Social Skills Training for Adults
You bring up so many good points. I think, for me, the problem isn't so much that I don't understand social interactions sometimes, but more that I don't get the same rewards for participating in them that others seem to do. All I tend to get is a sense of exhaustion and boredom. The worst are social dinner parties and other events where the socialization is the main point of the activity. I have to fight to stay awake and sit there hoping that nobody bothers to remember that I am there. There's no doggie biscuit for me, either, and I think that's why I tend to view socialization as a chore. My ideal social time is playing video games with someone or doing some activity together. To me, that has a more direct purpose and I'm much less resistant to participating. I like having other people around, but I prefer a different type of exchange.
I think that is the whole point actually. We get our doggie biscuits elsewhere. But, in therapy, there seems to be this idea that if they can teach social skills, somehow we'll enjoy it the way they do. This is where the 'faking it' comes. This is why it is so exhausting. We don't and probably never will get the reward for social interaction the way they do. For me, it ALWAYS requires effort. Lots and lots of conscious mindful thought, always, just to do something they do instinctually usually with no thought at all.
A dinner party with people I don't know very well? I'd be crawling out of my skin the entire time but I'd do so with a smile on my face, and I'd force myself to toss in the occassional poignant comment so they know I'm paying attention and not being rude. And I'll thank them profusely and pretend I had a great time and even send the follow up thank you note because that is what is expected and I'll pray they don't invite me again. I've gotten it down to the point where people just think I'm shy or quiet or slow to warm up to people. None of those things are true. But those perceptions get me through casual social situations without anyone thinking much more of it which, I think, is the entire goal. To blend in seemlessly, with no further thought on the matter.
I don't have too much to add, except that I'm in agreement with you on all of this. I can fit in seemlessly too, for the most part, but it doesn't mean that I enjoy it. Oh well, maybe one day I'll understand what the fuss is about with socialization.
Keeping it simple.
I break this up into parts. My doggy biscuit reward is a good meal. You make me steak and I will 'shake hands' like a dog
Be yourself and some gruffness may exude, 'the countenance' may show boredom, but this is the you.
I don't pretend.
I break this up into parts. My doggy biscuit reward is a good meal. You make me steak and I will 'shake hands' like a dog
Be yourself and some gruffness may exude, 'the countenance' may show boredom, but this is the you.
I don't pretend.
^^^THIS^^^
I have been trying to be "flexible" about this all week. I had a long talk with my neighbor on Saturday and that was about as far as I moved. I had this realization that I CAN do this, but if the BOZO BIT gets stuck I simply won't. So, the problem is not in the small talk strategy so much as in my "BOZO BIT" trigger. I am pretty riled up about this and ready to win. Hoping I can change my attitude before the session tomorrow....
We talked last week about the possibility that this is NOT a realistic goal for me....
This is going to be a fascinating two weeks. I got a date with Michelle Winner in Tacoma next Wed. I may have nothing to talk about if I give up before then.
The good Doctor decided that part of my education should be watching this 1.5 minute video on human interaction. He described the video to me so that I could be prepared to see it. The scenario is set up by a PhD at Harvard University. He used a Mommy and a baby. In the first part of the video the Mommy was interacting with the baby doing all the "right" things with it and the baby responded with happy baby stuff. Then the Mother turned her head for a moment and then back towards the baby and became unresponsive and "cold" towards the baby. The baby responded by melting down. The Doctor felt that if I watched this short video, it might help me to see how humans interact off each other and possibly help me to think a bit more before using "rude" tactics in small talk situations. I told him I was "game" for this and we jumped in....
I think neither of us were ready for what happened next....
The video began (no audio as he wanted to talk me through it). A few seconds in the video, he asks if I saw what the Mother had done. I was a bit shocked because I had not. Even though I KNEW what I was "supposed" to be watching, my attention was on the baby's highly ornate blanket. I asked him to stop and rewind and walk it through more slowly. He did and paused it at a point in the scenario to explain the Mother's expression. He asked me if I saw how she was happy towards the baby. I said that the Mother looked angry to me. He walked me through the angry versus happy face signs. (Okay whew.... I swear it looked like she was going to bite the kid) This continued all the way through the video. It was dreadfully painful. I tried to focus on the faces real-time but was unable to do it especially as he was explaining.
At the end of this 1.5 minute video we both sort of just set back in our chairs a little bit exhausted. I felt like I had seen what he wanted me to see and that I could articulate "in words" what he gained from the video. We were both a bit surprised at how hard it was for me to follow the video.... I then remembered a conversation earlier this week on my ASD page in facebook on meta-cognition and how our views of the world are so vastly different so I challenged the Doctor.....
"Okay Doc..." "So perhaps I fell down on the whole people thing but tell me if you will what pattern was on the baby's sweater?" (I told him to not look at the screen) The Doctor sat back and stated very confidently that the baby had a red sweater with white
stripes. "Wrong" I countered... "The stripes starting at the hand/sleeve where light blue, light yellow, darker yellow, green, light pink and white. The weaving pattern (the way it was knitted) was horizontal for the body of the sweater with thicker opposite patters at the end of the sleeves." I then paused giving him time to look at the video and verify that I was correct. He nodded his head. I then asked him if we should discuss the patterns in the baby's blanket or the texture that was in the plastic of the baby's seat or perhaps the weave that was in the light blue straps that held the baby into the seat.... He sat in silence indicating that he was out-trumped.
My point to him was that he and I see the world in such vastly differing ways. Neither of us had even a remote clue how much that would impact our views of this video...
I was shocked at how very much this side-by-side (blow by blow) comparison exposed. It represented to me just exactly who much I miss in every day interactions and encounters. It also represented to me just how much more I see in those encounters.
After this little exercise we talked some about where to go next. Our conversation went back to the topic of last week which was that I was too judgemental of people and treated them rudely as a result. He claimed that I did not allow for areas of gray in our interactions. I cautioned him that I matched himi in IQ and could most probably out-logic him so we probably should not get into a "logic" match. He agreed that we would not but thought that we should continue the discussion. I got pretty mad then...
Net result is that I dropped the "F" bomb at least 20 times in the next 10 minutes. LOL! BUT... The good news is that we did uncover an interesting piece of data. My super duper literal translations of things especially as it pertains to small talk scenarios really hurt me. Fot example I HATE when people say, "I'm sorry" to me when they did not do anything. It makes NO SENSE. It isn't at all logical and I cannot get over the words. If I am under stress and someone does that to me, I will ilkely bite their head off. The Dr. thought that a good thing for us to work on might be to identify these phrases that challenge me and to develop my Lexicon. He suggested that I try to add this phrase into my vocabularly. Uh... Not just NO but f*k NO. I laughed at him and told him that we need to work on baby steps with these things. How about if we work on me not getting instantly pissed off about the phrase and call it good?
We had to end it there... Until next time!
I remember the day I FINALLY understood 'I'm sorry." I was 34. My standard answer when someone seemingly offered this apology for something they clearly had no implication in, I'd always say the same thing - somewhat annoyed - 'What for? You didn't do anything wrong." By my 30's I was quite pissed by this little social convention that made absolutely no sense.
I had a work collegue explain it to me in black and white.
"I'm sorry for [whatever you are going thru]. I sympathize with you." Conveniently, that is shortened to a simple, 'I'm sorry.' It imparts sympathy, consolation and/or condolences as well as comraderie. It is multifunctional as a term. And everyone else gets thats without ever having to be given the long explanation.
you b***h to a friend about a hard day. They say 'I'm sorry." (I sympathize with your long day - I've had them myself...)
you get mad because your hard day had nothing to do with your friend and they have no blame to assume and apologize for. your friend again says 'I'm sorry." (this time, I'm actually sorry I made you angry even if I'm not sure how.)
The only difference might be inflection. And really, they all get this. They don't even understand that you don't because it isn't something they learned - it's intuitive. It's like asking someone to be conscious of every breathe they take or every heartbeat. It's an automatic function they take for granted. Even when you tell people 'you have nothing to be sorry for' they tend to interpret that as 'you have no reason to be offering me your sympathy - stop being nice to me." They don't understand that you actually think they are apologizing for doing something wrong. They all intuitively know that 'I'm sorry' has multiple meanings.
I have added it to my arsenal. Along with 'I'm sorry for your loss." and 'That must be hard for you." Those three phrases can get you through the most uncomfortable emotional conversations where normally I'd just freeze up and say nothing at all. Much of the time I am forcing them through a clenched jaw but - magically - they work. It doesn't even have to have a real emotion behind it. Sometimes I really wish it did though. But sometimes I'm equally glad that I'm not at the mercy of my emotions like that too.
Verdandi
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Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)
I found this video, which is similar:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apzXGEbZht0[/youtube]
I think I picked up on what "I'm sorry" as sympathy means years ago, and picked it up - but then most people seem to say "You have nothing to apologize for." I don't know that many people actually like it.
I had a work collegue explain it to me in black and white.
"I'm sorry for [whatever you are going thru]. I sympathize with you." Conveniently, that is shortened to a simple, 'I'm sorry.' It imparts sympathy, consolation and/or condolences as well as comraderie. It is multifunctional as a term. And everyone else gets thats without ever having to be given the long explanation.
you b***h to a friend about a hard day. They say 'I'm sorry." (I sympathize with your long day - I've had them myself...)
you get mad because your hard day had nothing to do with your friend and they have no blame to assume and apologize for. your friend again says 'I'm sorry." (this time, I'm actually sorry I made you angry even if I'm not sure how.)
The only difference might be inflection. And really, they all get this. They don't even understand that you don't because it isn't something they learned - it's intuitive. It's like asking someone to be conscious of every breathe they take or every heartbeat. It's an automatic function they take for granted. Even when you tell people 'you have nothing to be sorry for' they tend to interpret that as 'you have no reason to be offering me your sympathy - stop being nice to me." They don't understand that you actually think they are apologizing for doing something wrong. They all intuitively know that 'I'm sorry' has multiple meanings.
I have added it to my arsenal. Along with 'I'm sorry for your loss." and 'That must be hard for you." Those three phrases can get you through the most uncomfortable emotional conversations where normally I'd just freeze up and say nothing at all. Much of the time I am forcing them through a clenched jaw but - magically - they work. It doesn't even have to have a real emotion behind it. Sometimes I really wish it did though. But sometimes I'm equally glad that I'm not at the mercy of my emotions like that too.
I think I've always understood the reasoning behind why people say "I'm sorry" but it is completely wasted on me. Am I actually supposed to have an emotional reaction to people saying "I'm sorry", as in is it really meant to make me feel better? I want understanding from people but sympathy doesn't do anything for me. I'm curious if "I'm sorry" really has this magical effect of making most people actually feel better.
I had a work collegue explain it to me in black and white.
"I'm sorry for [whatever you are going thru]. I sympathize with you." Conveniently, that is shortened to a simple, 'I'm sorry.' It imparts sympathy, consolation and/or condolences as well as comraderie. It is multifunctional as a term. And everyone else gets thats without ever having to be given the long explanation.
you b***h to a friend about a hard day. They say 'I'm sorry." (I sympathize with your long day - I've had them myself...)
you get mad because your hard day had nothing to do with your friend and they have no blame to assume and apologize for. your friend again says 'I'm sorry." (this time, I'm actually sorry I made you angry even if I'm not sure how.)
The only difference might be inflection. And really, they all get this. They don't even understand that you don't because it isn't something they learned - it's intuitive. It's like asking someone to be conscious of every breathe they take or every heartbeat. It's an automatic function they take for granted. Even when you tell people 'you have nothing to be sorry for' they tend to interpret that as 'you have no reason to be offering me your sympathy - stop being nice to me." They don't understand that you actually think they are apologizing for doing something wrong. They all intuitively know that 'I'm sorry' has multiple meanings.
I have added it to my arsenal. Along with 'I'm sorry for your loss." and 'That must be hard for you." Those three phrases can get you through the most uncomfortable emotional conversations where normally I'd just freeze up and say nothing at all. Much of the time I am forcing them through a clenched jaw but - magically - they work. It doesn't even have to have a real emotion behind it. Sometimes I really wish it did though. But sometimes I'm equally glad that I'm not at the mercy of my emotions like that too.
Interesting, I have always known the phrase "I'm sorry" to have two meanings: one an apology and one as a show of sympathy. The difference would be clear in context. This is further confusing because one might respond to "I'm sorry" with "it's not your fault" as a sign of reassurance, even though both persons know there neither was to blame.
I personally don't like it, because vague language usage drives me crazy, but I do understand it in the idiomatic sense.
Sorry, you are having trouble with the usage of this phrase.
.
"Okay Doc..." "So perhaps I fell down on the whole people thing but tell me if you will what pattern was on the baby's sweater?" (I told him to not look at the screen) The Doctor sat back and stated very confidently that the baby had a red sweater with white
stripes. "Wrong" I countered... "The stripes starting at the hand/sleeve where light blue, light yellow, darker yellow, green, light pink and white. The weaving pattern (the way it was knitted) was horizontal for the body of the sweater with thicker opposite patters at the end of the sleeves." I then paused giving him time to look at the video and verify that I was correct. He nodded his head. I then asked him if we should discuss the patterns in the baby's blanket or the texture that was in the plastic of the baby's seat or perhaps the weave that was in the light blue straps that held the baby into the seat.... He sat in silence indicating that he was out-trumped.
My point to him was that he and I see the world in such vastly differing ways. Neither of us had even a remote clue how much that would impact our views of this video...
I was shocked at how very much this side-by-side (blow by blow) comparison exposed. It represented to me just exactly who much I miss in every day interactions and encounters. It also represented to me just how much more I see in those encounters.
Facinating! I watched the video first in Verdandi's link. I always watch videos first whenever I get to a post page, regardless of where they are in the post sequence. I just like videos. So that's how I came to watch the video before reading your post.
As I watched the video, I was filled with dread and horror. This is the stuff of nightmares. Baby nightmares that never go away for NT adults (I am NT). Being BAP (probably), I intellectualized while watching it which kept the horror at bay. My intellectualization was to think that this is what the horribly scary movie "Revenge of the Body Snatchers" was really about. Movie critics say it was about Communism but I think on a primal level it was about this...the dread that the person you love becomes this. I hated that movie, which features many scenes that are pretty much exactly like the one that made this baby melt down. This horror is archetypal enough that it's shown up in many movies. I think it's at the heart of zombie movies.
So then I read your post. Like your Doc, I thought the baby had a red sweater with white stripes. So I re-watched the video and I got it wrong just like he did. It was red, and there was a white stripe across his chest. But there were lots of other color stripes too and I hadn't picked up anything whatsoever about stripe width, or how the sleeve stripes were a bit different and certainly I noticed nothing about the baby chair itself. Probably the only reason the Doc and I noticed the red background and the white chest stripe is that those were near the baby's face, which is what we were both actually watching and the "red with white stripe" info got picked up in peripheral vision.
The world is full of gigantic quantities of information, far more than a human brain can process. We all must filter that data. I guess this all goes to show just how different two peoples' perceptions of the world can be from something as seemingly minor as different data filters.
It's been a while since I've really delved into this thread, but I've had some SST (Social Skills Training) issues I've been dealing with.
I was asked to give a presentation to a small group of clients at another agency. That I agreed to do it was something in and of itself! But I did it and did rather well - except for the fact that I sweated a lot at first.
Anyhoo...I trailed the guy who asked me to do the presentation after work. When we got there, he engaged me in some small-talk which I did my best to oblige; after a while, though, I began to struggle for things to say or even answers to his questions. My answers tended to be somewhat terse. He's cool and all, easy to talk to if you're into that kind of thing. Actually I would've preferred to stare out the second floor windows at the autumnal scenery that gray and cloudy afternoon. The people who work/volunteer at the agency came in and introduced themselves - shook hands. Nice ladies and all, but I didn't really have anything of substance to talk about other than to answer their questions about where I work. The guy had his celly...wished I had mine as I left it out in the car in the console.
When the clients arrived we got into the session. I notice that my co-worker didn't necessarily say anything to the clients he had supposedly presented to previously...whatever. When my time came, I did my thing...sweated...recognized some of the faces as people I had served before. Two of the parents were women I had seen. I got more comfortable speaking before them and STOPPED sweating, then finished. After that, the clients and workers asked questions - well, mostly the workers talked.
It was what happened afterward that was of concern to me. They had snacks so everybody seemed to gravitate towards the table that was set up. Bagged popcorn and salty potato chips. I asked if they wanted the printed information to keep for their clients. They did. Everybody was engaged in small-talk chatting it up. Of course, I reverted to my normal state of not knowing what to say or do in this situation - even though I had served a couple of the parents before. Add to this the fact that I was famished.
So I did what came natural: I simply left having nothing else to contribute to the situation rather than to stand there looking like
The next day, my co-worker says to me, "Boy you were outta there FAST!" I simply told him that I was very hungry. The fact was I lost for what to say or what to do in that situation. I realize that it could look like I didn't want to be bothered or something else negative. I'm not certain of what I would've gotten out of hanging around with a bunch of people I really don't know other than having served a couple of them in the not so recent past. I couldn't talk about the end of baseball season or about football because THEY is of no interest to me.
Not so sure anybody wants to indulge my interest in cruise ships - especially given the fact that I've never actually BEEN on one. Or my interest in collecting old 1970s music (Chic, Peter Brown, Change, Parliament/Funkadelic).
So I just left.
I just needed to vent.
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I did not go looking for Asperger's...it found me by way of my Higher Power. Once we became acquainted, I found out that we had quite a bit in common and we became good friends. And then I landed on WrongPlanet!
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Last edited by Surreal on 17 Oct 2011, 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I think I fit in this camp. I understand why people say they do it but it does nothing more than piss me off. I think it has to do with the fact that I don't "feel" what they "feel" and I cannot imagine that others feel that way. I think my ToM is a bit more impaired than some of you who can just accept these things. It isn't logical so it should not be a rule, is how I am looking at this. THIS is the way I have been my whole life and the arguments I have used my whole life. This is what I fight more than anything. Not that I don't conceptually know these phrases but that they cause me to get angry. I have no control really over hiding my anger or emotions either so it is very obvious when I am thrown off. Perhaps I can work on hiding these as well?
I don't know at this point. I only know that I am a lifetime away from being able to use that phrase in this stupid way....
I think I fit in this camp. I understand why people say they do it but it does nothing more than piss me off. I think it has to do with the fact that I don't "feel" what they "feel" and I cannot imagine that others feel that way. I think my ToM is a bit more impaired than some of you who can just accept these things. It isn't logical so it should not be a rule, is how I am looking at this. THIS is the way I have been my whole life and the arguments I have used my whole life. This is what I fight more than anything. Not that I don't conceptually know these phrases but that they cause me to get angry. I have no control really over hiding my anger or emotions either so it is very obvious when I am thrown off. Perhaps I can work on hiding these as well?
I don't know at this point. I only know that I am a lifetime away from being able to use that phrase in this stupid way....
Question: When a friend or co-worker comes to you and begins complaining of something that went wrong for them, what is your usual reaction to them?
I know, for the longest time, I would listen carefully, catalogue all the facts and then try to help them piece together why it went wrong and how to 'fix it' - as in actually solve a problem and/or rationalize it so it no longer emotional upset them. The tendancy to do that is still overwhelming. It took a long time and many stern lectures by my husband to point out that people aren't looking to you to 'fix' them. All they want is some sympathy. My first reaction to that was 'HOW WEAK IS THAT?'. And that's where my arrogant reputation came from... I don't think people are weak for wanting sympathy - I thought it was weak that a casual acquaintance would tell their story just to get someones sympathy. Emotions were something I reserved for those close to me - family, close friends. It never occured to me that it was PROPER to be emotional with EVERYONE thus never saw it in that context. I thought it was just just ego stroking people were looking for...
Would adding a qualifier on to 'I'm sorry..." make it any less repulsive for you? Or maybe simply skipping the semantics and saying "I can sympathize with that..." I'm only asking because this is a small phrase that is a pretty big deal in their world. Being able to verbally show sympathy in daily interactions is important to them whether you actually feel it or not.
Accepting people for the emotional beings they are wasn't easy. I've been actively working at it daily for over 10 years. And it doesn't help that the understanding and acceptance I'm learning isn't reciprocated in the least little bit. And there is probably one of the big reasons why depression is so prevalant in ASD.
I too go into fix it mode when someone tells me about their problems. Hearing about bad stuff makes me uncomfortable and I want that feeling to go away so I can continue doing what I was doing. Simple listening to someone is very hard on me. They may feel better after, but I will feel drained. Also, sympathy seeking is somewhat foreign to me. I would consider it a weakness. On the other hand, sometimes it can be nice to talk to someone. That latter part often comes into conflict with my logical self though... So it may lead to further frustration. Emotions are one of those things that I struggle with. I feel some things too strongly and others not enough. Either way its confusing.
As for "I'm sorry", that is a phrase I overuse. To me, though, it translated to "I'm not happy about what you just told me." I don't pity them, per say, it is just my reaction to an uncomfortable situation. I frequently use it even in situations when I didn't do anything wrong. I'm not apologizing, but more just expressing how something makes me feel bad. Perhaps there's a better way to go about it that I haven't found.
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I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it.
I either tease them with a "sux to be you" sort of thing or I will listen and offer advice like you used to do. The interesting part of this is that people DO seek my advice.... Regularly... I have had bosses tell me they were going to buy a counselling chair for my office because people come into my office all the time. I swear... My inside reaction is of horror as sometimes the stuff they tell me is soooo dark and honestly I don't care. I never offer anything but my logically opinions and people LOVE that. I will never understand this part of my life and it is like from a movie scene. LOL! One day, I was at this job for about 2 weeks when this woman started to tell me about her abusive husband... I swear this is true.... (I could never make this stuff up)
I either tease them with a "sux to be you" sort of thing or I will listen and offer advice like you used to do. The interesting part of this is that people DO seek my advice.... Regularly... I have had bosses tell me they were going to buy a counselling chair for my office because people come into my office all the time. I swear... My inside reaction is of horror as sometimes the stuff they tell me is soooo dark and honestly I don't care. I never offer anything but my logically opinions and people LOVE that. I will never understand this part of my life and it is like from a movie scene. LOL! One day, I was at this job for about 2 weeks when this woman started to tell me about her abusive husband... I swear this is true.... (I could never make this stuff up)
You should put some of the stories int writing and make a book of it. I am sure it would make for some fun reading.
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I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it.
