why are self-diagnosed aspies considered "posers?"

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I think that the only problem with Self-diagnosed people in general on specialized forum is that they can't really be incorporated to the data as "x".

For example, here, self-diagnosed aspies are a separate category from diagnosed aspie. They may or may not have a proper diagnosis later, I am one of those who believe that you can suspect a disorder and be right about it, however, as long as they are just self diagnosed they are a separate category in statistics because they could not have Autism.

I believe more on the "may or may not have it / do not know" category because it makes more sense to me when one does not have a proper diagnosis, but I understand that some people may be sure about it.

And as people said, sometimes one does not have enough money to get a diagnosis, or not enough details about their childhood, etc. Or just a uninformed doctor.

Plus, it's rally hard to have a diagnosis once you are adult, in general, it's the same with learning disorders and ADHD, that's because people and doctors believe that if you have not been diagnosed as a child, you don't have it.

Didn't know I was. I think I can live with being a poser.

This presumes all those who say they have a diagnosis can be reliablly "incorporated into the data as "X". But they can't.

1) You don't know that those who say they have a diagnosis are actually telling the truth.

2) Your statement implies that the assessment a Psych is always accurate. The facts show otherwise.

So it seems to me your position is based on a false premise.



How so? Who says? I'm not sure what you mean.



What "category of statistics" are you referring to? Who is taking these statistics and monitoring categories? And by "they could not have Autism", do you mean "It's impossible for them to have autism" or do you mean "they might not have autism"?

Either way, it doesn't really matter, because it's just s true that someone with a Psych diagnosis of AS "might not have autism". Psych diagnoses are not infallible, far, far, from it. And there is no evidence that a Psych evaluation is any more reliable than the exhaustively researched and deeply considered self-diagnosis of someone who has a lifetime of experience of their own condition.



It's good that you are more open-minded than some. But still, you have no more basis for believing someone online when they claim that they have a diagnosis than you have for believing someone who is self-diagnosed when they say they know they have AS. Maybe the person who says they have had a Psych diagnosis is lying? This is the internet, after all, where people commonly make use of anonymity to misrepresent themselves and I can think of many reasons why they might do so here. You really don't know, ever, and that's the point.

There's no sound basis for these imagined "categories" or for talk of reliable "Statistics" etc. It's actually all faith based and unwarranted - arbitrary faith in what some people claim online and lack of faith in what others claim and unwarranted confidence in the reliability, insight and experience of Psychs.

Last edited by Maolcolm on 31 Oct 2010, 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This is interesting, because what's described in DSM-IV as Asperger's Syndrome does not actually correspond to the condition described by Hans Asperger. What is described in DSM-IV is supposedly very rare.

I'd quote a reference, but, IIRC, you don't like references.

I do not think you have understood what I meant, it is true that I did not write many details (usually, people are annoyed by the fact that I give too many details to avoid some arguments or bein misunderstood).

I do know that sometimes doctors are wrong and I know that it is really hard to get a proper diagnosis, not only because it costs money, but because some doctors just won't give you the right "label".

I do not know whether people are lying or not but I assume they are not lying. It's just a forum so it really does not matter. In real life, those who have a diagnosis know it and may receive help, etc. Those who don't will not have anything like this, somehow I like to believe that they are not telling everyone that they are autistic and giving a wrong image of what Autism is like.

Of course, some may do it. Well, there will always be people like that.


I am just saying that without a diagnosis it is hard to tell whether someone has a condition or not and that some people are wrong about what they had self-diagnosed, but of course some are right.

In a way, having suspicions and seeking an official diagnosis could be considered as being a self-diagnosed because it shows that you are quite sure about it.

And yes, I know that sometimes the diagnosis is wrong or that some doctors deny everything depending on your country or how uninformed they are.

It's just that, many people here doubt about their diagnosis and are not sure whether they are autistic or not (well, it's understandable since there are so many similar conditions and given the fact that one can improve and that Asperger is "mild Autism") so it's easy to imagine that someone who is self-diagnosed could be wrong.

Though, I agree, for now, I have never seen anyone who was wrong about their self diagnosis, but it can happen.

So, what I was saying about stats is that on the forum, self-diagnosed are a different category of members (diagnosed / self-diagnosed / not sure / other condition or perfectly NT), and this category is quite undefined since they are both autistic and non autistic as they are sure that they should be diagnosed with Autism but still have no official diagnosis to confirm their suspicions.

And in real life, self-diagnosed people are not part of the stats at all since they have no official diagnosis. Sometimes, I even wonder if every diagnoses are taken into account officially, but that's another question.



And this is were you clearly do not understand what I mean but that's probably my fault.

I am not saying that I do not believe self-diagnosed people or that I look at their profile and say "oh, they are probably wrong since they do not have a diagnosis". And I know that some people lie, in general.

The fact is : you have no choice but accept what people are saying unless you have a proof that they are lying of course. I am not going to ask everyone on this forum to show a "diagnosis statement", especially since some people may have none (many things are just recorded informatically now, it's both a great thing and a shame).
You can have doubts, everyone has, but it does not really matter, it will not change what people are saying and the fact that some may llie and other may tell the truth.

And I do believe that it is sometimes better to try to be objective, think about our past, what we probably have been told, what are our difficulties, to read about several conditions and learn enough to be detached and know that we do not suffer from everything that is on the list.
I actually did that before seeking a diagnosis for my dyspraxia, I even took some online tests.

I really think it's a great thing. But really, it's not always reliable (people are more or less subjective and influenced by their feelings or by something or someone), no more than listening to someone else who sees you through his eyes (even a mother) and sometimes less that a good specialists (I know, there are not many of them, apparently four in my country so you see, I know that specialists are not always reliable). And well, many people are self diagnosed or have strong suspicions before getting a diagnosis, or else they would not seek this one in particular.


The categories and statistics refer to the forum and to the reality.

I do not see how we could ignore the fact that there are category on here, there are many thread mentionning them and some stats about how many self diagnosed we have on here compared to diagnosed people and how many NTs as well. If "self diagnosed" is not a different category, I do not see why it should be mentionned in the profile (I do not mean that everyone has to give an answer, just that diagnosed and self diagnosed are distinct category and that the creator probably had something in mind when they did that, or someone asked for it, I do not know).

And as I said, officially, you need a diagnosis to be considered autistic. Self-diagnosed people are not recognized by the government, just as many gifted people never took an IQ test to be part of the stats, it does not mean that they do not exist, it's just that the law and the country ignore their existence and they are put into another category.
And yes, we are always put into categories, the first one ? Our gender.

Anyway, I just meant that self-diagnosed are like "not sure" people, in a grey area, they may be autistic (or not), the main difference being that they have decided to claim that they are because they are sure about it. It's a choice to make. I prefer to say that I have suspicions whenever I do not have a diagnosis because I know that I could be wrong even if I have read a lot about it and try to be as objective as possible. Some make another decision.

I have nothing against that, I was just trying to answer to the question. People who have a problem with self-diagnosed people generally attack them for not having a proper diagnosis and needing to get one soon because they may be
-faking it
-exagerating
-nerds
and of course, there is the usual "you cannot understand what we are living + stats to prove that it is very rare and do not tell me that there are people who are not diagnosed because it's obvious when you're a child and the stats are right".

This claim is stupid (and I do not think that it's what I was saying) but I can see that official diagnosis matters for most people and for the government/medical researches, etc.

Also, there are always stories about people who felt bad, read a book about something and thought that it really sounded like them therefore they had the condition but in fact they did not.
People like this exist in real life, but I think that they are mostly hypocondriacs so they may change their diagnosis often and act impulsively or be very stressed by it. But I can't tell, never met one.


By the way, believing people who say they have read a lot and are objective and things like that is just like believing people who claim they have a diagnosis. They could lie.

Basically, everyone on this forum could be lying and this could be a big joke.

Thanks for your considered reply.

I understand what you are saying, we just don't quite agree. But I won't respond point by point as I think I covered them in my last post.

That is exactly my point. That being so, there is no basis for responding differently to different posters based on some supposedly having a diagnosis and others being self-diagnosed, because nothing can be known for sure (even those telling the truth about being psych diagnosed may have been misdiagnosed). Thus, we are left with no realistic option other than just taking each poster as we find them rather than mentally categorizing them or imagining we can know anything about them or the reality of their condition based on a claimed diagnosis or a self-diagnosis (not saying you do this, but some do).

Ah, maybe at least that element of a perfect society really is possible, eh?!

I am just happy that there are people hear talking about being an aspie and dealing with aspie issues. I wasn't thirty-five until I was diagnosed, so if I had been on this sight undiagnosed would that have made me any less of an aspie? No.

If someone thinks or even suspect they have Aspergers, then they probably do. As has been pointed out, we live on a spectrum, not a black and white scale.

Welcome one, welcome all.

That is my two cents. Great now I'm broke!

-Johnathan

I often wonder the ages of those who question the self diagnosed. If I had to guess, I would bet they are often younger.

Aspergers became officially recognized in 1994. That means a lot of us were out of school or so far into our educations that it was not something we could have been diagnosed with or considered. Also, what about women and girls? Experts admit girls are often missed and not diagnosed. So what does that leave for these groups? Self diagnosis, baring a finaicial burden many cannot afford. Sure, if you are employed and have great insurance you can afford it. But if you are unemployed or under employed? Not a chance.

There is one picture that always strikes me. In the pinned topic of a Cartoon Guide To aspergers, the character is in a box and says "hey, it fits!" That is what it is like for the self diagnosed. We have lived our lives feeling like we don't fit in. and suddenly there is an explanation.

I have been diagnosed by everyone except a Dr. which i will be going to see in a few weeks.
people come up and ask me if i have Asperger's. they see my mom and talk with her about my Asperger's. They give articles to us about Asperger's... yet Dr's can't see it. but everyone else can, even people who haven't seen me in 20 years have asked about it.

I've heard of it second hand but never run into it myself. This is an actual post on another forum:


Or internet bunghole hiding behind the autistic flag to avoid the consequences of their actions?

and then when pressed, they claimed:

They are not assumptions; they are direct observations. It's behavior that affects community members with actual impairments, and worth bringing to their attention so they can understand 1) that such masqueraders are out there and that 2) the BS THOSE folks pull make the rest of the community grumbly, and likely to be less trustful of anyone who identifies themselves in that way.
(note: the poster is not autistic)

I'd LOVE to know what "direct observations" these were, when these are people on the internet that nobody knows IRL and thus they CAN'T be "directly observed" to determine whether they're illegitimately claiming Aspergers, or faking.



Personally I wasn't even looking for AS when I was diagnosed, it came as a complete surprise. And yet there's morons who think that because they have some preconceptions of what Autism is all about, that since I have something like a sense of humor, that the neuropsychologist that diagnosed me must be incompetent.

I can see where self-diagnosis might be the only option for some people. And while it may seem illegitimate because it's not pro, I'd love to know how nonprofessionals can adequately determine whether the person is wrong.

I've also heard that, and also pressed for examples, and also gotten non-responses in reply. At this point, the next time I see that claim I'm going to say "put up a link, or it didn't happen."

I'm amazed that there are people who think that prejudice against something classified as a psych/mental disorder requires some unusual force in society to enable it. Are mentally ret*d people treated badly because of fakers making them look bad? If there weren't these reputation-ruining people, then would AS/autism be an accepted, positive thing, the way every other condition in the DSM is considered good and welcome by most people in society? Yeah, right. Prejudice exists; differences are usually marginalized by default. How can anyone not know that.

I am undiagnosed myself. I don't use the term "self-diagnosed" because I'm not a doctor &, it's not as if I can actually diagnose myself. As for the people saying those who are not diagnosed need to get a diagnosis, well, that person obviously has health care, or lots of money, or lives in a country where health care is given to all. I live in America, have never been able to work, have no income whatsoever, am not receiving disability benefits (as of yet) myself, & for those reasons & more, I do not have health care & have no idea when or even if I will ever be able to get it. Without health care, it is impossible to get tested. I often get mad at my parents for not doing something about it when I was a child, but Asperger's & other ASD's were not known as well in the 80's & early 90's as they are today & no one noticed the signs. I was just viewed as "shy", "strange", "in my own world", "aloof", etc., etc., etc.

I know, I have seen a lot of forums (and this one is actually the only one I know which show distinct categories but welcome everyone) and was struck me was the "diagnosis is truth" mentality.
And you also find it on DeviantART, there are many popular stamps claiming that those who do not have a diagnosis are just nerds or depressed teenagers who want people to pay attention to them. (And of course, if you have not been diagnosed before you were 15, you are nothing but a joke.)

On another forum, I read a lot of aspies who have been diagnosed during adulthood using almost the same words. They will talk about the Forer (or Barnum) Effect, about how rare Autism is, that one need to have a diagnosis to be autistic or it means that they just lack self confidence. (Though there was one self-diagnosed aspie who was respected)
Especially if you are less than 25. (You know : you are a teenager... or a young person and you feel insecure, etc).

There is also a competition between Aspies sometimes. You know the whole "who suffers the most ?" (sounds like "who has the biggest penis ?") and obviously, self-diagnosed are always considered as a joke since they do not have a diagnosis to prove that they suffer.

By the way, I have read the blog of an autistic girl who was diagnosed during adulthood and many people think she is not really autistic because she was not diagnosed as a child, they say she has lied to the specialists. So, even having a diagnosis does not help.

I think some people just want to think they are rare and unique in their suffering or differences. I mean, one of the argument is "you do not understand how disabled we are and how hard it is for us to adapt even though we are intelligent."
Another problem is that AS was rather unknown before (which is why many people have not been diagnosed of course) so people get the feeling that there are more and more people who claim to have AS or think they may have it.
It is the same with Learning Disorders or ADHD and Bipolar Disorder apparently. And since statistically, it is supposed to be rare (well, it all depend on the statistics you read), they feel that it's becoming a fad or a popular things (or an epidemy).

I have never seen anyone trolling on a forum and justify it by the fact that they have Autism, but it does not surprise me since many people who did not want to write properly used to say they had dyslexia.

Does anyone else see the irony of this partitioning of the community into official and unofficial? This feels so much like my school years where there is an in crowd and an out crowd. Imagine that. Aspies that want to have their own clique.

This is sooooo NT.

It's human actually. We are always categorizing things : humans - animals (though we are animals) - objects. There are categories of objects, categories of vegetals, categories of animals and apparently the human mind does not like things that can't be put into clear defined categories.

It is a way to understand and analyze the world. There is a difference between scientific categorizing and the more unofficial one like in school, one is governed by facts and logic, the other by feelings I guess, I do not know (I lack this tendency to put people into categories in real life, I try to through analysis but it does not really work and to me labels do create a category) but it seems to be in the human nature to put things into categories.

I have the feeling that some people use these categories to identify people and think that it's the meaning of "identity". Just try to tell someone that you do know what is your identity and wait for their answers :

"You are D., twin sister of D. (yes my parents are very imaginative), daughter of A. and N., your family name is ..., you are dyspraxic, white, blue-green eyed, female, have these qualities in my opinion... what is so hard about that ?"

Well, those are just categories, not identity. But most people confuse the two concepts because we cannot see identity as something else than what our language allows us to say.

Yesterday, while I was coughing to death (exageration) in my bed, I though that no matter how disabled we are, we are all humans and everyone is different and unique (which is highly oxymoronic and interesting). We put individuals into categories but that mean nothing really... well, in society, it can at least be useful to be helped, but in reality, it does not tell us who we are since there are no two individuals who are identical, no matter which category you use.

Autism. Everyone who is on the autistic spectrum share characteristics with other autistics, but that does not make them the same person. That's the problem with categories, but they still exist and tend to "define" someone and make them belong to something.

Well, we're gregarious animals, no matter how asocial we could be.