NT/ Aspie THread

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We are getting off topic, folks.


M.

Ask a parent and they would say their AS kids talk much MORE, on average, than the NT's. Assuming they are verbal, of course.

And daughters talk much more than boys.

But I am wondering if, perhaps, in the days before AS was well understood, parents may have squashed all that talking out of their kids? Or does it just change as one grows older and becomes more aware of how those around are reacting to it? I would say that AS ADULTS talk LESS than NT adults, on average, but if you look at the kids ... this is not the way its programmed.

I'm sorry for adding to the off-topicness.

In an effort to move us forward, I'll ask another question since the responses I received before were very helpful.

My husband doesn't seem to have a setting for "conversation" in which both people equally share and together form a joint vision. For him, it seems that all conversations are an issue of being right or wrong, winning or losing, one person monologuing or the other. If he doesn't care enough to win, he doesn't engage the conversation at all. If he does engage, he is rather ruthless in proving his point, will spend a disproportionate amount of time in backing himself up with quotes or references, and gets quite bitter if I don't recognize that he's right and I'm wrong. The same isn't true in reverse, though, because he firmly believes he is 100% correct if he has gotten to the point of engaging the topic so he can't or won't admit that others have points of interest or could be right. He'll just decide that winning isn't worth it at that point and drop the conversation completely.

An example from this week is that he and I disagreed on a political issue, as we often do. It is related to his latest interest so I assume it was personal for him, but I didn't personally care about it and discussed it from an intellectual, philosophical, exercise in politics kind of mindset. The reasons we disagreed had nothing to do with each other. He was looking at it from the standpoint of, let's say effects on the economy, while I was looking at it from the standpoint of, let's say, constitutionality. I actually agreed with him that it would have the effect on the economy he desired but I didn't believe that justified making an unconstitutional law. I'm making this up, but you get the idea. He got a condescending tone in his voice, his body became very tense, his eyes became determined and focused as if I his wife was no longer there and in my place stood his opposition. He looked up all sorts of quotes to prove that it would have the effect on the economy he believed it would, and then swept my entire argument aside with one short sweeping statement. "Besides, there's a precedent of other similar laws already."

When I told him that I was hurt by his aggressiveness toward me, especially his tone of voice, and said that he hadn't discussed anything I was talking about, he got very upset with me and said I was just wrong about him and that's all there is to it. He won't discuss it more. He said that I always say his tone of voice is condescending in discussions like that and that he interprets it as I have a problem with people disagreeing and his tone of voice has nothing to do with it. I regularly disagree with friends on politics and never experience this with them so I find it hard to believe that I'm misinterpreting his tone of voice, choice of words, and body language which all clearly projected anger and determination and find it easier to believe that he is unaware of what was going on with his body because he was too caught up in the argument. Either way, no matter what his tone of voice is, if it is causing such problems in our marriage for both of us, I would think we would need a workaround of changing the tone or changing the choice of words or something to more clearly communicate what he says his intent is, but he doesn't believe this is necessary.

I'm hoping for some insight on where this is going wrong in the first place, with the initial disagreement, to look for some solutions. Why is it that a mutual conversation is so difficult for my husband and why, from my perspective, all conversations are seen as win, lose, or forfeit? And if you have suggestions on how to encourage more conversation while at the same time discouraging this win or lose focus in them, I'd also appreciate it.

I don't have any insight but I totally, totally get what you are talking about. My father was VERY like that and my AS husband is MOSTLY like that. My AS son is also like that but, um, I'm his mom and I'm working with him on it and since I'm his mom he currently at least tries to see where I'm coming from. And get into a debate on these forums? Almost always win, lose or forfeit, and I can't think of any one ever conceding to a loss in any of the threads I've read. I honestly think its part of AS. Every conclusion is carefully reached in what the person believes is a logical manner and, thus, once reached must be correct. Logic, after all, isn't variable (if you ask most members here, anyway).

I don't know if I am like your husband, but many times I have experienced situations where something I have given much thought to, and would like to express, and as I am trying to explain my point of view, I am criticized instead on my form of delivery, ie. my tone of voice makes her uncomfortable, or I am moving my foot, or twisting a finger, and it is distracting her. It is very frustrating for me when that happens. Of course I realize that she too is also limited by the neurological system that she was born with, and if I am going to communicate with her, I need to work on my delivery, but still it can sometimes feel rather like I am the one who has to make all of the concessions because she is already like what is normal and acceptable to the world, just being her natural self.

Last edited by willmark on 24 Jul 2009, 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Gotta come up with the tough ones, don’t ya? <sigh> Time to break the 'ol fingers again

First, let me address the emotional hurt part: Don't allow yourself to get hurt by this behavior. Whenever I am intent on a problem (be it a computer issue or a debate or whatever) I always get the comment "are you pissed?" sailing in from left field. This is because my “concentration face” looks mad. Remember that 'total focus' deal? I concentrate so much of my resources, no, more like I concentrate so much of my being on the issue that I drop all other functions entirely. My facial control drops, my social control suffers, my breathing changes, the world falls away and there is only the issue at hand to the exclusion of all else.

I will tell you how I picked this up. During the course of my life, I've watched public speakers and live television debates. I ended up memorizing these behavior sets as part of my method of debating with others. The upside is that I'm great on a podium. The downside is that most televised debates are from diametrically opposing sides! Republican v. democrat. Pro-choice v. pro-life. These people (typically) vehemently despise each other on TV. It makes for good TV. It does not make for good “reality”. I’ve had to work on this hard to reverse the damage when I subconsciously lapse into these states without realizing it. On the job I’ve been called condescending when explaining computer networking issues to users or management without ever intending to be. The sad part is that I didn’t believe it for the first ten or so times I was told until it reached a number of people that I just couldn’t ignore and had to accept that I had a problem with it. My emails are likewise afflicted. Part of my whole journey here has been to improve my communication style so that I don’t have to qualify every other sentence with a SMILEY to make sure the person at the other end isn’t taking it as “mean”, etc. To me, it was simple: I was not trying to be mean or condescending and therefore I was not. If they interpreted it that way, it was some kind of failing on their part. He is here now. You may have a hard time convincing him that he is coming across this way all by yourself.

HOWEVER, this is not to say you have to just accept this behavior! He needs to be made aware of it like you're doing, but it must be in the right way and at the right time. Some good ideas for this include:

• Ask if other people have mentioned this to him
• Force him to watch something with friendly conversational debates. I’m not sure what to choose, but there has to be something that would work. Sit him down for a 20 hour marathon session of The View or something where they just debate things but try to keep it friendly. Of course, you may simply add “snarky” and “Barbara-Walters-style catty” to the mix, but you get the idea.
• Above all DO NOT address the situation DURING or IMMEDIATELY AFTER the debate/mini-fight. If you do this, there is a clear and logical “out” that you are upset from “losing” or you are “emotional” and your statements will be discarded out-of-hand on that basis. Choose your time to discuss this and do it in a matter-of-fact way without emotion. State that this is an issue that you feel may impact your relationship! Explain when and how it happens and precisely what changes happen to him very clearly. Relate the behavior to the AS and NOT to anything personal about him or about any particular argument. I recommend you do NOT use examples or you will simply give him a straw to grasp at so he can defend himself by saying “well, that time you were pissed because I could back up my point with facts from <source> and you couldn’t”. Remember, NO CONCRETE EXAMPLES even if he asks. Go into hypotheticals if you must.

Now THIS is going to be extremely difficult to change – you may have to be the one to “bend” a bit more here. The best advice I have for you here is going to sound simple and goofy, but … rather than breaking the win/lose cycle, run with it! Before you start debating something and you know it is coming, sit down and lock eyes (if he will) or be close to him. Put your hand on his. Tell him something along the lines of this but at least be sure to include the parts in bold: “debating things with you is fun. It really lets me appreciate your mind and enjoy who you are. Winning and losing are very minor things between us. It’s okay to lose. Nobody is a bad person if they lose. If one of us loses, it is not a big deal. We’re here for this ride together and we’re partners. I’m behind you 100% no matter what.” Tailor the specific statements to your own situation and style, of course. If it is more effective, you could even put it in a letter to him!

I am now going to go soak my fingers in some warm mineral-water.

-- Vip