If There Was a War Between NTs & Autistics.......

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No, it cannot be said of "neurotypicallity". First of all, to label billions of people as neurotypical and yourselves as "special" is so silly words cannot even describe it.

Second, read the DSM criteria for Autism Spectrum Disorders. As it turns out, there is a good reason that they are labeled disorders and require treatment.



Not really. A disorder, disease, etc has very little to no positive affects. Anything that is considered good is generally not listed as a trait of any disorder, unless it is specific to that disorder (e.g. Kim Peek's memory). However, one positive trait of a person does not mean that they don't have problems. You on the otherhand seemed to have given autistics non-existent "special traits", most of which are possessed by people in general.



1. It is one of many logical fallacies and it undermines your legitimacy.
2 & 3. Read the goddanmed links I provided, or better yet, actually study the theories and read lots of books, look at the experiments, etc. before you go off misinforming the public.

It doesn't matter what type of world you live in, for humans to survive they have to be able to socialize. There are many underlying reasons, even scientific ones, for why this has to be.

Last edited by RadiantAspie on 04 Oct 2007, 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Only if you are looking only at HFA/Asperger's. And even then, to listen to the people on this board, your statement would still only apply to a subset of high-functioning people. And did you know that many deaf people do not consider themselves to have a disability? They speak a different language from most of the people around them, but other than that, they don't see anything wrong. In fact, deaf people have formed a totally awesome culture, they have their own forms of poetry and art, and are often really excellent at reading the nuances of nonverbal behavior like body posture and facial expression. Many hearing impaired people have also become quite adept at comprehending hearing people who don't know sign language through a combination of lip reading, nonverbal behavior, context, and educated guesses. I'd bet that the majority of deaf people would be insulted that you would have made this statement about them.

I'd also like to point out that deafness only carries one penalty: deaf people have a hearing impairment. Whereas people with autism often have problems with sensory integration, auditory processing, attention, comprehension of non-verbal communication, visual-processing, flexibility, executive functioning... I could go on and on.

Well, the interesting thing about gender is that male and female define one another.(Whether connectors, animals, or people) It is like light and dark. It is even SILLY to define God as male/female because EVEN if God was corporeal, one entity could not have a gender.

deafness is such a relatively minor thing.

For the others, who knows. So many things that defined races have been blurred. It was NOT originally solely skin color. Still, it isn't openly considered to be as pervasive as autism, because doing so it called RACIST!

People with downs look very different. Head shape, eyes, fingernails. It goes much farther than even the original descriptions of appearance of various races. And the genetic makeup is almost like another species. People with autism have various differences that run both extremes of the non appearance stereotypes of races.

So who is to say?

Are there reputation points here on this site? I would like to give LostInSpace some for her excellent points.

I thought this thread was if there were a war between NT's and Aspies not Aspie vs Aspie.

These arguements never end because facts often come from opinions.

About the dosage, yes the person I spoke of took the right dose. He was on the medication for a really long time and he told me after he started the medication when he was 9, his social skills were on the decline. His parents weren't thinking about his best interests but instead their best interests. I know that because I know his parents.

Wow, thanks, RadiantAspie!

I never said that. And yes it can be said of "neurotypicality". If society deemed hypersocializing to be a "bad" trait "normal" people could be given "proper treatment, to make the bad symptoms go away or be alleviated, and they can go off to live a good life like any other normal (autistic) person."



I have read it.. but those "disabilities" are only applicable in a neurotypical society. If everyone without an ASD died could humanity survive and build a new society? Yes. Would it be the same as the old one? No it would be tailored to the ASD mindset and the "disabilities" your harping on wouldnt exist because there would be no need for those skills.



Thats my point.. if it does have positive effects and the negative effects are sociologically situational only is it really a disorder?



Still dont understand what your getting at



I have and they don't pertain to this. I dont see how pointing out that this particular disability since it causes little to no impairment to survival ability (at least among high functionings.. the low functioning ones would be selected against and die out) is only a disability from a matter of perspective is misinforming the public.



What are you smoking? The ability to communicate is needed for human survival.. the ability to work together is needed for survival.. these are things people with ASDs can do.. the desire to socialize incessantly over unimportant topics at the cost of systematizing ability is not needed for survival.

The "you would all die without us NTs" mentality you seem to have makes me doubt your diagnosis.



Actually yes I did know that and I meant no offense to those people but I couldn't speak for them and say that they would agree with me that what others consider to be a disability isn't really because I'm not deaf and I don't know how prevailant that belief is.

I'm sorry to hear that. That is really unfortunate. However, it does not undermine the effectiveness of ritalin, it has been proven to work. That doesn't mean though that people will not abuse it, it is the same with any medication. It is the patient's responsibility to inform the doc of any problems, other then that there's nothing much that can be done.




No not exactly. While it is possible to make stuff up, facts usually come from observation and anything that is taken to be self-evident (such as 2+2=4)

Last edited by RadiantAspie on 04 Oct 2007, 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

But the tone of this thread or train of thought implies that you do.





I could comment but this is now just going around in circles.


I see no more value in this thread, because now it seems to me that this is more of a defense of your beliefs, akin to religion. No evidence, logical fallacies, quote mining, ignoring facts, etc.

I haven't "implied" anything but that people with ASDs are not NTs thats kind of self evident don't you think?



I don't really see where Ive been in any way unreasonable but Ill give you that one.. of course I haven't seen you do much more than what you accuse me of either and your arguments get more tenuous and preposterous by the posting but Ill let you off the hook.

All Ive really been trying to get across here is that humanity doesn't decide what is a "disability" nature does that. How effective an individual is at survival isn't as important as the fact that they can survive. If they can theres nothing wrong with them.

Last edited by Fraya on 04 Oct 2007, 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Damn, my irony meter just melted

Care to elaborate or was it just a hardware failure?

"Cherry-picking quotes?" I went to the front page of Attwood's site and the "What is Asperger's?" section of the ARC site. No cherry-picking, just took the first thing I saw demonstrating the professional opinions of the two most highly-regarded autism researchers in the world. And yeah, Attwood is stating an opinion. That's what we were talking about there- whether or not his opinion supported my claims. What did you expect? And how does it not support my position? Do you know what my position is, or are you simply making assumptions in order to make your straw-men easier to kill? To clarify, here is my position: I am autistic, and I am not defective. I have a different way of viewing the world, and this has both benefits and drawbacks, though I personally consider the benefits to outweigh the drawbacks (at least for me). In any case, it is wrong to try to eliminate those like myself through genetic screening, selective abortion, forced sterilization (this happened to several groups in America in the 20s and 30s), or some forced "cure" for those of us who are perfectly happy with who we are. It is perfectly acceptable to, as Attwood and Baron-Cohen have, develop therapies to help Aspies remediate our weaknesses in certain areas. But I wonder sometimes why we don't help NTs correct their areas of weakness (disregard for finding the truth, inattention to detail, etc).
I never commented on whether autism had anytting to do with physical brain structure- I never made any claim as to the reason why some people are autistic and others are not, I simply stated that we are not broken and thus do not need to be fixed.
Yes, some degree of socialization is always required, and I can handle that. But when socialization becomes the overriding priority to the exclusion of actually doing something productive, that could be viewed as rather maladaptive. My point was that Aspies and NTs tend to have different sets of talents and abilities, but as the world is filled with NTs, most situations are tailored to be to their advantage, thus creating the impression that autistics are unable to function in any context. This is false, our skills can be of great use if we are placed in an environment we are comfortable with.
By the way, Cambridge and other top universities have MUCH higher rates of autism than does the general population. Just one example of an environment in which Aspies excel and NT obsessions with socializing are harmful and obstructive. Does this make NTs defective? No, it means that they have a different set of abilities which is not as well-suited to this particular situation. Therefore they should seek out other environments in which their talents will be of greater benefit. (generally speaking of course, I know we can't lump all NTs into the same group and that they also have a wide variety of talents and personalities.)

Um... I'm not. People are people, but there are differences among us that need to be acknowleddged for everyone to have a chance at reaching their full potential. No, my logic is nothing like that of the Nazis or social Darwinists. I don't want to eradicate neurotypicals, I don't believe autistics to be inherently better or worse than neurotypicals. I simply want our differences to be acknowledged and for everyone to be able to be in an environment where the talents that they possess will best flourish. I don't want polarization or segregation, I want NTs and Aspies to live together in peace and mutual understanding and respect.

Ok, even though I promised not to respond anymore to this thread, I will answer you Orwell.

You are making this way too personal, and you have filled this thread with even more inaccuracies and gross misinterpretations.

Nobody here ever advocated this, and I certainly didn't either. Only you have brought this up. This is a completely different issue and unrelated.



That is a factual error. The truth is, many people, regardless of neurological condition, work to eradicate their weaknesses to some degree. However, the difference between autism and other conditions is that these problems are bad enough to be clinically significant. Have you even seen the peer-reviewed studies? Never mind the fact that they have been conducted and verfied and refined over a couple of decades now. Have you heard of the people who didn't succeed, who, because of their condition, were not able to make it? These definitions were not made up to discriminate against you. And anybody is capable of disregarding the truth, you for example have shown me that.




That is a big fat lie, and so unlikely and implausible in any case. Yes, it makes perfect sense, NT's are all after you, so much that they intentionally created a society that favors only them and puts "aspies" at a disadvantage. If only cooperation between them were that good (Ha!). Hell, I doubt most are even well informed enough to know what autism even is!

The truth is, it doesn't matter whether your autistic, NT, bipolar, ADD, etc. They aren't tailoring anything to their advantage, everybody has strengths and weaknesses, its just that some need much more attention then others.



I have yet to find a single study that indicates this. As far as I know, many people of all different neurological conditions and backgrounds are able to make it. The only criteria seems to be that they either did well in school or have the passion to pursue higher education. And no, data seems to indicate that people who are better at socializing are more likely to make it then people who aren't. In fact, they tend to be healthier and have better self-esteem, which are critical for academic success. And even if there were more autistics in top university, so what? That does not mean that they don't need assistence or help or don't have problems. Have you seen the suicide rates for top universities (and no they are not all autistics)?



Argument from authority fallacy. What matters is data and observations, not opinions.




Don't give me any of that! You were trying to portray yourself as superior and you know it! And please stop your paranoia revolving around "genocide", nobody never advocated that to begin with, and nobody around you is trying to eliminate you. This is a delusion that you have created for yourself.
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And for the record, I do most certainly not view myself as "flawed", or "broken", or anything of the sort. I know very well my strengths and weaknesses and every person I have ever met, whether they were NT or otherwise, judged me on the basis of my own merits, not on race, or ethnicity, or neurological condition, etc. And I know that I can contribute meaningfully to society with my unique abilities.

However, as much as I like to think that I am perfectly normal, I know that I am not, and no amount of self-deception and paranoia is going to change that. I know that I am at risk for far worse things, and I know that for some situation I need more help then others. My opinions or wishes don't matter. This isn't about what I want or how I feel, it is about what is. And so far, all evidence indicates that ASD are disorders, hence the name.


What I suggest is that you calm down, swallow your pride, and think about what I said, and educate yourself in both psychology and logical thinking.

No, I don't think there is some conspiracy against Aspies by NTs. What I meant is that societies tend to be set up in a way that is most comfortable for the majority of people in them. As NTs are a huge majority, most of our social institutions and the structure of our civilization is based on their needs. No conspiracy, just society trying to best serve the majority. Sorry if I was unclear before.

That's from the Cambridge website.
The argument from authority was in response to your challoenge to show that Attwood and Baron-Cohen supported the position I had put forward (i.e. that Aspies are not inferior). They do, and I showed this. It doesn't make them any more than opinions, but you also referenced opinions for your claims (though you generally relied on the vague impersonal opinions of large groups, which is just as much an appeal to authority fallacy). As Attwood and Baron-Cohen are highly respected authorities on Asperger's, it is reasonable to give some weight to their opinions and claims. Certainly neither is the final word on this or any other subject, but they certainly know far more about it than I do and thus I have respect for their opinions. The same is true of other subjects- if someone in a position where it is likely that they know much more than I do, and my views contradict theirs, I generally take a step back to examine why we think differently, and then modify my opinions if I find them to be in error (which is fairly frequently).
Apologies if some of my statements were worded overly-strongly, I tend to do that rather frequently. I did not intend for this to become any kind of personal attack, and I am sorry if I come across that way. There is an example of where I need to improve my skills: I tend to communicate in such absolutes that I often overstate my case. But the "paranoia" around genocide is not entirely unfounded- there have been people calling for the use of prenatal testing to eliminate autism, and genocide (or whatever you prefer to call it) against many groups, including those perceived as mentally infirm, has been attempted in the past and so it seems to me perfectly logical to guard against it occurring in the future. And the rhetoric of groups like Cure Autism Now and Autism Speaks can make many Aspies (myself included) rather uneasy, as we do not want to have a "cure" forced upon us. No, I never claimed that people around me are trying to eliminate me- most people don't even realize I'm autistic anyways, and I have little reason to tell them. But I oppose some of the measures (such as genetic testing) that have been proposed to lessen the incidence of autism, as by accepting such things we would slip closer towards some kind of eugenics, which historically has never ended well. Incidentally, I was not the one to bring up genocide- someone else did early on and you and Fraya proceeded to spend a great deal of time debating over the precise meaning of the word "genocide" and whether it could be applied to attempts to eliminate autism. Thus I felt my comments pertaining to genocide were relevent. If not then I apologize, sometimes I do draw connections that make very little sense.

Okay, so I stand corrected in this particular case. There are higher cases of autism in top universities. But I'm pretty certain that most of those people have had proper treatment to alleviate the symptoms, especially in this day and age . I know that that I probably wouldn't have made it if it were not for the various treatments that I had to endure...



I know that it wasn't, and you are forgiven. And forgive me for being rather harsh, its just that I have to put up with irrational nonsense of this kind on a day to day basis by people who don't know what they are talking about. You just need to work on removing emotional bias or hasty assumptions from your arguments. Opinions are fine, as long as they are not portrayed as fact.



And I am well aware of this. Most groups like this, however, are not mainstream and they are questionable from a scientific standpoint, or any logical standpoint for that matter. For one, Cure Autism Now has put its funds toward questionable treatment and has supported debunked theories.

As for Autism Speaks, I think they are much more focused on lower functioning autism.

But the one thing you have to remember is to keep your cool and remember that most of this is usually a non-problem. There are always going to be radicals, quacks, crackpots, etc, who will extend their beliefs and ideas into utter ridiculousness. Theories on how to treat autism and other forms of medical or psychological conditions are no different, they have their share of quacks. But most of the time they are usually ignored by both scientists and the educated public (the ones who make the desicions and actually help to maintain and build our society). Plus, there aren't a lot of people who go for prenatal testing as that has the potential of doing much more harm.

Last edited by RadiantAspie on 05 Oct 2007, 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.