I saw him having to pause a lot and really think.

Finally I told him that the woman he portrayed had flipped my "Bozo bit" anyway so non of this matters. I could care less if she stored friendly thoughts about me. He pressed me to explain. I told him that anyone who would work in a job they did not like and use that as one of the first things they say to me is an idiot. Now he had something to attack. He informed me that we were going to work a little bit on my black/white attitude (My first shrink called this "contempt for people) that I often get in social situations. I admit it. I think people are often stupid. I hear it time and again from Doctors who treat ASD kids that these kids think it too and I see it all over the boards so now it is out. People are stupid. So he unwisely (IMHO) set out to argue my logic in this instance and scenario.

I think it was unwise because I believe I have him matched in IQ and he is arguing logic. I am neurologically stronger in Logic so I have distinct advantage. He started to argue that this woman was working this job because it gave her flexible hours, because she did not have the education for the job she really wanted and a few other things... I told him to stop. I went to the whiteboard and drew a table. (I <3 tables) On one side was risk on the other was benefit. I started to write these benefits he was proporting. (At the top of the column I wrote the statement, "I hate my job") Finally I told him to stop talking and give me a second. I wrote on the risk side of the table, depression, sh***y Mom, sh***y wife, sh***y life.... I turned to him and explained that no amount of benefit in the world could logically argue a person's decision to work a job they hated with these risks looming. He countered that the risks had not been realized. I gave him my "look" and said, "Oh come on Doctor." "This is your field and you know as well as I that a job that eats us alive will ultimately lead to these risks." He came up with some other arguments... One of them was that she had made this statement to me becauses he was intimidated by my job. I countered that was even stupider. He argued that it wasn't. I told him it made no sense at all. He informed me that this isn't about logic but peoples feelings. I told him to continue.... He countered that she was having a bad week and made that statement due to that one week not because of the fact that she really hated her job. I again told him that wasn't logical and was stupid. Why would ANYONE with any common sense use this as an opening line to a person they did not know? Again he used emotion over logic... That SOOOOO does not make sense to me.

We more or less had to end it there. He felt confident that he can continue to attack my overall black/white issues. I am thinking that he is going to go down unless he figures out a new techniqe or strategy. Guess we'll have to wait until next week to figure it out.

On the good news side of things this is actually good progress for him and me. He is attacking the part of my ASD that is actually my weakest link and needs some attacking. My ability to abstract is probably lower than my other abilities. I have always struggled with being exceedingly literal and not being able to abstract or see things from any other way. I have also worked hard over the years to get better. This is still a big sticking point with me and when I am stressed out, it comes out in spades.

I actually found it easier to cope with some small talk by just doing the "asking questions" thing. Of course, the first person I tried it on (last year) turned out to be an Aspie herself. It was hilarious because we were both faking at the other until she saidshe was an Aspie, and I said I'd thought I might be and/or ADHD, and then everything was easier because we didn't have to put up a front.

That's kinda odd... I reread that last session and one thing struck me. Both you and he were making it so much more complicated than it really is.

Yes. People really are that 'stupid', especially when compared to pure logic. Assuming he is NT himself, there is a good possibility he is unwilling or unable to concede that point. People do not think logically as a general rule and emotions, and a boatload of other things, get even further in the way of sound judgement. Now, does that mean we go around reminding them that they are stupid, or not thinking clearly or obviously don't have the brain power to figure out better solutions? No. Just like we don't laugh at kids in wheelchairs or stand for bullying a kid that stims. We act polite and bite our tongue. We do not try and 'fix' them - in the same way we do not want them trying to 'fix' us. Small talk is 'superficial' talk. It means nothing other than you are being polite to someone you have no intention of developing a relationship with. That's it. It's business. For those that get the 'doggie biscuit' from these superficial interactions it can mean much more. These interactions feed their ego. They feel important and interesting and 'connected' when people want to know about them. Many times these small talk situations escalate like male peacocks facing off... who has the prettiest tail... In work situations, small talk gives people a feeling of what 'level' they are on in comparision to you. It's fact finding and classifying. It takes many forms.

By no means do most people 'know' these rules. They do not know/follow/respect/abide by these social rules. They simply react to these situations on instinct - on a gut emotional level. The trouble comes when logic meets instinct. Technically, they are incompatible. You may not ever 'get it' just as they will, most likely, never 'get it'. The best you can hope for is acceptance - by you, of them - because asking them to do the work that would be required to meet us in the middle is simply not going to happen. Yes, they are stupid in that emotion clouds what otherwise might be a brilliant mind. And it is not our job to fix that. To get along, we simply have to accept people and their failings and not hold those perceived failings against them.

When you are in a small talk situation you will meet all kinds. There are those that are just as bored as you. There are those who will talk endlessly about themselves LONG after people have stopped asking them questions. There are people who will blow you off in a question or two. There are millions of possible reactions. Most of those will be emotionally based, instinctive reactions. People bail out of a conversation when someone 'makes them uncomfortable'. People will 'feel good about you' because you deemed them interesting and important by asking about them. You could have just slashed all their tires in the parking lot but they'll remember you as 'nice' even after you are caught and convicted - "Be she seemed so nice..."

I honestly survive by realizing I'll never 'get it'. I'll never experience this the way they do. I'll never get the doggie biscuit because someone asked me about my daughter in conversation or because I got an unexpected gift. I don't get warm fuzzy feelings from those things. But they do. I know they do because people do for others what they would like to have done for themselves (in the 'relationship' sense). But I have a good enough idea of how they operate that I can navigate my way well enough. I can guess that the friend that is always trying to surprise you with little presents would be THRILLED to get little presents in return. Occassionally you will meet someone who does/says things with no expectations of return - they are a rare treasure to cherish. People don't exercise these expectations knowingly or maliciously. It's just how things work for them. If you somehow fail to meet their 'expectation', judgements are passed. We all know that feeling - when someone has concluded that you are not friend material and they just stop calling or actually turn you away. We never know why. We failed to meet some expectation of theirs that even they may not be consciously aware of. It just 'felt wrong'.

Bottom line - they don't 'make sense' but they don't have to. You just need to realize and accept that they don't, won't and probably never will 'make sense' to you. I found with a sense of acceptance things became much easier. This is just the way people are. It doesn't really require much more than that. I do not expect much of people in general. Occassionally, I'm pleasantly surprised. It's a pretty good place to be. Neutral.

And I know full well how arrogant all of that would sound to any NT reading it. I do not mean it that way - it is simply how I cope with social situations with my ability and/or lack thereof. I'm fairly certain most NT's do not realize how condescending and arrogant THEIR explanations sound to us either. Self centered. Arrogant. Unempathetic. Cold. All these things have appeared in various dx criteria for ASD. From their perspective, it may seem that way. What it really is a misinterpretation of something they don't understand - from both sides.

@draelynn:
You bring up so many good points. I think, for me, the problem isn't so much that I don't understand social interactions sometimes, but more that I don't get the same rewards for participating in them that others seem to do. All I tend to get is a sense of exhaustion and boredom. The worst are social dinner parties and other events where the socialization is the main point of the activity. I have to fight to stay awake and sit there hoping that nobody bothers to remember that I am there. There's no doggie biscuit for me, either, and I think that's why I tend to view socialization as a chore. My ideal social time is playing video games with someone or doing some activity together. To me, that has a more direct purpose and I'm much less resistant to participating. I like having other people around, but I prefer a different type of exchange.

@kfisherx:
Reading about your most recent session is interesting to me.

I think the "store good feelings" part is a type of inner tally system that some people use that allows them to keep tabs of how any individual conversation went. In other words, it is a value system based on how the conversation "felt". Did it go well? Would you want to talk to this person again at a later date? What information did you learn about that person? That sort of thing...

Alternatively, it could also mean that, the next time you two meet, that person is likely to view you in a more positive light than before since you were friendly and willing to ask questions. Consequently, since you were viewed positively, they might be more open next time to doing social "business" with you. That ties into the whole concept of social reciprocity. They'll do nice things for you if you do nice things for them, and vice versa.

Mind you, understanding all of this doesn't make me want to participate. Small talk always seemed so superficial to me... and it IS superficial. It is meant to be on the surface and the point is not information exchange in the way that I would like it. That said, I can see that it is important to the people around me. For that reason, learning these skills will probably be of benefit. You don't have to like what you are doing, though, and you can always chose later to toss all of the lessons out the window if they ring false to you. Having the choice, though, should be valuable.

I think that is the whole point actually. We get our doggie biscuits elsewhere. But, in therapy, there seems to be this idea that if they can teach social skills, somehow we'll enjoy it the way they do. This is where the 'faking it' comes. This is why it is so exhausting. We don't and probably never will get the reward for social interaction the way they do. For me, it ALWAYS requires effort. Lots and lots of conscious mindful thought, always, just to do something they do instinctually usually with no thought at all.

A dinner party with people I don't know very well? I'd be crawling out of my skin the entire time but I'd do so with a smile on my face, and I'd force myself to toss in the occassional poignant comment so they know I'm paying attention and not being rude. And I'll thank them profusely and pretend I had a great time and even send the follow up thank you note because that is what is expected and I'll pray they don't invite me again. I've gotten it down to the point where people just think I'm shy or quiet or slow to warm up to people. None of those things are true. But those perceptions get me through casual social situations without anyone thinking much more of it which, I think, is the entire goal. To blend in seemlessly, with no further thought on the matter.

I don't have too much to add, except that I'm in agreement with you on all of this. I can fit in seemlessly too, for the most part, but it doesn't mean that I enjoy it. Oh well, maybe one day I'll understand what the fuss is about with socialization.