Social Skills Training for Adults

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Well..... Interesting and equally frustrating session today. First the interesting. The biggest AH HAH moment of the session was at the end of the session when I was attempting to NOT have a full blown melt-down (I had just thrown my cards down and with much anger told him just exactly how stupid this conversation was and how I could no longer do it) He allowed me some breaths and then he said that he actually felt closer to me after the small talk exchanges we just had. I just looked at him annoyed... WTF exactly is that supposed to mean?? He explained that he actually had an emotional "feel good" about the conversation we had. I could not believe my ears. I challenged him to repeat what he had said and then told him that I felt he was lying. There is no way that made sense.

But after I got out of the session when I had some moments to myself it actually did make sense. NT's do feel good about this sort of communicating. I noticed on the few times I have been able to step up to it a little bit this past week. They actually respond. My Mother was very happy. She did not say that she was happy but her voice showed it. The same response came from the other people I talked to when I could stay engaged and pull it off. They were responsive to this. Holy CRAP really!! !??? To me the conversation this coach and I just had was completely insipid, random and totaly exhausted me. He, on the other hand, claimed he learned a new restaurant to try and got a "good" emotional feeling from the ordeal. What kind of bullsheet is this? sigh....

After the session t took me a good 10 minutes of sitting on the sidewalk by my car to calm down enough to get in my car. I wanted to hit something so badly in that office and as I left my head was completely fuzzy.

The weird thing about all of this is that I walked in there pretty "okay". Noises where not bothering me so much and I did not even feel as much anxiety. When he handed me the cards for the game, I did not have a gut-ache like last week.

This time he started out talking about how small talk makes people feel at ease with one another and how it will help me to start with small talk before I give presentations or otherwise talk about the "meat" of the matter. I immediately flashed back to a pretty important visit with my key stakeholder customer yesterday. I did ZERO small talk with him (or close to zero). I just dove in to my presentation. The Doctor asked me if the customer flew in for this meeting and I said he had. He asked me if I knew anything about the trip he just took or otherwise anything about the guy and I had to reply that I knew nothing. I mean I honestly did not ask him anything. So.... our "game" of small talk was about him being me and I being the customer and he demonstrated how it is that I could have opened the converstaion with some better "at-ease" sort of things. He taught me that one of the "polite" things to do when someone travels to meet you is to ask them how their trip was. So our first conversation was rather short and revolved around the trip.

I was actually a bit better this time and we went through a goodly number of cards. This converstaion was a little easier for me than the random conversations we had about the Japan thing and other topics. It was easier for me to talk without detail about flying than nutrition like the first week. When it was over, I was pretty content with the job we did even though it was far from "smooth" or natural. Then he came up with the scenario that the power suddenly went out in the meeting where I was presenting and we had about 10 min to kill before the tech fixed the power. Again I was the customer and this time the subject was on places to eat in Portland. Again I did pretty well at this game compared to the previous weeks but after about 10 minutes he was still going on and on about restaurants and food and I was waaaaaay tired of the whole thing and I finally threw down my cards in frustration and let out my "feelings" a little.

I RARELY ever have anything that resembles that sort of loss of control. Normally I just have shutdown incidents but this was a full blown rage sort of thing that was boiling in me. If he had made the wrong move or statement it may have gone off. It was so close. Fortunately I was able to breathe through it until I could get out of there and go sit outside for a little while. I am so freak'n exhausted right now.

Still I think I learned enough to actually make even better progress these next weeks. I don't have to do this for 40 min at a time. I need to get smooth and do it for 5 minutes here and 10 minutes there.

Last edited by kfisherx on 02 Apr 2011, 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

Felt closer to you because of the meltdown, or because of the enforced small talk!?!?!

Either way it's weird. I actually did used to know a woman who would induce meltdowns in autistic people (it was in her nature... she read so much into people's words and actions that she could induce meltdowns in people who never otherwise had ever had one, literally... and yet so much believed herself better able than average to communicate with autistic people that she wrote a book on it) and then insist that these were wonderful emotional breakthroughs and that she felt so much closer to us now, could see into our souls, etc. Most of us avoided her after that point, because it was just... gah it was bad. I remember a conversation once where I watched an autistic woman keep saying to her, "I need to hang up, I don't have much more money on my cell phone, and I really need it for emergencies" over and over and over again and this person utterly refused to take her literally to the point she eventually apologized profusely and said she was going to have to hang up on her, and then did... and then for the next fifteen minutes the nonautistic woman kept trying to call her back. (headdesk)

Holy Crap! This thread has been ongoing since February, and I somehow missed it. How did that happen? This is, to me, the most interesting, informative and exciting discussion I have seen on here. I just read the entire thread, and learned a great deal - both about social niceties, and about myself. SO MUCH of what has been said is enlightening to me that I am - honestly - near tears from the impact.

kfisherx - thank you for starting this conversation and sharing your struggle.

To all who have contributed, thank you. Please, PLEASE keep this thread going.

Sorry for the confusion, I edited the story to be more clear I think. It was specifically because of the small talk in his words. He claimed that he got an emotional charge out of learning something about me. I was in such disbelief. He did not learn ANYTHING about me. All he learned is what places I typically ate. How that turns into "learning about" someone is so beyond me that I really cannot explain it. He suggested that I might have received a benefit from learning about some of the places he goes. I confessed that I did not even listen to his repsonses and furthermore that I did not even care. (I may have actually been somewhat rude at this point actually due to my anger at the whole thing) But honestly it is hard for me to imagine that I might care about something so stupid about another human being as their favorite place to eat. A funny aside to this story is that I left this session and went to our ASAN meeting where I shared this learning with that group of about 20 adults. Most of them had the same reaction RE this as I did. One woman (similar age to me) got huge eyes and kept looking at me for the "April Fools" punchline. This whole journey so far has been so surreal. I have more to add to this session but am off to Seattle to support my football team in their first season pre-game.

Last edited by kfisherx on 02 Apr 2011, 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thank you for reading and for commenting. I started this thread so that I could articluate and revisit the sessions but more for others to get something of value from the experimentation. So far it seems to be paying off at least in some ways. Please feel free to "Chime In" whenever you get the urge.

BTW: The name of the red cards are "Chime In" so those words sort of crack me up when I see them or type them anymore.

Felt closer? From a conversation in which he learned nothing about you personally?Perhaps a restaurant recommendation says something but enough to constitute an affectionate feeling?

It's odd because the only thing I have really learned about small talk is that you can let your partner ramble on with only a few nods and 'umhmmm's and a few other affirmations that you are listening and they are happy. It's just odd that they teach this back and forth when people in general don't seem to actually want it. Maybe I'm just meeting all the wrong people?

Maybe it's just a matter of building up stamina... I mean, just like exercise, the more you do it the more muscle memory you build and the easier and more automatic it becomes, right? Maybe if you can focus on the exercise in a bit of a detached way, you can build up your skills without the emotional backlash? I dunno... I use a 'buying a car' analogy myself. When I meet someone new, in the middle of small talk I remind myself that it's just like the initial phases of buying a car... you need to walk around it, kick the tires, ask the salesman questions about its history, past performance, past owners, etc... Meanwhile, the other person is doing the same even if we are only discussing the weather.

Then again, it hasn't worked for me. I may never understand what invisible coding people are reading in small talk. Apparently, whatever my code says is unappealling.

What I've noticed about small talk (actually, also had explained to me at some point), is that people who do it are exchanging all these feelings and stuff. It's like the topic isn't as important as the emotional back-and-forth. But I always assumed people would only get something out of it if both of them really felt that way, I'd never imagine someone would feel an emotional connection from someone faking it, that's just so weird.

Improbable is a good word.

If you are 'faking it' then they are simply projecting something that isn't actually there and reacting to their own projections as some sort of information about you.

That's kind of disturbing.

In the scheme of 'disorders' THAT seems alot more disordered than anything we have going on...

Story of my life, even among autistic people.

Well, one of the things it communicates is "I am interested in you and would like to get to know you better", or at least "you don't disgust me so much that I am going to refuse to talk to you, even if we don't have much in common" That is something worth communicating, and it would be awkward to communicate it directly.

Guys... This stuff is real. I am sitting in a restaurant in Kent WA right now. My team plays a team up here in 5 hours. So am taking the opportunity to watch people (I have been doing this the past few weeks as well btw). There was a guy sitting at the table just 10 or so feet from me alone. Two people walked in (man and woman) and they met up with him. The lone man is here on business and is in a suit and has paperwork. The couple look casual in jeans/slacks and also somewhat affluent. They sit at the lone man's table and the small talk began. There was the normal pleasantries that none of us can really avoid and then the man in the business suit started talking about something. (I could not hear it exactly but deduced it wasn't business related because they were not serious) The man and woman maintained eye contact with the business man and they both sent him a lot of Body Language that signaled they were listening. They both also "Chimed Into" the discussion. There was a shedload of nuance going on. When I first queried this Doctor about social skills training he mentioned to me that the nuance makes this a 1:1 sort of teaching thing. I am starting to comprehend this a little bit now I think.

Also another AMAZING little thing. My neighbor came over to my house before I left on my roadtrip. She and I have known each other for over 20 years and quite honestly when she comes over to do "chit chat", I never really listen to her. Today I pushed my computer away and sat across from her and deployed some of the "Body Language" stuff I learned a few weeks ago in the 4 hour class plus some of the "Chime In" stuff. Somewhere in the conversation MID-SENTENCE (I swear this is true) she looks at me and says, "You are actually looking at me!" It was a happy statement and a surprised one. Then she said, "It really feels like you are listening." She quickly added that she knows I always listen to her in the way that I do listen and that she did not mean that statement as an insult. I smiled huge and told her it was the "tricks" I was learning. She then laughed and said asked me to not do it too much because it was sort of freaking her out. I asked her if I was doing something wrong and she said not at all but that she and I had 20 years of communicating the other way and this was a big enough change that it made her feel self-conscious. We both got a big chuckle out of that but then I asked her to very specifically tell me about the feeling/emotions that she felt from that. She confirmed there was a "connectedness" and a "good/warm" feeling tied to my actions. This ALL while I was sitting there thinking about all the stuff I had to do to get ready for my trip. I did not even hear what she was saying on any significant level. Wow....

Holy crapola this is HUGE!! Just because I do not care or understand this stuff doesn't mean that others do not. I have to wrap my brain around all of this. Seriously, it isn't all that hard. Tiny little actions = BIG returns on investments. These NT's are so easy to please. LOL!! !! I am now thinking to my Mother and my relationship and the actions I can now take to help her feel better about things. I believe that in a few months, I will be able to go visit her and recipriocate on her emotional level even if I don't "feel" it. I imagine that will be a really BIG thing for her.

So the good Doctor told me to make sure that I am "good" to myself with all of this and to not expect to get everything overnight given my 47 years of ingrained behavior and he also made sure that I understood it was my right to box all this information up and put it away until I saw him again. He also stressed yet again that this information was for me to decide to use or not use. When and where I wanted. I like that about him. He also said that he does not do formal DX as he doesn't like labels or putting people in boxes. I like that too about him though I am very glad my other guy was honest enough to call it like he saw it too as having the label really helps me to exercise the brain plasticity.

OMG... Just noticed. The threesome at the table are done with business with the couple signing some papers and they are all back to small talk again. UNfrockingbelievable!!

My God!

You usually seem quite reserved in your posts, but in this one you're positively giddy! It's great to hear that you're seeing results already.

Yeah, it's great you're getting results.

I find it very strange when people say they've made a connection. Most of the time I have no idea what they mean, and when I feel like I am emotionally invested in a conversation, they rarely say this. This probably says a lot about how I interact with people.

That's so interesting. I can almost see his viewpoint. I do get an emotional charge out of a good conversation, even if it is over something trivial. It's just that unless the topic is something that I find interesting, I can't keep my mind on the conversation or on the person who I'm talking to. It sounds like he finds the emotional content -- whatever that means -- is interesting by itself. That seems quite incomprehensible to me.

This is all quite interesting to me. Thank you for sharing it.

To be perfectly fair I don't get it either except on a word level. That said now that I know the rules and am open to the fact that this isn't stupid (to them) I can see that this Dr speaks truth. I can also see how this is going to really help me. I don't fear the burnout anymore even though this really pushes me. I have control when to use it whereas before I was completely oblivious. BIG difference. Every change begins with awareness.

Now that I am actually home and can take some time, I want to address some of the things being said as per my understanding of this from my sessions....

So the word, "emotion" is interesting in the context of the conversation because I am used to being so far removed from the emotions of people that I see around me that I really have learned to accept that when someone is having an "emotion" that there really is something there TO THEM. I have an understanding of Happy, Sad, Angry and Afraid. Beyond that things are very "fuzzy" for me in comprehension. The word he used beyond "emotion" was "connectedness" which is exactly the word my neighbor said, "Yes" to when I asked her if she felt it. He explained to me at the beginning of the session that when NTs get together they do "small talk" in order to have a feeling of "ease" with one another. It is sort of like a "test" that they do of the water before "jumping in" the pool. Talking to someone in this "small talk" way allows them to see if the other is "friendly", "easy to talk to" and establishing these things up front will ultimately set the tone for the "meat" of the converstation.

Let's say that you are a candidate going for a job interview and upon meeting your prospective employer, he does the hand shake thing, takes you back to the interviewing room and then says something like, "I had a crappy day so let's get this over with." That preamble to the interview itself sets the "tone" of the entire interview because I can assure you that you will feel like the interview is quite possibly aslso crappy if that ever happened. Some people will be more affected by this scenario than others and such as it is with small talk. When you first meet someone, you may want nothing more than to get to one of your "obsession subjects" or to run away as a fast as you can. NTs apparently need this little "preamble" time to get comfortable. Best case without it is a feeling of "neutral" which is how I tend to operate at my job. I take control of the meeting, and direct the talk straight to my presentation. Then I let my "work" do my talking. Temple recommends this strategy as well btw so there is value in that too just as this coach keeps reminding me.



Depends... While a LOT of the stuff I am talking about here is actually pretty interesting and even applicable it is also pretty specific. When I am forced to do "small talk" with people in my peer group, friends or people younger than me, I can get away with the "ask question and nod strategy" to a large degree. I do this because it is the only way I can keep myself from getting into trouble in those situations. The place where it gets specific is that I want to step it up a notch and beat them at their own game even. I want to be able to give them what they need up front so that my stellar work now is a reflection of my real abilities instead of something that masks my disabilities.

It is no longer good enough that I hear my boss's boss say, "Karla is weird but I don't care because she does good work". I just want to hear, "Karla does great work"

Subtle but significant...

I also used to be of the mind that most people hated small talk because that is what all my NT friends say. BUT (and this is a big one) even though they claim to "hate" it they sure as heck know how to do it when the time comes for it. The realization that this stuff is "natural" to most people and even desired is a BIG learning for me.



I commented to him in my last session that even though I blew out after 20-25 min that is WAY longer than I will likely ever have to do this in a "normal" scenario. He agreed and also told me that NTs get their full of it too. Most of the time, that is when you see them look over across the room and say something to the effect that they have to leave or that they see someone else. Those are mini-NT-small-talk-meltdowns.

Last edited by kfisherx on 03 Apr 2011, 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.