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yournamehere
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14 Mar 2014, 4:34 pm

O.k... yes... if there is a will, there is a way, or tough banannas... it is not because I feel uncomfortable lying, it is the barrage of thoughts I get after I do it I don't like, or appreciate, the fact that you somehow have to defend yourself when you get caught in one, and the fact that I don't want to. Tell the truth, and get it over with...Me either :) ... They are not, or they are helping themselves. There is nothing comfortable about being the way others want you to be when it just confuses you... your next question is fun. You just said you think lying is honest. Wtf???... I'm happy... all of your questions were answered in the order they were recieved. Have a great day.

Those of us who seek perfection will surely never find it.



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14 Mar 2014, 9:25 pm

I have a wonderful question. I always thought I have been good at this theory of mind thing, even though I don't like it. Not soo much because I can read into people, but because I try to be as logical as possible. When people are behaving illogically. Like when they believe a lie is honest, or they turn a story around on me, I tend to believe they have a screw loose, or have a poor theory of mind. It defies logic, and definition entirely. I think I am beginning to understand that this is not so? Does this so called theory, that supposedly is not a theory, defy logic? It starts with trick questions, and a theory is made. If someone is totally senceless, and insane in the membrain, and I cannot figure out for the life of me what this person is thinking, because it defies all logic, does that mean I have a poor theory of mind?

I saw a video on this. They ask a 4 year old what is in a box of crayons. He says "crayons". They say no! It is gummie bears or something. Then comes the trick question for the 4 year old. "Do you think your friend the weasel thinks there are gummie bears in there" the kid says yes, and BOOM theory of mind.

Personally I think it is a stupid question to ask a 4 year old, because they just told him what is in the box. Sounds to me like a perfectly logical answer for a 4 year old.

Besides, if people were logical, and not soo different, why would you not believe someone thinks the same as you do? The sky is blue for everyone. It is like saying Haha!! ! You have a poor theory of mind because you're a turtle, and I'm a giraffe. It is a stupid thing, and I don't like it!! !! !



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15 Mar 2014, 7:18 am

yournamehere wrote:
I have a wonderful question. I always thought I have been good at this theory of mind thing, even though I don't like it. Not soo much because I can read into people, but because I try to be as logical as possible. When people are behaving illogically. Like when they believe a lie is honest, or they turn a story around on me, I tend to believe they have a screw loose, or have a poor theory of mind. It defies logic, and definition entirely. I think I am beginning to understand that this is not so? Does this so called theory, that supposedly is not a theory, defy logic? It starts with trick questions, and a theory is made. If someone is totally senceless, and insane in the membrain, and I cannot figure out for the life of me what this person is thinking, because it defies all logic, does that mean I have a poor theory of mind?

I saw a video on this. They ask a 4 year old what is in a box of crayons. He says "crayons". They say no! It is gummie bears or something. Then comes the trick question for the 4 year old. "Do you think your friend the weasel thinks there are gummie bears in there" the kid says yes, and BOOM theory of mind.

Personally I think it is a stupid question to ask a 4 year old, because they just told him what is in the box. Sounds to me like a perfectly logical answer for a 4 year old.

Besides, if people were logical, and not soo different, why would you not believe someone thinks the same as you do? The sky is blue for everyone. It is like saying Haha!! ! You have a poor theory of mind because you're a turtle, and I'm a giraffe. It is a stupid thing, and I don't like it!! !! !


I think you and I have the same problem, we are approaching theory of mind logically. NT people don't, they use emotion and almost subconscious vague memories and don't let logic enter into it.



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15 Mar 2014, 9:29 am

Well, by definiton we are logical people. Were do these people get off telling us we need to be illogical, and if we don't, we have a problem?

There it is! These people trick us. I'm sure if the majority of the people on this planet were dominantly logical, these people making these jankey theories, would get diagnosed right into a real definitive diagnosis of an actual problem. However it is not a problem, because that is just the way most of us are, it's normal? Lying is o.k., fairy tails feel good, and as long as we can put someone else under us, because we understand things that don't really make sence, we will have something to look down on, and everything will feel good for us.

Once again, sorry for misunderstanding, and please forgive me for being me.



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15 Mar 2014, 11:35 am

yournamehere wrote:
Well, by definiton we are logical people. Were do these people get off telling us we need to be illogical, and if we don't, we have a problem?

There it is! These people trick us. I'm sure if the majority of the people on this planet were dominantly logical, these people making these jankey theories, would get diagnosed right into a real definitive diagnosis of an actual problem. However it is not a problem, because that is just the way most of us are, it's normal? Lying is o.k., fairy tails feel good, and as long as we can put someone else under us, because we understand things that don't really make sence, we will have something to look down on, and everything will feel good for us.

Once again, sorry for misunderstanding, and please forgive me for being me.


yournamehere - It would be helpful to consider this topic (and perhaps others for that matter), not from your perspective, but from the perspective of others. And that's what this is all about. You have to remove yourself (and your thoughts) from the equation. And, really try to see things how others see it. And, here's the rub, be able to do this real-time.

It's really hard for me to do as well. I am able to do this (say when I am thinking through things after a conversation has occurred), but am unable able to do it real-time. Based upon your writings, it sounds like you may never (try) do this. Though I could be wrong.



Last edited by Rocket123 on 15 Mar 2014, 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

palladium
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15 Mar 2014, 4:39 pm

yournamehere wrote:
You just said you think lying is honest. Wtf???


I suppose that I think that it is effectively a type of theft to unnecessarily hurt someone else's feelings - I'm effectively stealing their happiness if I do so. Therefore I see that as being dishonest. In some situations I do truthfully believe that it is more honest to tell a harmless lie and spare someone's feelings than it is to tell the truth and hurt them. That is a very complex and messy type of decision to make but I think quite a few people do that. Some NTs abuse lying and just use it for their own benefit (and I can't promise that I never do, but I try not to). Others try to use it only for the good. I see it as a skill like any other that can be used for good or for bad.



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17 Mar 2014, 12:30 pm

Rocket123 wrote:
yournamehere wrote:
Well, by definiton we are logical people. Were do these people get off telling us we need to be illogical, and if we don't, we have a problem?

There it is! These people trick us. I'm sure if the majority of the people on this planet were dominantly logical, these people making these jankey theories, would get diagnosed right into a real definitive diagnosis of an actual problem. However it is not a problem, because that is just the way most of us are, it's normal? Lying is o.k., fairy tails feel good, and as long as we can put someone else under us, because we understand things that don't really make sence, we will have something to look down on, and everything will feel good for us.

Once again, sorry for misunderstanding, and please forgive me for being me.


yournamehere - It would be helpful to consider this topic (and perhaps others for that matter), not from your perspective, but from the perspective of others. And that's what this is all about. You have to remove yourself (and your thoughts) from the equation. And, really try to see things how others see it. And, here's the rub, be able to do this real-time.

It's really hard for me to do as well. I am able to do this (say when I am thinking through things after a conversation has occurred), but am unable able to do it real-time. Based upon your writings, it sounds like you may never (try) do this. Though I could be wrong.


You are totally correct. Though I have all of my feelings, and empathy, I do not really want to do it. It may have taken me some time to understand, and after I figured out how these people want me to think, I don't want to do it. I just don't like it. It seems soo snakey to me. It makes me feel slimy. Alot of times, I look down on people for being soo fictitious. Unless of course someone could get in real serious trouble, than I read people, and lie like a rug. I'm pritty good at it too. :D

The people in my life I care about respect me for being this way. Others hate me for it, and I have no choice other than to not like them back.



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18 Mar 2014, 5:17 pm

palladium wrote:
yournamehere wrote:
You just said you think lying is honest. Wtf???


I suppose that I think that it is effectively a type of theft to unnecessarily hurt someone else's feelings - I'm effectively stealing their happiness if I do so. Therefore I see that as being dishonest. In some situations I do truthfully believe that it is more honest to tell a harmless lie and spare someone's feelings than it is to tell the truth and hurt them. That is a very complex and messy type of decision to make but I think quite a few people do that. Some NTs abuse lying and just use it for their own benefit (and I can't promise that I never do, but I try not to). Others try to use it only for the good. I see it as a skill like any other that can be used for good or for bad.


Do you realise that what you are telling me is that you, and other people are replacing logic, rationality, and morality with feelings, lies, and fictitious behavior, and calling it theory of mind? It saddens me to know that science wants to call an act of deception a skill, and make people believe they have a big problem because they do not know how to do this. Telling the truth may be even a bigger skill that takes more brains, and determination than the latter. There is something within this way of thinking that apparently has no definition. It is more brave, and is more important that this theory of mind stuff. Sounds to me like you need to learn your way out of theory of mind.

It took me some time to be able to think like this theory of mind stuff, and maybe after I learned it, I already knew how to deal without it. I can be thankful for that, and I know that being the way that I am is not a weakness. Other peoples theory of mind punishes me sometimes, and I know it should not. That's about it.

Maybe autistic people take longer to learn this, because they are honing a different skill.

Impeccability? Maybe that is the word I'm looking for.



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19 Mar 2014, 3:58 am

yournamehere wrote:
Do you realise that what you are telling me is that you, and other people are replacing logic, rationality, and morality with feelings, lies, and fictitious behavior, and calling it theory of mind?


No, I'm saying that I differentiate between the truth and the right thing to do. I don't think that the two always equate. Always telling the truth can seriously hurt people. As an extreme example, during WW2, telling a Nazi that someone was Jewish would most likely get them killed. In that case if you have life as a moral value then I think you'd agree that logically, rationally and morally you'd be correct in lying.

In a less extreme example of someone's feelings things do get a bit murkier. However, I place great value on other people's feelings. If I damage someone's self confidence by telling them something that is true but they don't need to know then that can potentially affect them for the rest of their life. Do I have the right to do that kind of damage to them? I feel that I often don't and in many cases it is better to lie.

If you spent a great deal of time choosing a present for someone and bought it for them and it was not what they wanted, would you really want them to tell you that?



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20 Mar 2014, 9:54 am

palladium wrote:
yournamehere wrote:
Do you realise that what you are telling me is that you, and other people are replacing logic, rationality, and morality with feelings, lies, and fictitious behavior, and calling it theory of mind?


No, I'm saying that I differentiate between the truth and the right thing to do. I don't think that the two always equate. Always telling the truth can seriously hurt people. As an extreme example, during WW2, telling a Nazi that someone was Jewish would most likely get them killed. In that case if you have life as a moral value then I think you'd agree that logically, rationally and morally you'd be correct in lying.

In a less extreme example of someone's feelings things do get a bit murkier. However, I place great value on other people's feelings. If I damage someone's self confidence by telling them something that is true but they don't need to know then that can potentially affect them for the rest of their life. Do I have the right to do that kind of damage to them? I feel that I often don't and in many cases it is better to lie.

If you spent a great deal of time choosing a present for someone and bought it for them and it was not what they wanted, would you really want them to tell you that?


Ut ooh!! ! Here we go again. The truth is the right thing to do. It is not a tragic mental experience to get a gift you do not like. If you believe it is, than there lies a problem. Do a better job understanding the person, so you can give a better gift. After all it is YOUR theory of mind idea, YOUR the one who is supposed to know these things, because YOU are soo good at "reading peoples minds"?

As far as your jewish story, all of that stuff was a sociopathic, and neurotypical LIE! A mocked up, fairy tail type story based on a theory about white north atlantic arian supremacy, and way too many people believed it. It was a brainwashing, mind control attempt. Projection transference and control. Neurotypical people believed that lie, and followed it all the way to their demise. If the opposition did not stop that lie, it would probably still be going on today.

Once again, I am sorry for being me. I am not saying any of this stuff to hurt anyones feelings, or create an argument. This is just the way I think, because of how I interpret things.



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20 Mar 2014, 10:27 am

yournamehere wrote:

I saw a video on this. They ask a 4 year old what is in a box of crayons. He says "crayons". They say no! It is gummie bears or something. Then comes the trick question for the 4 year old. "Do you think your friend the weasel thinks there are gummie bears in there" the kid says yes, and BOOM theory of mind.

Personally I think it is a stupid question to ask a 4 year old, because they just told him what is in the box. Sounds to me like a perfectly logical answer for a 4 year old.



Actually the kid is showing lack of Theory of Mind. They just told the kid what was in the box but they didn't tell his friend the weasel. If the kid had developed full theory of mind, he would have been able to figure out that his friend the weasel was missing that key piece of information and would therefore go by the outside look of the box (crayons). Age 4 is roughly when most kids develop theory of mind to the point of being able to answer "crayons". So it will be a logical answer for the 4 year olds who aren't yet at that point but an illogical answer for those who have developed it.



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20 Mar 2014, 7:25 pm

Correct. However there is still the question of weather or not the child actually understood the question. Like for instance, maybe he thinks they are going to tell his friend the weasel what is in the box too? Or they could possibly ask the kid the question properly, so it is properly understood. Like this " since you thought there were crayons in the box, and you were wrong, do you think your friend the weasel would be wrong too?" You see? Ya know, it is not hard for some overeducated scholars to give a four year old a series of trick questions, have him get it wrong, write a book about it, and have every behave alike, lie stacking neurotypical believe autistic people have this huge problem that is detrimental to society because they don't play well with fairy tales, lie, and do not understand other people very well (which may be a good thing if they don't). :lol:



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21 Mar 2014, 4:44 am

yournamehere wrote:
Ut ooh!! ! Here we go again. The truth is the right thing to do. It is not a tragic mental experience to get a gift you do not like. If you believe it is, than there lies a problem. Do a better job understanding the person, so you can give a better gift. After all it is YOUR theory of mind idea, YOUR the one who is supposed to know these things, because YOU are soo good at "reading peoples minds"?


A few points: -

1) I was talking about hurting the feelings of the giver, not the recipient
2) It isn't about it being a tragic mental experience - it is about not hurting someone's feelings after they have put a lot of effort into it
3) As well as you understand someone, it is always possible to make a mistake
4) It isn't my theory of mind idea - it is psychologists who came up with it
5) I've never claimed to be able to mind read. Theory of mind is a simplified model of what someone else is likely to be thinking. No one can ever say with certainty what another person is thinking.

yournamehere wrote:
As far as your jewish story, all of that stuff was a sociopathic, and neurotypical LIE! A mocked up, fairy tail type story based on a theory about white north atlantic arian supremacy, and way too many people believed it. It was a brainwashing, mind control attempt. Projection transference and control. Neurotypical people believed that lie, and followed it all the way to their demise. If the opposition did not stop that lie, it would probably still be going on today.


Of course it was a lie and it is still going on today. My point was that there are situations where telling the truth can literally get an innocent person killed. Now, you might argue that if everyone only told the truth then that wouldn't be the case, but I don't think think that is correct because a) we can't always determine the absolute truth on every point - sometimes there is insufficient data, b) some things are subjective and c) some conflicts are a competition for limited resources. More importantly, we live in a world where not everyone holds the truth above all else so my question to you is do you really believe that it is correct to tell the truth even if it will get an innocent person killed?



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21 Mar 2014, 7:55 am

The truth kills, your feelings get hurt from giving, and psychologists make theories based on talking in double tounge, deception, fairy tales, and... ooh wait, it is not even a theory apparently, they just call it one. We are all supposed to believe this, and follow along with it. Especially autistics, because we are soo logical?

I wish what you were telling me was not reality. Are you sure these people making this stuff up out of really thin air, and people like yourself do not have somekind of mental disorder, or illness? It sounds to me like you people have one too, and you try to make everyone believe that you don't. You actually lie about it, and make believe everything is o.k. wtf is that?



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21 Mar 2014, 11:29 am

littlebee wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
A lack of "theory of mind" means you act on the presumption that others see a situation just as you do. This is an infantile condition that most NTs learn to grow out of as they mature (not that all do...because they are self-centered or selfish). People with AS typically have difficulty seeing things from another person's point of view unless they make a deliberate effort to do so. NTs supposedly learn early on to see things form another person's point of view on a more "automatic" level.

This is a very wonderful message, and a wonderful thread, imo.

I never heard of this concept until I was on WP about three months or so, but did not first read about it here. One of my daughters who is autistic told me about it, and it has been quite helpful. For instance I tend to jump to conclusions that people will understand what I am saying because I assume they already know the prerequisite material or have had the prerequisite experience, which would be kind of the same experience I have had. but neither of these is probably the case as I have had a very unique set of life circumstances and opportunities. Though at this point I am quite able to make a distinction, often I do not fine tune it enough, and whenever I begin to realize I am functioning from an underdeveloped theory of mind in a specific instance, it was like having the wool pulled off my eyes.

In terms of explaining ideas, I did understand a few years ago that I tend to idolize people's ability to understand what I am saying and that this was not being true to these people, so I already understood the concept, but the theory of mind idea was quite helpful.

The main thing, imo, at least in the beginning, for those who want to develop a more mature theory of mind is to see ones own theory of mind kind of missing the mark when it does. Because the habit is so deeply ingrained that is admittedly kind of hard to see, but possible....then one begins to develop a more comprehensive picture of oneself and how ones own thinking is skipping steps, perhaps because facing the fact of ones own feeling and simply feeling it is too painful, and after a few glimpses are caught, one can begin to focus more and more on listening to and accepting other people.
Quote:
This is an infantile condition that most NTs learn to grow out of as they mature (not that all do...because they are self-centered or selfish).

Yes, infantile is the right word and touches on what in psychology is referred to as object relations. Some people have not been given the range of experience by their primary caretaker to be able to make a bridge between self and other. To find oneself in such a condition is very sad, and the way out is not easy.
Quote:
NTs supposedly learn early on to see things form another person's point of view on a more "automatic" level.

Yes, supposedly:-) The use of the word 'automatic' with the apostrophes around it is very astute. The person is kind of giving ujp something about himself in order to understand what the other person is doing, and in this area some kind of intuitive exchange occurs, the result of which is very gratifying, and when a young child begins to experiment in making this kind of exchange between self and other with satisfying results, then he is motivated to learn how to do it more and more, and his developing sense of self becomes built and expanded upon this foundation of trusting others and feeling okay..


THEORY OF MIND is something everyone has. You do not study a book to learn a theory of mind....you just live life. And the more you live life the more you will develop an idea of how others feel and think.

As you live your life you will find if you take someone's toy they will cry. The net time you meet a child with a toy you will know: "If I take that person's toy, they will be unhappy and cry. THIS IS YOUR OWN "THEORY OF MIND." This is how you learn.

If you happen to be Autistic you may find a separation between yourself and other children interferes with the development of your THEORY OF MIND. If you never have an experience of taking a toy from someone and witness them crying as a result you may think it's perfectly OK to take what you will.

But if your isolation is profound then your Theory of Mind will be weak. No one has a perfect Theory of Mind; you'd have to be a mind reader. But some people are much better at this than others (I'm poor myself) usually depending on intelligence, motivation and opportunity.

If you think I'm crazy for writing this then you display your application of YOUR Theory of Mind. :D

denny



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21 Mar 2014, 12:45 pm

ZenDen wrote:
littlebee wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
A lack of "theory of mind" means you act on the presumption that others see a situation just as you do. This is an infantile condition that most NTs learn to grow out of as they mature (not that all do...because they are self-centered or selfish). People with AS typically have difficulty seeing things from another person's point of view unless they make a deliberate effort to do so. NTs supposedly learn early on to see things form another person's point of view on a more "automatic" level.

This is a very wonderful message, and a wonderful thread, imo.

I never heard of this concept until I was on WP about three months or so, but did not first read about it here. One of my daughters who is autistic told me about it, and it has been quite helpful. For instance I tend to jump to conclusions that people will understand what I am saying because I assume they already know the prerequisite material or have had the prerequisite experience, which would be kind of the same experience I have had. but neither of these is probably the case as I have had a very unique set of life circumstances and opportunities. Though at this point I am quite able to make a distinction, often I do not fine tune it enough, and whenever I begin to realize I am functioning from an underdeveloped theory of mind in a specific instance, it was like having the wool pulled off my eyes.

In terms of explaining ideas, I did understand a few years ago that I tend to idolize people's ability to understand what I am saying and that this was not being true to these people, so I already understood the concept, but the theory of mind idea was quite helpful.

The main thing, imo, at least in the beginning, for those who want to develop a more mature theory of mind is to see ones own theory of mind kind of missing the mark when it does. Because the habit is so deeply ingrained that is admittedly kind of hard to see, but possible....then one begins to develop a more comprehensive picture of oneself and how ones own thinking is skipping steps, perhaps because facing the fact of ones own feeling and simply feeling it is too painful, and after a few glimpses are caught, one can begin to focus more and more on listening to and accepting other people.
Quote:
This is an infantile condition that most NTs learn to grow out of as they mature (not that all do...because they are self-centered or selfish).

Yes, infantile is the right word and touches on what in psychology is referred to as object relations. Some people have not been given the range of experience by their primary caretaker to be able to make a bridge between self and other. To find oneself in such a condition is very sad, and the way out is not easy.
Quote:
NTs supposedly learn early on to see things form another person's point of view on a more "automatic" level.

Yes, supposedly:-) The use of the word 'automatic' with the apostrophes around it is very astute. The person is kind of giving ujp something about himself in order to understand what the other person is doing, and in this area some kind of intuitive exchange occurs, the result of which is very gratifying, and when a young child begins to experiment in making this kind of exchange between self and other with satisfying results, then he is motivated to learn how to do it more and more, and his developing sense of self becomes built and expanded upon this foundation of trusting others and feeling okay..


THEORY OF MIND is something everyone has. You do not study a book to learn a theory of mind....you just live life. And the more you live life the more you will develop an idea of how others feel and think.

As you live your life you will find if you take someone's toy they will cry. The net time you meet a child with a toy you will know: "If I take that person's toy, they will be unhappy and cry. THIS IS YOUR OWN "THEORY OF MIND." This is how you learn.

If you happen to be Autistic you may find a separation between yourself and other children interferes with the development of your THEORY OF MIND. If you never have an experience of taking a toy from someone and witness them crying as a result you may think it's perfectly OK to take what you will.

But if your isolation is profound then your Theory of Mind will be weak. No one has a perfect Theory of Mind; you'd have to be a mind reader. But some people are much better at this than others (I'm poor myself) usually depending on intelligence, motivation and opportunity.

If you think I'm crazy for writing this then you display your application of YOUR Theory of Mind. :D

denny

Hey Denny, cannot tell if you are disagreeing with anything in my post or not, and if there is a particular point, please let me know, but I basically agree with everything you wrote.

I thought this had the potential to be a great thread, but I had to stop participating because for me the 'dialogue' (what one psychologist, Bion, who studied group dynamics would have called pairing) between two people got very flat and kind of gutted the potential for group enquiry and the input of new ideas.

Anyway, re the point about isolation, I agree. This would limit a child's potential to develop a stronger theory of mind, except in my case, as I have written before, I had a lot of socialization, played with a lot of children and was only bullied on a couple of occasions, but none of this really helped me develop a mature theory of mind.

When I found out about the theory of mind concept, that helped me take a big leap in understanding,as I began to look at my own assumptions from a different perspective and when turning the picture sideways and looking from a different angle caught some mind blowing glimpses, but this new perspective came about because of other factors, too, such as the realization that I had on the bus about perception. In fact that was the main game changer for me, but I was already onto something, as in the last two or three years I began to notice I was idealizing people and their ability to understand certain material.

I do agree with someone here who implied that concept is of only limited value from a psychological perspective, but I think it can be of some value in explaining certain things about oneself to oneself and as a diagnosis tool, etc.

Re the crayon box test, am just guessing, but I probably would have passed it at age four, so I am not sure how much this would have indicated about my future development.