Why are all of you so defeatist?

Post Reply New Topic

See, what Verivandi is talkin about is on an entirely different scale from what you experienced. ADHD kids are given such a small amount (In general), that if you didn't know they were ADHD, you wouldn't know they were on it even if you observed them for days (And somehow missed the fact that they were poppin the pills at regular intervals). What this boils down to, is that yes, Its true that Amphetimines cause some really nasty problems for people, in big enough doses. BUT, in smaller doses those issues take so long to develop, that the gain from taking them in the first place outweighs the risk of the eventual long term effects.... So lets say Child A starts taking it at 8 years Old right? As a Result hes able to pay attention in class, do better academically, and have a better life. Theres even a chance that by the time hes 20 or so (Or before even), he won't need the amphetamines anymore anyway. But lets just say he doesn't.... Lets say he stays on em till hes 30. And by age 70 hes having liver problems as a result of the damage that he accrued due to the Amphetamines. How do we know he wouldn't have had a heart attack by age 65 if he hadn't taken the drugs? Essentially it boils down to Risk vs Gain. The arguement you're making, when put into proper perspective, is really no different then Eating at McDonalds 6 times a week and buying 2 Big Macs and a Super Size Fry every time..... Everything in moderation......

Well that was kind of my point that moderation is important.....but yeah when I was in elementary school I did see some kids who probably should not have been on it because you could tell it was having negetive effects. So yeah my issuse is more with over-prescribing it or prescribing too high of a dose.

Are there any long-term studies that actually demonstrate that these medications are exceptionally dangerous for children with ADHD? I can point to studies that show they are beneficial,

Nothing is perfectly safe and I never tried to argue that it was. Every time I take a pill I'm taking risks. Every time anyone does they're taking risks. The idea is to be educated about them.

Last edited by Verdandi on 10 Jun 2011, 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

Kinda sad ain't it? The problem is though, bad parenting ain't against the law (Bar Neglect)..... And Doctors are human too. I agree that any medication used for this purpose needs to be monitered (And I just have to tsk a little at you here, but at least you didn't keep it up), but the question of how to do that in an effective way that doesn't tread on peoples rights to get the drug for those children that need it is a real stumper that our government and medical industry has yet to solve (the very fact that you were able to get some is proof of this)......

Until then, my advice to you (unasked for I know), would be that, if you ever go into the medical proffession and study psych long enough to be come a psychologist, be VERY VERY careful who you write Prescriptions to, and until then be a bit more mindful of what people are saying about these drugs, and why they're saying it.

I know they are benificial for some, and I do not oppose the use in those cases...I just think it is over-prescribed sometimes which bothers me. I think I would be worse off if my parents had listened to the teachers who thought I should be put on that and taken me to an appointment to check for ADD or ADHD because yes I did exibit symptoms but I still did well enough in class, so there was a high chance I would have been misdiagnosed and had it prescribed...luckily they didn't.

I am not sure whether it's over-prescribed.

But if that is your concern I have no idea why we had that digression. All I was saying was that behavioral therapy without medication historically has a terrible outcome for children with ADHD, while therapy with medication tends to have fairly good outcomes.

I certainly wasn't advocating prescribing stimulants on demand or to anyone who doesn't have a condition that stimulants can improve.

This will be my last post for tonight, BUT, if I may be so bold......

The reason the digression occured, was really a simple misunderstanding, and a lack of clarification ^^;. As is often the case with Forum Discussions.

Sweetleaf had a personal experience with the drug which ended rather badly, and as such that colored his perspective of the entire drug and its use. Coupled with the knowledge that there are definitely kids on it that probably shouldn't be, I get the idea that hes probably always come down a little hard on the thought of giving kids Adderall and the like for ADHD. As was his initial response in this thread.

Verivandi, having nothing but good experiences with adderall, and knowing people that have had issues where they wouldn't be able to function without it, you rose to its defense. A noble pursuit, as the betterment of mankind is really, i believe, the goal both of you were seeking.

The Problem was that both of you made general statements. Overly broad on the topic in general, and too narrowly focused on retorting to the other. There was no room for either of you to ask the other for clarification, and neither of you took it upon yourself to ask for clarification.

Suffice it to say you both had noble reasons. And I doubt either of you have ever taken a debating course, or tried to learn the best tactics for pulling apart the reasons why people are making the statements/arguments they are. In the end you both have valid points, and are right. It just boiled down to understanding both the others, and your own, perceptions of the discussion ^^;. All I can say is, ask more questions in future until you're sure you understand the others point of digress/view.

Thanks for reading if you have

Edited for the reasons given in my next post.

Last edited by Aldran on 10 Jun 2011, 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sweetleaf is a woman.



Actually, I've had no experiences with Adderall. I'm taking Ritalin, and I am aware of positive and negative experiences with these medications, which is why I directly referred to changing dosages or switching to different medications. There are several different stimulants prescribed to treat ADHD, and while one might be a poor choice, others may very well work better.

For what it's worth, ADHD is one of my interests, and I've spent perhaps more time than necessary researching ADHD itself, available treatment options and their efficacy, and typical criticisms against the validity of both. I do not argue from strictly personal experience unless I specify that it is personal experience.



My statements were based on information I've researched directly as well as experiences people I know have described, not generalizations. I wasn't arguing based on feeling but on factual information. I assume Sweetleaf was arguing from facts she had available as well, as she quoted some of it for her responses to me.



Well,

1) This is a forum. We're not exactly working according to Robert's Rules of Order or formal debate rules. What you see in one particular thread may not reflect everything there is to know about a person. Things can get intense, although I am grateful they don't often become personal (although it's ugly when it does). Sometimes things get messy.

2) On a related note, I am trying to reconcile your perceptions of my motivations and actions with my actual motivations and actions. One of the reasons I like this forum so much is that in general people here don't typically try to interpret between the lines like this. I'm not really sure how to respond to this, because I feel like I'm in a position to defend or refute something I never tried to say or do in this thread. This kind of discussion, where I'm told what I was thinking, actually gives me a headache because I feel like I have to start over and explain what I was actually thinking, which also happens to be what I actually wrote. I understand interpretations differ, and I mean when I first started posting here I did something similar with kfisherx, so I'm not calling you out for something that never happens otherwise. I just find this kind of discussion pretty uncomfortable.

I'm not going to waste energy trying to predict or perceive someone else's perspective that I can't discern from their posts when I can just ask them, which is why I asked Sweetleaf when I did. I did not see the point of asking prior because I was responding to Sweetleaf's arguments. Neither of us was actually preventing the other from asking for clarification as far as I can tell - I was not, as far as I was aware, confused by Sweetleaf's statements, I simply disagreed with many of them - hence my explicit statements disagreeing with them. If I had seen something that seemed unclear to me, I would have asked for clarification. I rarely hesitate to do so.

It may be that you perceive this post as argumentative as well. If so, I don't know what to say. I'm trying to clarify and explain.

Aldran,
Normally I don't intrude on other people's conversations but Verdandi is one of the best debaters on WP. Infact she is probably one of the most logical and well read person I have ever come across.

the fact that im employed, have a loving, and supporting family, and my interests keep me from being a defeatist. If I lost 2 or more, I would probably adopt the mentality of one... or in other words, I'm thankful to be in the situation that I'm in and make the best of it everyday. I'm not where I imagined I'd be though, that's for sure.

Hmmmmm, well, I apologize for what misreadings I have made. And I can see I shouldn't have written that post the way I did, particularly when I haven't been here but for a couple weeks.

That said, I will say that I didn't think I was getting that personal to be honest. I saw something that I thought I could expand on, and I guess I shouldn't have.

Though I would like to point a few things out.

First is that gender can be incredibly difficult to figure out online when people don't make it obvious, and in the short time I've been here I have never seen a direct reference to Sweetleaf's Gender. I apologize for guessing wrongly. I will also say that this isn't the first time I've guessed wrongly, and at one point even lost a job over an incorrect guess. Suffice it to say that Ive found that just asking "Are you male or female?", or anything along the lines of "How would you prefer to be addressed", has had just as negative consequences for me as well....... So I guess instead, because its far more direct by giving the person a chance to correct me and get it out of the way.

Second is that, one does not have to have direct experiences with something to have had any experience with something. Having experiences through friends, is still experience, and they were positive enough to mention here and use in defense of the use of the item at the center of the discussion to begin with. That said, without having seen evidence to the contrary, I surmised from the accurate descriptions of its use that you were knowledgable about it, and though Ill admit I read something you said incorrectly (In that it seemed you had had some first hand experience with Adderall), I do believe my overall impression in that you know your stuff, as it were, when it came to the drug itself was correct, both from an extended amount of knowledge (When compared to most people, up to and including casual users), and from Experiences apparently gleaned from friends.

This affirms my last paragraph, to me anyway, and starts this one. The last bit. I don't believe, nor did I accuse you of, being general in your knowledge. Quite the opposite, Ive actually been rather impressed by your knowledge and willingness to use it, in this thread and many others Ive seen since Lurking here. What I DID say, was that you made "General Statements", which I will clarify. The issue that caused, and perpetuated sweetleaf and your's discussion, was a lack of understanding that came about as a result, in my opinion, from a lack of understanding, as a result of statements that, though tailored to respond directly to the other's statements directly, failed to get to the core issue. Statements like this were pulled from general knowledge from your own lives (Both from experiences and reading, hence why I called them "General"), but were too specificly tailored to the last post to leave room for the other to gain understanding about where either of you were coming from. I tried to explain that, but obviously didn't do a very good job.

That said, I want to iterate that Im not trying to attack anyone here. A misunderstanding occurred (Actually several), and I just have a thing about misunderstandings..... Sometimes I make the misunderstanding that understanding is easier to attain between people then it actually is. Hence Ive learned to ask alot of questions, but as often as not forget that alot of people won't do that. This is my problem, and Im sorry for afflicting you all with it.

I will also apologize for speculating about what you may or may not have been feeling at the time. That was a speculation that did my post no credit. I will remove it. I will say that I meant no harm by it, nor did I mean to suggest that that was the only possible occurrence, but I should have posited it in a better way, or not included it at all. I will say though that it came about as a result of the observation that the both of you, though continuing from your own knowledge bases, could neither seem to leave it alone, nor understand the other. Therefore my speculation was a result of trying to guess your motivation, I used my past experience, and that was my faux pas.

Next to address. I did not mean to suggest we should be using Robert's Rules of Order, which are more for large gatherings of people in a single place then written text in BBS Forum Format. By an internet forum's very construction 1/2 of Robert's Rules become superfluous anyway. I don't mind intensity, but messy is something I try to keep from occuring, and I hope my actions tend to the opposite (IE not messy). Though I do seem to have done quite a job here haven't I? lol.

I won't apologize for how you feel about what I wrote Vervandi. But I will apologize that I was unable to write it in a better way anyway. The reasons being that, being another human, I can't be responsible for your own emotions, but that being a human you interacted with, I am responsible for writing what caused those emotions, and I do care about how Im read and what effect reading me causes, under certain conditions (Ill leave off on explaining this for the time being if you don't mind. Suffice it to say I care in this instance). It was not my intention to cause feelings of uncomfortability, or really any negative emotions or unhappiness, or w/e else. My intention had merely been to point out the misunderstanding I saw occuring in the discussion.

I will take this opportunity to explain what I saw here. I could /quote large amounts of this, but it'll be far easier to just go look at it yourself then try to navigate a wall of /quotes.
Several people came out against using Medications for children with ADHD (Not directly, but seemed to suggest that it was a bad thing in general) back on ~page 2 of this thread.

You Vervandi rose to the defense of using medications in general.

Page 3 is where the real issues started arising. Sweetleaf came up and made a Single Line post that Behavioral Therapy might be good for kids with ADHD.

Which you refuted Vervandi.

At which point Sweetleaf came out and posited that it would be better then using medications in situations where people have bad reactions. Some other people came out and supported this view.

Again, you rose to the defense Vervandi and pointed out that bad reactions are very infrequent.

Sweetleaf came out and listed the negative reactions associated with Adderall, and amphetamines in general, and even touched on the previous Tylenol comparison. This, and the preceeding 2 lines is where the misunderstandings started, IMHO.

This is where I got into it. I had guessed, correctly I would point out, that Sweetleaf had had a personal experience of a more negative connotation to it, and speculated to myself that it was *probably* outside of a prescription scenario. So I started asking questions. Ive learned that its exceedingly rare to see adamant views posited without there being more to the story, particularly in the face of accepted practice, or scientifically provable data.

You responded Vervandi to Sweetleaf in the same context you'd been using the entire time to make your points. That of using it in controlled circumstances as a valid way of treating symptoms.

Sweetleaf's next post was the most telling about where the misunderstanding occured...... 4 days experience? Couldn't sleep the whole time? No doctor is ever going to prescribe that much..... Ever.....

Vervandi, your next post was pretty well thought out, but it had a tone to it that I think perpetuated the misunderstanding. Ill quote this here because this is where everything could have turned around:
- Vervandi, This thread, Page 4, 10th Post down (Wish the forum #'d Posts, le sigh).

This is significant because, IMHO, you said it under the pretext of prescription settings. The whole post was written in that context from the way I read it. There was nothing wrong with it on its own either. You state valid points, under this one context of prescription scenarios. But the whole reason for the digression was that Sweetleaf's experience were outside this context......

Sweetleaf responded with valid points about the drug, particularly when used outside of a prescription setting, or used incorrectly IN a prescription setting.

This is where I started to get a little more direct in calling Sweetleaf's point out. IE, I addressed what she was saying directly. Things carried on a bit, but in the end we all understood a little better (I think), until I made the last post I did in this thread, lol.

I never accused you Vervandi of being confused by Sweetleaf's posts, words, or arguments. I did posit that you misunderstood them however. By simple virtue that you never addressed the context in which she was talking about them. Its not really a big deal either. I just hate misunderstandings (Not the people that misunderstand mind you, unless its willful or intentional which I am NOT accusing you of at all, quite the opposite, you seem the type to me that wants to understand things they don't). I don't know why you didn't seem to understand that sweetleaf's experiences were so different from your own/friends, but that is what was at the heart of this entire dialogue.

Nor did I accuse either of you of preventing the other from asking more questions. But neither of you did actually ask the other to clarify the others point during the majority of the digression. More importantly, neither of you asked the questions that would have led to an earlier understanding of each others points, which was my entire point by suggesting to "ask more questions".

Finally, no, I do not perceive you or any of your posts to be argumentative. If you care to know, I actually find them rather refreshing. Its rare to find someone willing to discuss things regardless of emotional baggage. I have found a few here and there on the net willing and genuinely capable of doing it, but its very very rare. The ability in my mind is something to be appreciated .

Thank you for reading if you have, and I sincerely hope this post clears some things up.

Aldran, when in doubt you can click on a poster's name and you'll see their profile - the gender is specified there

Aldran, it's all fine. I wasn't trying to make you responsible for my emotions, I was trying to explain my reaction to what you posted. I am sorry that it came across that way.

Anyway, I probably should have mentioned that user profiles here specify male or female, which is how I make sure I use the correct pronouns, or at least most nearly correct pronouns.

Ah ha! Thank you for telling me that Sallamandrina and Verdandi. Different boards always seem to have different settings ^^;. And I again apologize for getting it wrong. The job I lost due to guessing wrong was over an incident where I guessed wrong to her face...... Boy was she unhappy..... But it wasn't a very good job for me either, and I dont miss it.

Thanks

You never grew up in my family. It was, at least for me, abusive. You live 55 years with that garbage and see how you feel.

Wow, that hideous avatar says a lot about you!