Suicide as an alternative option for lifelong torment.

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I do not think that is the only cause of psychological torment, it is one major cause....but either way its not the cause that matters, its how much pain/suffering it causes for the individual experiencing it. To suggest only physical pain can be unbearable is inaccurate...I think suicide kind of shows that honestly I mean if psychological pain could not be unbearable why is the risk of suicide higher for people with severe psychological disorders? maybe you've never been there or attempted but it basically comes down to being in so much pain the only option to end it seems to be death.

Also nothing you've said suggests psychological torment is not brought on by things out of ones control.....and considering environmental, genetic and social factors play a role in mental disorders/illnesses I'd say it can be brought on by factors out of ones control For instance PTSD is an easy example typically people do not choose the traumatic experience they have to get that disorder. Also it is not uncommon for kids who grow up in abusive homes to develop mental disorders due to being abused. So how exactly is psychological pain caused by things under ones control? Also no if mentally ill people had a choice to not get mentally hung up on the crap we would probably choose not to...the whole problem is its not a choice otherwise it wouldn't be a problem.

Also I could say the same about physical diseases/injuries......you cannot choose whether you have them or get them or not, but you do have a choice whether or not you let them control your life and make you miserable, but that kind of makes me sound like a jerk doesn't it?

I know exactly what Crohn's Disease is, and my aunt has it.

You didn't even answer the question so I do not know what your point is.

Your harshness is offset by how wrong you are.

What I mean is you clearly do not understand the mechanisms that drive psychological disorders, but you seem to consider yourself qualified to hold forth on how you think they work, which just so happens to align with popular assumptions about mental illness being something people can just decide to get over, or not let it bother them or control their lives.

There are many things I have a choice about with regards to the disabilities I have, but none of them include "How much they impact my life." I can't simply decide by will alone to bypass these issues. And I have tried for decades before I even understood that I was different from everyone else. It didn't do much good.

I am not trying compare distress caused by Crohn's disease to distress caused by mental illness or developmental disorders, but the reason I asked is because I wanted to know what Matt62 intended to write as what I read seemed ambiguous - that he could mean that Crohn's Disease caused him what he perceived as "real torment" vs. what he experienced from being socially isolated as a teenager, or that he could mean that the distress caused by autism is not real at all. I don't know, which is why I asked. I don't see how you can possibly explain his mindset on this, as opposed to simply continuing to explain to everyone your prejudiced and wrong ideas about mental illness.

They certainly can cause severe pain. I've been there. Emotional pain is as real as physical pain, in some ways, more problematic, and in other ways, less so. The differences between the two types of pain can't be used to rank them, though. They are just different kinds of hurt.

What I do know about pain, both physical and mental, is that people are often much more durable than they give themselves credit for. I've watched a young woman break away from her sexually abusive father and go on to become an assertive, stable mother to a child of her own. I've met people who live with chronic physical pain and still have the ability to enjoy life, just as much as I do. I've survived both physical and emotional pain in my own life. In the middle of it, you feel desperate--you think you'll do anything to make it end. Sometimes, you want out so badly that death seems like a great idea. But in those times I found that there was always some part of me that just didn't want to give up. Sometimes it was awfully quiet, but it was always there. I've heard similar things from people who have survived other sorts of pain--even from people who never or almost never have a single day free from pain--that they find ways to survive, ways to enjoy life despite it all.

And my conclusion is that people are amazingly tough--even though they often have no idea how tough they are. So don't sell yourself short. You're not dead right now, are you? And I can tell you why: You want to live. Somewhere, deep down, you haven't given up, and you don't want to.

Agreed with all of this.

I recently found a study that showed that the same neurological mechanism that activates when you experience physical pain also activates when you experience social ostracism - and it even reacts less intensely when a situation presents the possibility of social ostracism.

I think there's a lot about the neurological mechanisms that accompany physical and psychological distress we don't know yet, but I find it difficult to credit "physical pain is more valid than psychological or emotional pain." Both are terrible, in their own ways. And people live with both, in their own ways.

I also dislike the idea that acknowledging this pain is the same as "letting it rule your life." My issues have a significant impact on my life, but they don't rule it. They make a lot of things difficult that wouldn't be or more difficult than they are for others, and they influence my life a lot, but it's weird how acknowledging that as true is somehow bad, and the proper answer is apparently to simply "not let it affect me." As if I had a choice in the matter.

Well I would prefer to find other ways of reducing the pain than suicide...I know of some ways. But yeah I don't really see it as though deep down I'm striving for some great existence I feel like deep down there is nothing but an empty void that cannot be filled with anything. But yeah I guess I would prefer not to totally give up.....I don't see things improving anytime soon either.

I agree. Acknowledging it is worthwhile. Dwelling on it is not; but in order to understand and deal with a problem, you do have to acknowledge that it's there, and define it properly. If you live with any kind of pain--physical or emotional--then if you want to get on with your life, pursue the goals you want to, you have to take that pain into account, learn how to get on with your life. Ignoring it isn't going to help; it just causes burnout.

Not that you should dwell on it. That's not healthy, either. In fact, distracting yourself can be quite a healthy way to cope. What's unhealthy is being in denial, trying to pound your head against a brick wall, pretend it isn't there and hurt yourself trying to force through it, instead of measuring the wall and building a ladder that you can climb to get across it.

This aptly describes most of my adult life. I spent all that time pretending it wasn't there and trying to pound my way through it. With my head. I burned out over and over again and ended up in cumulatively worse shape over time because I never acknowledged my problems were real.

It doesn't sound harsh, it sounds simplistic and naive.

You can posit the same amount of control for physical pain: you may not be able to prevent a nociceptor from firing, but you can choose how to react to it and whether you let it control your life. In the same sense, you cannot control the thoughts that appear in your head (or which neurons fire, on a lower level), but you have some leeway in how you react to it, even though there is the possibility that the amount of influence we actually have is largely overestimated. In any case, the claim that you have more control over mental pain than over physical pain is not substantiated by any sort of evidence. It's even debatable if there is ultimately a difference (not that I'd want to do that now).

I'm always amazed at how few people can imagine that their own experience isn't universally valid.

Who appointed you to make that definition for us?

Suicide is a social problem in the sense that society to some extent is responsible for helping people who need it (ignoring the fact that society fails on this point, and that many believe society shouldn't be responsible at all).

Suicide is a psychological problem in the sense that it is associated with psychological stress and several mental illnesses.

It is also a personal problem in that it's pretty personal to those of us who end up trying to cope with it, whatever the outcome.

It's a valid judgement, as long as both alternatives are clearly defined for you.
As you can see in this thread, there are many reasons why people choose to not agree with this, but none of them can claim to be universally valid for everyone.

Last edited by LookTwice on 08 Aug 2012, 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I beg to differ--I'm not using illogical arguments. There are some emotional things in there, because I want to encourage people who are going through hard times, but what I'm saying does not go against the laws of logic.

To summarize my viewpoint:

Suicide is not needed to alleviate pain.
Leaving aside the case of terminal illness (which is a separate issue I won't discuss here), there is no such thing as "lifelong torment" from which one cannot escape and which will never get better. There is pain, both physical and emotional, but pain does not equal an unsatisfying life. Human beings are naturally resilient, and learn to deal with even extreme circumstances. Because of the changeable nature of our minds and our situations, the worst times always get better. Depression is episodic. Mental illness can be treated. Circumstances can change.

Suicide does not make sense from the viewpoint of a human society.
Every human being can be seen as a potential resource for his community. Some can contribute more than others, but even extremely disabled humans can contribute by simply being present, cared for, and a symbol to everyone involved that this community cares about everyone in it, including its weakest members. If you commit suicide, you are denying your own potential to your society.

Suicide does not make sense from the viewpoint of the individual.
I am going to start with the assumption that you believe that it is possible for a human life to include desirable things; it doesn't matter whether your purpose is spiritual, social, or even simply hedonistic. Given that these desirable parts of life are worth having, it does not make sense to commit suicide. If you are dead, the chances of your reaching any of these desirable goals is, of course, zero. If you are alive, the chances of doing so are always more than zero. Simple game theory should tell you that the optimal strategy is always to remain alive.

Let me explain what I meant with my statement:
I'm not saying you arrive at your conclusions in an illogical way, I'm saying that the premises are up for debate.
That's why I added the "clearly defined" clause. I edited my original post to fix the statement.

Last edited by LookTwice on 08 Aug 2012, 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

If you are dead then you don't need desirable things to make life worth living. If the chance of reaching the desired goals is close enough to zero, it may as well be zero. Staying alive just because something good might happen int he future requires a lot of optimism.

Suicide is the reason depression is the most dangerous mental health problem.

I don't think religion comes into it for me. That sounds like rationalisation which we all do from time to time.

Please get help with the depression. Eat chocolate, see your GP, Buy a puppy! Whatever it takes.......