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Artros
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09 Aug 2011, 5:07 pm

Verdandi wrote:
Artros wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
Artros wrote:
A month or two ago, I was at a meeting for sub-Saharan immigrants. When I was thinking about this issue yesterday night it struck me how much their complaints and arguments were like the ones I read here. They did not understand the way the Dutch job market works and felt that the Dutch did not accommodate their needs or their culture. Because they viewed things differently, they would make social gaffes and they wouldn't get hired. The regular Dutch did not trust them and discriminated against them and did not value them for the contributions they could make, but rather for their skin colour.

So, logically, being an immigrant counts as a disability in the job market.


No, there are similarities, but discrimination is not the same as a disability, although disability often leads to discrimination. I think a better word is disadvantage, as well as discrimination, which applies in both cases.


Actually, it's not just a matter of discrimination. It's a matter of failed communication as much as anything. These people had no idea how the Dutch people work and how to fit in. Discrimination is only part of it.


So it's entirely up to them to know how the Dutch people work and how to fit in? No Dutch people need to make any effort to work with them? That's where the discrimination comes in - someone is at a disadvantage for a particular reason, and the people who lack that disadvantage don't account for it.

Anyway, my point is that they do not have a disability because they are from a different culture. It's two different things with somewhat similar outcomes. Comparisons like this are actually pretty bad because of how it fails to account for people dealing with both issues - say, being both autistic and an immigrant.


Actually, I totally agreed with these people as well: the Dutch should make an effort to understand other people's cultures as well as their own. The problem is that they don't.

My observation was mostly in the line of yours: how similar an outcome the two characteristics (different culture and autism) had. It shows how little people want to consider and accommodate those who are different. I would say it also casts a bit of a different light on the view of autism as a disability, in the social sense. For example, I know there's a Swiss company somewhere which almost exclusively hires Aspies. In that company, being NT would probably be a hindrance to social behaviour.


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TPE2
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09 Aug 2011, 6:47 pm

SammichEater wrote:
As awareness increases, I wouldn't be surprised if AS will be taken off of the DSM.


Seeing from another point of view, the only reason because it is awareness about AS it is because AS is in the DSM. If AS was taken off the DSM (independently of the reasons - merging with autism, recognition that is not a disorder, etc*), the concept of "Asperger" will disappear from the collective memory in one generation (and a person with your - or mine - profile will simply be considered an "introvert").

*I think the proposed DSM5 is a mix of the two; in theory it is a merging of AS and autism, but the proposed criteria requires more severity than the present criteria for AS, and the "rationale" and the some preparation papers made clear insinuations that they think that AS is overdiagnosed.



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09 Aug 2011, 7:09 pm

[double post]



Last edited by TPE2 on 09 Aug 2011, 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Verdandi
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09 Aug 2011, 7:10 pm

TPE2 wrote:
*I think the proposed DSM5 is a mix of the two; in theory it is a merging of AS and autism, but the proposed criteria requires more severity than the present criteria for AS, and the "rationale" and the some preparation papers made clear insinuations that they think that AS is overdiagnosed.


I think the rationale has stated that the majority of people diagnosed with AS fit the criteria for autism...so most people who have been diagnosed with AS would still fit.

I don't recall reading much about AS being diagnosed except from people opposed to the changes.



SammichEater
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09 Aug 2011, 7:35 pm

The point I was trying to make is this:

We are different, only considered disabled because of the society we live in. Take a look at the very name of this website. If that doesn't get the point across, I don't know what will. Now, consider what I stated before. "As awareness increases, I wouldn't be surprised if AS will be taken off of the DSM." Why did I say this? Because if there was no discrimination against me for my aspie traits, I wouldn't have any problems.

But remember, I'm only speaking for myself here. Autism is a spectrum, and we all have different issues. Hopefully we should all be able to agree on that.


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09 Aug 2011, 7:55 pm

SammichEater wrote:
Now, consider what I stated before. "As awareness increases, I wouldn't be surprised if AS will be taken off of the DSM." Why did I say this? Because if there was no discrimination against me for my aspie traits, I wouldn't have any problems.


Yes, and my statement was that [some] people who are labeled as AS, including myself do have problems beyond discrimination. If AS (whether itself or as a generic ASD) was not viewed as a disorder, then we would still be having these problems even if you wouldn't. While I'm glad for you that you don't have higher functioning difficulties saying these criteria aren't a disorder or disability does have affect on both of us - for you its positive, for me its negative.

I have no idea whether the potential move to only have Autism Spectrum rather than separate diagnoses will have any affect on these, but it might. I know I prefer the DSM-5 criteria over the DSM-IV criteria for myself. I don't think a label change will make a huge difference, though it might change the view of people more that I'm realizing. I think I like the change though - the criteria makes more sense and splitting us into separate labels isn't really helping us, just making the system more complicated. Everything I'm getting help with currently is based off of "autism spectrum disorder" anyways. Maybe splitting it into autism spectrum disorder and generic autism spectrum will make people as a whole happier. Because there is no question that someone who has traits should be able to associate with autism, though the distinction for impairment sufficient that there are further problems seems like it matters seeing how often these arguments seem to come up.


Callista wrote:
Disabled people can and do have strong talents.
Disability does not mean you are inferior in any way.
Disability does not make you automatically an object of pity.
Disability does not mean you need to be cured.
Disability does not make you incompetent.
Disability does not mean you cannot live on your own, have a job, fall in love, have a family, or be independent. Specific impairments can prevent those things, but disability as a whole is not at all incompatible with them.
Disability does not need to be obvious or extreme. It can be mild and invisible, too.
Disability does not mean you need to feel sorry for yourself. In fact, I recommend you do not.
Disability does not hinder your potential for happiness and satisfaction in life.
Disability does not stop you from pursuing your goals. Prejudice might, but disability will not. Whether you'll reach your goals is uncertain, but it is uncertain for everyone.


I like this list. I've been trying to figure out how to get across that in my mind ASDs are disabilities, and that it doesn't at all mean that we're lesser or that we need to be cured. This list is much more complete :)



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09 Aug 2011, 8:01 pm

SammichEater wrote:
The point I was trying to make is this:

We are different, only considered disabled because of the society we live in. Take a look at the very name of this website. If that doesn't get the point across, I don't know what will. Now, consider what I stated before. "As awareness increases, I wouldn't be surprised if AS will be taken off of the DSM." Why did I say this? Because if there was no discrimination against me for my aspie traits, I wouldn't have any problems.

But remember, I'm only speaking for myself here. Autism is a spectrum, and we all have different issues. Hopefully we should all be able to agree on that.


And the point I was making is that I would be disabled in ANY society because I can't take care of myself. So, yes, autism is a spectrum, and for many (most?) of us, it has nothing to do with society.



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09 Aug 2011, 8:15 pm

SuperTrouper wrote:
And the point I was making is that I would be disabled in ANY society because I can't take care of myself. So, yes, autism is a spectrum, and for many (most?) of us, it has nothing to do with society.


Apparently you are right, as nobody seems to agree with me. I was honestly not aware of this. I thought for sure the vast majority of WP users were on the more mild end of the spectrum. I thought for sure most of us here are either officially or unofficially diagnosed with AS specifically. AS is diagnosed mostly by social impairment, so it only made sense to me to assume that with a society geared towards the aspergic way of thinking, it wouldn't be an issue.


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09 Aug 2011, 10:56 pm

SammichEater wrote:
SuperTrouper wrote:
And the point I was making is that I would be disabled in ANY society because I can't take care of myself. So, yes, autism is a spectrum, and for many (most?) of us, it has nothing to do with society.


Apparently you are right, as nobody seems to agree with me. I was honestly not aware of this. I thought for sure the vast majority of WP users were on the more mild end of the spectrum. I thought for sure most of us here are either officially or unofficially diagnosed with AS specifically. AS is diagnosed mostly by social impairment, so it only made sense to me to assume that with a society geared towards the aspergic way of thinking, it wouldn't be an issue.


I'm diagnosed with AS, and very high-functioning, and I have problems that go beyond discrimination. It's not just "People are mean because I'm a bit weird". People are generally nice to me.


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09 Aug 2011, 10:57 pm

SammichEater wrote:
SuperTrouper wrote:
And the point I was making is that I would be disabled in ANY society because I can't take care of myself. So, yes, autism is a spectrum, and for many (most?) of us, it has nothing to do with society.


Apparently you are right, as nobody seems to agree with me. I was honestly not aware of this. I thought for sure the vast majority of WP users were on the more mild end of the spectrum. I thought for sure most of us here are either officially or unofficially diagnosed with AS specifically. AS is diagnosed mostly by social impairment, so it only made sense to me to assume that with a society geared towards the aspergic way of thinking, it wouldn't be an issue.


There seems to be some divergence in the meaning of "social" that leads to a great deal of misunderstanding. Some see "social" as the flexible cultural norms that are potentially changeable through education and awareness. But this malleable form of social information is not the issue for autistics. There are forms of information exchange that, while perhaps nominally different between cultures, are substantially the same. For example, American facial expressions have what might be considered dialectical differences from Asian, but things like disgust, joy, and anger largely carry the same visual cures across cultural boundaries. This type of social information is fully independent of the flexible, changeable social norms that some would suggest are the primary impediments towards autistic's success. I CANNOT read body language and emotion in real time and correctly attribute cause and effect. Even when I recognize an emotion, I often misinterpret the cause and what an appropriate response is. This lack of ability to recognize and process basic social information CANNOT be swept away by making the NT world understand my differences. All the awareness in the world does not allow me to communicate via a fundamental human interaction.

It is wrong to suggest that "social impairment" would not exist if only the 99% of non-autistics would learn of my plight and understand autism. The channel of communication that transmits import social information, regardless of the cultural coloring of that information, is inoperable. That channel will always be inoperable. I am impaired not because society is structured to disadvantage me, I am impaired because I cannot participate in a form of communication that is shared by the vast majority of humans.


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Verdandi
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09 Aug 2011, 11:30 pm

SammichEater wrote:
SuperTrouper wrote:
And the point I was making is that I would be disabled in ANY society because I can't take care of myself. So, yes, autism is a spectrum, and for many (most?) of us, it has nothing to do with society.


Apparently you are right, as nobody seems to agree with me. I was honestly not aware of this. I thought for sure the vast majority of WP users were on the more mild end of the spectrum. I thought for sure most of us here are either officially or unofficially diagnosed with AS specifically. AS is diagnosed mostly by social impairment, so it only made sense to me to assume that with a society geared towards the aspergic way of thinking, it wouldn't be an issue.


I am diagnosed with AS, but I suspect that a more thorough evaluation would probably get a different diagnosis.

That said: What you're describing is basically the social model of disability.

The thing about it is that having a society that accommodates disability as fully as possible does not eliminate that disability. I think it would be easier for me to get a job if autistic people were accommodated better in job interviews and the like, but I will still likely run into problems actually doing the job due to executive function issues and sensory overload.

While AS is diagnosed mostly by social impairment, most people who have it are likely to fit the criteria for ADHD and have sensory issues as well. The diagnostic criteria don't paint the full extent of impairments any given person might have.



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10 Aug 2011, 1:15 am

SammichEater wrote:
SuperTrouper wrote:
And the point I was making is that I would be disabled in ANY society because I can't take care of myself. So, yes, autism is a spectrum, and for many (most?) of us, it has nothing to do with society.


Apparently you are right, as nobody seems to agree with me. I was honestly not aware of this. I thought for sure the vast majority of WP users were on the more mild end of the spectrum. I thought for sure most of us here are either officially or unofficially diagnosed with AS specifically. AS is diagnosed mostly by social impairment, so it only made sense to me to assume that with a society geared towards the aspergic way of thinking, it wouldn't be an issue.


I feel like though I can complete basic things like eating, drinking, showering and ect on my own often enough...even if I lived in an AS society I would still have trouble communicating with people. the lack of eye contact, slow processing, not really being able to read body language in conversation, forgetting what I was talking about mid-sentence and other things would still be present...being around a bunch of people with the same disorder would not decrease those symptoms...people might be more understanding though.



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10 Aug 2011, 1:19 am

SammichEater wrote:
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You are living in a fool's paradise.


Oh really? I was under the impression that being disabled means there's something I can't do. If I'm wrong, please let me know. Reading body language and facial expressions definitely is something I can't do as well as the average person. I would consider that to be an impairment. The other things really don't impair me, but as stated before, seem to be more of a matter of preference.


You are talking about a condition you haven't been diagnosed with. As such, you sound foolish.



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10 Aug 2011, 2:03 am

Alright, I give up. I've thrown every last bit of logic I have into this discussion and it hasn't gotten me anywhere.

Maybe you are right. Maybe I don't really have AS, but I'm on the BAP. Maybe I have more impairment than I think I do but I just don't see it. Only time will tell.


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10 Aug 2011, 3:37 am

Just because it's possible to fully accommodate an impairment doesn't mean the impairment isn't real.

I tend to agree with the statement that "most people on the spectrum have impairments that would not vanish if everyone treated them decently". While autism has a large social component, even Asperger's isn't really primarily social--it's a bunch of cognitive, neurological, information-processing traits that affect social functioning but also other things.

The very small group of Aspies that cannot also be diagnosed with classic autism (I estimate about 5-10%) may be the most likely to be primarily-social cases, because they will not have problems taking care of themselves, no history of speech delays, no problems starting or sustaining conversations, no problems with imitative play. That group, as the diagnosis is written currently, should be the only group diagnosed with Asperger's at all, which would mean that as it's written, Asperger's makes up only about 1% of the total Spectrum rather than 10%.

So, yeah, I guess if your impairment would vanish if people treated you decently, you're probably in the small minority of those diagnosed with Asperger's. But that doesn't mean you can't be diagnosed, because disability is judged by whether we're disabled in our current society, not whether we'd be disabled in some theoretical perfectly-arranged world. In a way, the disability associated with the social traits of autism isn't "NTs can't understand me," but, "I can't change my communication style well enough to let NTs in my society understand me." An NT born into a culture will pick up the culture; an Aspie will not. It's developmental, pretty much.


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10 Aug 2011, 4:27 am

SammichEater wrote:
Alright, I give up. I've thrown every last bit of logic I have into this discussion and it hasn't gotten me anywhere.

Maybe you are right. Maybe I don't really have AS, but I'm on the BAP. Maybe I have more impairment than I think I do but I just don't see it. Only time will tell.


You've kind of gotten a lot of negative responses in this thread and I feel kind of bad for you! I don't know if you're still reading this, but if you are, could I ask you a question? What made you think you had AS?

This is my reason why. If you don't feel like reading my self-indulgent nonsense, please feel free to skip. I'm placing the nonsense in a quote and bolding the important parts of what I really have to say down at the bottom.

Quote:
For me, I've always felt different from other people, but the feeling really intensified through middle school and high school when I started to really see the differences between myself and others. But all teenagers feel awkward and different, it's simply a fact of life. My incredibly NT sister and my fairly NT brother are both teenagers now and getting into that "no one understands me!" mindset. Not that I mean to belittle your feelings. I'm belittling my own, actually. I knew that all teenagers have these stereotypical teenage issues, so I decided that I wasn't going to make a fool of myself by saying that I thought I had a problem and I thought I was different when I knew everyone around me would just tell me that it was my "hormones talking."

So I kept a journal and did my "woe is me" thing there, and carried on with my life. Then between my junior and senior year, my parents got divorced. I went from being a 16 year old who didn't know how to operate a dish washer or a washing machine to a 17 year old who made sure both of her siblings made it home from school and their after school activities OK, got their homework done with them, fed them dinner, cleaned the house, and put them to bed. I'm not trying to paint a sob story here. I'm very aware that I'm lucky compared to some people. I'm only trying to illustrate that my life changed hard and fast. And this all was on top of my parents getting divorced which involved it's own struggles like watching my dad cry, learning my mom had an affair, the constant arguments, and so on. And that was compounded with the struggles every high school senior has: keeping up with school and extra curriculars, getting into college, worrying about the future, and of course maintaining a social life.

By the end of my senior year, I was in a horrible state. I'm sure the clinical term would be "depressed," but I don't like to call it that because when I think "depression" I think "locking yourself in your room and sitting under a dark cloud of listlessness, shut away from the entire world." But it wasn't like that. It was like running on auto-pilot. I felt like I was one of those bridges you make out of matchsticks in science class, and then pile on weight after weight until it snaps. I was falling and waiting to hit rock bottom, just so I'd know things couldn't get any worse. I was worn thin. I thought it was obvious that I was falling apart, but nobody seemed to notice. Not my parents because they too concerned with settling their own affairs, not my siblings because I was trying too hard to be strong for them, not my friends because (as I now know) I shut people out when things get bad instead of relying on others. I was self-destructing. I wasn't sleeping because the few hours I had alone at night were the only times I could relax. I was driving recklessly. My grades were dropping. And I kept waiting for someone to notice how bad off I was and come to my rescue, but no one ever did. The only thing I had to hold on to was the thought that I'd get to college and things would be different. It was going to be a fresh start, and things were finally going to be better.

I lost all my friends thanks to a combination of my emotional state, my AS, and the fact that I didn't have very good friends in the first place. I started college without any friends, but that was OK because this was my fresh start. My parents had finally woken up and started being parents again. I had adjusted to my new responsibilities at home and I ended up at a university that didn't make me feel like a complete loser. Things were looking up.

Then about two years later I realized I'd actually gone nearly a full year without having a conversation with anyone outside my immediate family. I mean I didn't even do small talk with my classmates. I may have said hello to people who said hello to me, but that was pretty much it. Thanks to things like limited eye contact and an inability to make small-talk, I was unintentionally scaring off the people who tried to approach me without even realizing it. In college, you don't make lunch buddies because there's hundreds of new faces every time you walk into the cafeteria. If you don't arrive with someone, you eat alone. It's like eating in a fast food restaurant. In class, you don't talk to the people who sit near you because there's no "downtime" in class. You don't sit around doing worksheets. You come in, sit down, shut up, and listen to the professor talk. Then you leave and every person in the class goes in a different direction. You don't see the same faces in the hall every day. You don't make homeroom buddies because there is no homeroom in college. You show up for class then you leave. I was a commuter student. I lived about 45 minutes away from my school because it was cheaper and my parents still needed me at home. In college, the social life isn't connected to the classes. They're two completely distinct loops that just so happen to occupy the same space. In grade school, friends just seemed to fall into my lap. It's like I was passed from friend to friend. When one person stopped being my friend, another was there to fill the void like magic. I was incredibly lucky in this regard, even if most of those friends didn't turn out to be the best of people. But in college, friends don't come to you, you've got to hunt them down and then stick them to you with an industrial adhesive.

If you go a year without speaking to someone, that's a real problem. That's a sign of a social disability. That's not just being different, that's a sign that something is definitely wrong. I didn't see it as one then, but I do now. Then, I just finally started feeling like I had to do something. It took me a year to start feeling lonely, but I finally did. And my mom was really on me about making friends to the point that I made friends up and made up pretend outings with them. I tried making friends but only succeeded in making acquaintances. I joined a greek fraternity because it was the only thing I knew that college students did. I tried joining clubs, but they were all so small it felt like walking into a closed circle of friends where there was no room for me. I magically lucked out again in winding up in a fraternity that is practically tailor-made to my AS social problems. I was literally assigned friends, and the events my fraternity does aren't purely social, but service and education themed, so they're actual events instead of parties. I sew blankets and clean up trash when I'm out with friends. It's not perfect by any means. I still struggle socially because of my AS. But now I actually have a social life.


The point I'm trying to make here is that the problems AS causes you don't have to be so incredibly obvious as extreme sensory issues or problems with school/work. I don't have sensory issues for which I need accommodations. I don't need accommodations to get through my classes. But my AS does cause me some very real problems, especially socially. But (and perhaps this is because I'm mildly affected compared to most) I think I could have gone my whole life thinking the way I did in high school, that everyone feels different and that if people don't notice I'm having a problem than I'm not. Sometimes it takes falling completely on your ass before you wake up and see you've got a real problem on your hands.

And sometimes things don't see like a real problem because you don't understand what your mistakes are and that you're making these mistakes because of a real problem that's going unaddressed.
For instance, I missed out on a great opportunity in high school because during an interview process I was asked what my plans for college were and I replied that I didn't know and that my parents probably needed me at home to watch my siblings. It never occurred to me that there was a meaning behind that question. It never occurred to me that this question was meant as an assessment of my character, so I just told the truth. Most high school students know how to sell themselves when interviewed, but the entire idea of "selling myself" is completely counter-intuitive in my eyes. This isn't a big problem, but it's a real problem because my poor interview skills caused me to miss out on some great opportunities. I once told a friend that people had a party because she wasn't at school one day because in my eyes it wasn't a big deal. I wasn't glad that she wasn't at school, so thanks to my mind-blindness I didn't understand that other people were actually glad she wasn't at school, and not just joking. I thought it was just a funny joke, so I blindly assumed that my friend would see it the same way I did. I was horribly, horribly wrong and caused some fairly severe drama among people who had to see each other for several hours each school day. This, again, is not a severe problem, but it's a real problem, one that is going to keep appearing every time I have to work with people. I went to senior prom without a date because I didn't understand when some girls came up and asked me if I'd go to prom with a certain guy, that it meant that guy actually wanted to go to prom with me and the girls were using subtext to probe me in advance on his behalf. Again, this isn't a severe problem but that doesn't make it any less real.

I think that if you do have AS, you've got regrets like this, things you wish you never would have done, things you look back on and say "how stupid was I that I didn't understand something so obvious?" And I think if you get diagnosed later in life, you're going to have all these instances where you look back and say "if only I had known about AS, I would have done things differently!" These are signs that your AS is causing you problems. It's not about wanting to change who you are. It's not about wishing you were different. It's about all those mistakes you've made and never want to make again. People with AS make social blunders. It's part of the packaged deal. And it's not always because the world doesn't understand us, sometimes it's because we don't understand the world.

Anyway, this is just what I think. I hope some of it made sense.