Wake up people! There is no such thing as Aspergers.

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ZEGH8578
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10 Mar 2009, 12:58 am

troll post.
posting random unsourced material cought from quick google searches.
try to take that "research" w you to the scientific community. beat them dead.

you go boy. cya.

(btw: fail.)



Whimsi-Cal
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10 Mar 2009, 1:06 am

junior1 wrote:
This post is an attempt at a small blow against the massive naivete that can often be found on this board.

Aspergers is a social construct. It does not exist!

Here's a few quotes from chapter 2 of the "Handbook of Positive Psychology". I believe this chapter can be found for free in its entirety on google books.

Quote:
As with all icons, powerful sociocultural, political,
professional, and economic forces built the
illness ideology and the DSM and continue to
sustain them. Thus, to begin this iconoclasm,
we must realize that our conceptions of psychological
normality and abnormality, along with
our specific diagnostic labels and categories, are
not facts about people but social constructions—
abstract concepts that were developed collaboratively
by the members of society (individuals
and institutions) over time and that represent a
shared view of the world. As Widiger and Trull
(1991) have said, the DSM “is not a scientific
document. . . . It is a social document” (p. 111,
emphasis added). The illness ideology and the
conception of mental disorder that have guided the evolution of the DSM were constructed
through the implicit and explicit collaborations
of theorists, researchers, professionals, their clients,
and the culture in which all are embedded.
For this reason, “mental disorder” and the numerous
diagnostic categories of the DSM were
not “discovered” in the same manner that an
archaeologist discovers a buried artifact or a
medical researcher discovers a virus. Instead,
they were invented. By describing mental disorders
as inventions, however, I do not mean
that they are “myths” (Szasz, 1974) or that the
distress of people who are labeled as mentally
disordered is not real. Instead, I mean that these
disorders do not “exist” and “have properties”
in the same manner that artifacts and viruses
do. For these reasons, a taxonomy of mental
disorders such as the DSM “does not simply
describe and classify characteristics of groups of
individuals, but . . . actively constructs a version
of both normal and abnormal . . . which is then
applied to individuals who end up being classified
as normal or abnormal” (Parker, Georgaca,
Harper, McLaughlin, & Stowell-Smith, 1995,
p. 93).

The illness ideology’s conception of “mental
disorder” and the various specific DSM categories
of mental disorders are not reflections and
mappings of psychological facts about people.
Instead, they are social artifacts that serve the
same sociocultural goals as our constructions of
race, gender, social class, and sexual orientation—
that of maintaining and expanding the
power of certain individuals and institutions and
maintaining social order, as defined by those in
power (Beall, 1993; Parker et al., 1995; Rosenblum
& Travis, 1996).


Another choice quote a little later:

Quote:
Discussions of these new disorders have
turned up at scientific meetings and are likely
to find a home in the DSM-V if the media and
mental health professions continue to collaborate
in their construction, and if treating them
and writing books about them becomes lucrative.
The trend is clear. First we see a pattern of
behaving, thinking, feeling, or desiring that deviates
from some fictional social norm or ideal;
or we identify a common complaint that, as
expected, is displayed with greater frequency
or severity by some people than others; or
we decide that a certain behavior is undesirable,
inconvenient, or disruptive. We then
give the pattern a medical-sounding name, preferably
of Greek or Latin origin. Eventually,
the new term may be reduced to an acronym,
such as OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder),
ADHD (attention-deficit/hyperactive disorder),
and BDD (body dysmorphic disorder). The new
disorder then takes on a life of its own and becomes
a diseaselike entity. As news about “it”
spreads, people begin thinking they have “it”;
medical and mental health professionals begin
diagnosing and treating “it”; and clinicians and
clients begin demanding that health insurance
policies cover the “treatment” of “it.”


By all means, if you need disability accommodation or government money from the people in power get a so called expert to say you have Aspergers. But the idea that you are suffering from an objective, real disease is likely a naive one.


Yeah you're completely right! :lol: I mean why would the most complex organ in the human body malfunction? Such a myth! There isn't AS, Schizophrenia, or depression. Its all make belief to collect government money! :roll: If you cant see it like a broken leg it must be fake. :lol: ...but seriously do you stop yourself and reread this garbage you're posting? Of course not, you're an NT. Despite my problems I am at least able to see reality far better then you delusional condescending NTs. Nice try at using big words you don't even understand to sound "smart" and talk with a false sense of entitlement to other ignorant NTs. I actually suspect you of being another troll that posted a similar post about AS not being a disability but rather a difference. I'm sorry you fail again, you can go home now and cry yourself to sleep. Nice try anyways. I am going to be blunt here. You're just another naive ignorant NT who reads some controversial unscientific pop-psychology book and believe everything in it 100%. Why don't you go read David Ike's books and then go tell everyone about the Reptilian Aliens taking over society. Its ironic that you mention naivety.



Last edited by Whimsi-Cal on 10 Mar 2009, 1:13 am, edited 2 times in total.

ZEGH8578
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10 Mar 2009, 1:09 am

junior1 wrote:

Of course. I said earlier in the thread its a useful way to get the powerful people in society to give you help you need.


Dear Prime Minister.

I am an aspie, and this is what i help need: some chick aint noticing me, i got no friends, i need a digital camera and some memory chips for my computer, hell throw in a whole new computer. my cellphone works fine, but the battery cover is gone, so i could need a new cell as well.
Surely you will grant me these gifts, being that i am aspie, and you are powerfull.

sincerely

Zegh.

PS: would it be too much trouble to toss in a bag of weed?



ignisfatuus
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10 Mar 2009, 1:11 am

garyww wrote:
This reply is in reply to the OP who is perhaps unsure of his (or her) condition and came here seeking some type of confirmation and found that, sure enough he (or she) doesn't have it!


Pwned.


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Whimsi-Cal
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10 Mar 2009, 1:20 am

junior1 wrote:
bistromathics wrote:
I'm going to resist the urge to mock your post by saying the same thing about... lunch, or something (it's just a social construct, it's not real!). Instead I'm going to re-state your post as simply as possible.

So, basically, what you're saying is that people define and categorize phenomena perceived by the senses. A car is just as much a mental construct as lunch. I can imagine a few things that are not quite a car, or not quite lunch. I can even imagine eating pseudo-lunch in a pseudo-car.



Well, thank you for not mocking my post. These are not even my ideas, though I've clearly adopted them. I realise I came on a bit strong at the beginning of this thread but I guess I felt I wanted to state things as strongly as possible as an opening.

It seems you are almost willing to concede the point that to some extent, the fact that someone is labeled with Aspergers will be arbitrary i.e. not quite a car, not quite having aspergers).

But a lot of people here seem to thinks its a brain condition (though I'm not aware of brain testing like you'd test for HIV) How can you sort of but not quite have Aspergers if its a biological condition, or just barely have it?

The article I quoted argued that people have clusters of personality traits. if we view things like that, there's all sorts of different people on this forum with all sorts of different personalities that have, to some extent, been arbitrarily lumped together as having aspergers.

Some were labeled schizoids instead. Some were labeled avoidant personality. Some were just labeled "nerds" (i.e. socially awckward but not to the extent of aspergers). Some were labeled introverts.

Some were eccentric.

Some are "classic aspergers" cases. Some don't meet the classic description (I.e. don't go on and on about things like trains) but were told they have it and its a "continuum" so don't worry about the details.

the more you look at it, the more one comes to the conclusions that "experts" are lumping a whole bunch of different people together in arbitrary ways.

Or as david burns admits, a whole bunch of people stroked their beards and took a vote. then, even worse, a whole bunch of people made up their own interpretation of what the stroked bear folks said on.

I'm not saying people don;t have traits that we associate with aspergers, bu there is no binary state of a condition that is properly referred to as aspergers, its made up.


I for one cannot resist mocking you. Anyone that thinks that the most complex organ in the human body doesn't malfunction is a total intellectual failure. I still think that you're the same troll posting a similar post AGAIN. Instead of people with AS just being different it doesn't exist at all.



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10 Mar 2009, 1:41 am

I think Whimsi-Cal is awesome, just quietly.



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10 Mar 2009, 1:42 am

Quote:
is anyone else in favour of locking this thread?


Why? Because it brings up a question that goes against the generally accepted view of AS on this site? I've noticed several times on this site that there is a generally accepted view of AS and when ever someone tries to question that view, they're mocked, not taken seriously, called trolls etc without good reason, in my opinion. Just because people don't like what he has to say doesn't mean he's a troll, or purposely spreading hate just for laughs.

Now, I know a lot of people come to this site to troll by saying AS doesn't exist, and yes, the thread title could have been better worded and could imply a troll (but from his replies, I don't think he is - just chose a poor title), but I think the OP, whether a troll or not, might have a point and I'm kind of annoyed by the response from people. I was hoping other people would have more to say about it and make some actual discussion, rather than just blatantly mocking him like some people have. Only one or two people have actually seriously contributed to this thread in a decent manner.

Most people aren't even considering what the OP said just immediately going "nope, nu uh, don't think so" without any actual effort to be open minded enough to even CONSIDER it, even if only briefly. Not saying anyone has to believe it, believe what you feel is true, but you should at least be open to new ideas, especially since AS is still a very complex condition that scientists aren't anywhere near to having a complete understanding of. How can people be so sure of something that no one completely understands yet?



Ever since my diagnosis I've wondered if there is truely something wrong with me or if I just have a personality that's rare, which makes my behaviours unusual to other people. I feel like I only have difficulties getting on in this world because my behaviours are not socially acceptable. AS people are a minority. But that doesn't mean we have a medical condition.

Yes, I have sensory issues, lack social skills, have obsessions, etc. But, so do a lot of NTs I've come across. It's not unusual for NTs to possess one or two Aspie traits, and no, having a couple of Aspie traits doesn't make them Aspies or else the entire would would be AS because I've seen aspie traits in everyone I've met.

I'm not saying AS doesn't exist in some form, but the OP is worth thinking about, IMO. I came to this thread because I want to know what AS really is, and I'm severely disappointed by the responses.



ZEGH8578
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10 Mar 2009, 1:53 am

Anniemaniac wrote:
Quote:
is anyone else in favour of locking this thread?


Why? Because it brings up a question that goes against the generally accepted view of AS on this site? I've noticed several times on this site that there is a generally accepted view of AS and when ever someone tries to question that view, they're mocked, not taken seriously, called trolls etc without good reason, in my opinion. Just because people don't like what he has to say doesn't mean he's a troll, or purposely spreading hate just for laughs.

Now, I know a lot of people come to this site to troll by saying AS doesn't exist, and yes, the thread title could have been better worded and could imply a troll (but from his replies, I don't think he is - just chose a poor title), but I think the OP, whether a troll or not, might have a point and I'm kind of annoyed by the response from people. I was hoping other people would have more to say about it and make some actual discussion, rather than just blatantly mocking him like some people have. Only one or two people have actually seriously contributed to this thread in a decent manner.

Most people aren't even considering what the OP said just immediately going "nope, nu uh, don't think so" without any actual effort to be open minded enough to even CONSIDER it, even if only briefly. Not saying anyone has to believe it, believe what you feel is true, but you should at least be open to new ideas, especially since AS is still a very complex condition that scientists aren't anywhere near to having a complete understanding of. How can people be so sure of something that no one completely understands yet?



Ever since my diagnosis I've wondered if there is truely something wrong with me or if I just have a personality that's rare, which makes my behaviours unusual to other people. I feel like I only have difficulties getting on in this world because my behaviours are not socially acceptable. AS people are a minority. But that doesn't mean we have a medical condition.

Yes, I have sensory issues, lack social skills, have obsessions, etc. But, so do a lot of NTs I've come across. It's not unusual for NTs to possess one or two Aspie traits, and no, having a couple of Aspie traits doesn't make them Aspies or else the entire would would be AS because I've seen aspie traits in everyone I've met.

I'm not saying AS doesn't exist in some form, but the OP is worth thinking about, IMO. I came to this thread because I want to know what AS really is, and I'm severely disappointed by the responses.


his approach makes him a troll, in "my book". could be insensitivity tho.

his title can easily translate to "YOUR ALL A BUNCHA FAKERS. GET A LIFE." <---pure trolling.



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10 Mar 2009, 2:02 am

Quote:
his approach makes him a troll, in "my book". could be insensitivity tho.

his title can easily translate to "YOUR ALL A BUNCHA FAKERS. GET A LIFE." <---pure trolling.


I agree that the title makes him appear like a troll, which I did mention in my post, but I honestly don't think he is. None of this replies make him seem like a troll to me. He seems to be presenting an opinion that most people here disagree with or don't like to think about. That doesn't make him a troll.



Whimsi-Cal
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10 Mar 2009, 2:04 am

Anniemaniac wrote:
Quote:
is anyone else in favour of locking this thread?


Why? Because it brings up a question that goes against the generally accepted view of AS on this site? I've noticed several times on this site that there is a generally accepted view of AS and when ever someone tries to question that view, they're mocked, not taken seriously, called trolls etc without good reason, in my opinion. Just because people don't like what he has to say doesn't mean he's a troll, or purposely spreading hate just for laughs.

Now, I know a lot of people come to this site to troll by saying AS doesn't exist, and yes, the thread title could have been better worded and could imply a troll (but from his replies, I don't think he is - just chose a poor title), but I think the OP, whether a troll or not, might have a point and I'm kind of annoyed by the response from people. I was hoping other people would have more to say about it and make some actual discussion, rather than just blatantly mocking him like some people have. Only one or two people have actually seriously contributed to this thread in a decent manner.

Most people aren't even considering what the OP said just immediately going "nope, nu uh, don't think so" without any actual effort to be open minded enough to even CONSIDER it, even if only briefly. Not saying anyone has to believe it, believe what you feel is true, but you should at least be open to new ideas, especially since AS is still a very complex condition that scientists aren't anywhere near to having a complete understanding of. How can people be so sure of something that no one completely understands yet?



Ever since my diagnosis I've wondered if there is truely something wrong with me or if I just have a personality that's rare, which makes my behaviours unusual to other people. I feel like I only have difficulties getting on in this world because my behaviours are not socially acceptable. AS people are a minority. But that doesn't mean we have a medical condition.

Yes, I have sensory issues, lack social skills, have obsessions, etc. But, so do a lot of NTs I've come across. It's not unusual for NTs to possess one or two Aspie traits, and no, having a couple of Aspie traits doesn't make them Aspies or else the entire would would be AS because I've seen aspie traits in everyone I've met.

I'm not saying AS doesn't exist in some form, but the OP is worth thinking about, IMO. I came to this thread because I want to know what AS really is, and I'm severely disappointed by the responses.


If you read between the lines and analyze his source you'll find that he isn't just questioning AS, he is literally questioning EVERY DIAGNOSIS IN THE DSM. He is basically saying that none of these disorders exist, and are merely a social construct. I'm sorry but what he is arguing is absolutely absurd. Anyone that believes the most complex organ in the human body does not malfunction is delusional at best and deserves our ridicule.



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10 Mar 2009, 2:08 am

Anyone who thinks the OP is trolling should PM a moderator about this instead of posting accusations on the forums. The latter has previously given rise to warnings being issued by moderators to the poster/s making the accusations.

WP does not operate by a vigilante system of rule enforcement.

Alex has appointed moderators to take care of issues such as trolling. My understanding is posters are expected to take these matters to the moderators (via PM), both because they (the moderators) do not read everything on the forum and cannot be expected to efficiently do their jobs if posters do not keep them informed, and also because calling other posters trolls risks disruption and is utterly unhelpful.

If you think someone is trolling, please be part of the solution and contact a moderator via PM about your concerns and try to avoid aggravating the problem with accusations in open forum.



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10 Mar 2009, 2:11 am

pandd wrote:
Anyone who thinks the OP is trolling should PM a moderator about this instead of posting accusations on the forums. The latter has previously given rise to warnings being issued by moderators to the poster/s making the accusations.

WP does not operate by a vigilante system of rule enforcement.

Alex has appointed moderators to take care of issues such as trolling. My understanding is posters are expected to take these matters to the moderators (via PM), both because they (the moderators) do not read everything on the forum and cannot be expected to efficiently do their jobs if posters do not keep them informed, and also because calling other posters trolls risks disruption and is utterly unhelpful.

If you think someone is trolling, please be part of the solution and contact a moderator via PM about your concerns and try to avoid aggravating the problem with accusations in open forum.


Let me first clarify my beliefs. I suspect him of trolling, and without proof I am no better then him if I just go reporting him without knowing for sure.. Now if he continues to post similar things to illicit anger from the community I will report him, but again I realize he might actually believe what he is posting so I think he has a right to say it. I just happen to believe that his argument has not basis in reality.



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10 Mar 2009, 2:14 am

Has anyone brought this up yet?

Quote:
By describing mental disorders
as inventions, however, I do not mean
that they are “myths” (Szasz, 1974) or that the
distress of people who are labeled as mentally
disordered is not real.


That is from the original post. Note what it said! The writer means to say that what you are experiencing is very real. There is no attempt there to say, "You aren't disabled."

From what I've read so far however, the original post has jumped onto the wrong bandwagon and is trying to pretty much not just say that AS isn't real, but he seems to imply that you're experiences and perceptions aren't real.

If that is what you mean, OP, then you need to reread what you posted in the original post, because it clearly does not say that the symptoms for those who are labeled are fake.


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10 Mar 2009, 2:17 am

Quote:
If you read between the lines and analyze his source you'll find that he isn't just questioning AS, he is literally questioning EVERY DIAGNOSIS IN THE DSM. He is basically saying that none of these disorders exist, and are merely a social construct. I'm sorry but what he is arguing is absolutely delusional. Anyone that believes the most complex organ in the human body does not malfunction is delusional at best and deserves our ridicule.


Well first of all, you're asking an Aspie to read between the lines when we're not supposed to be able to do that, so if I have missed something, then, I dunno, can I blame it on my AS? I do think though that a lot of mental conditions probably don't exist as real condition but are instead social contructs. That's not to say mental conditions don't exist, because I've seen first had that they do, but I do think we should consider that ones like AS might actually not be real medical conditions but just social conditions.

From what I've seen though, it seems like people here just don't want to acknowledge that AS might not actually exist as a real medical condition because it takes away the security of having a diagnosis of something.

That's just my opinion. I mean no offense by it. I have an AS diagnosis and like I said, I often wonder if I really do have a medical condition. I'm just curious to know and this is something I've considered aswell. I was just a bit shocked at people mocking him so clearly considering I myself have thought about making a thread similar to this asking if AS does exist, but I refrained because I was worried about the responses I'd get. From what I've seen, my fears were justified. Would I have been mocked as well?

Quote:
I realize he might actually believe what he is posting so I think he has a right to say it. I just happen to believe that his argument has not basis in reality.



That's fine. You don't have to believe it, like I said, only believe what you think is true, but I was just a bit miffed at people's responses. Not the ones that don't agree, the responses that mock him.

I've seen nothing that says he's a troll to me, but then, maybe I'm wrong and if he is a troll, I'll admit I was wrong, but I do still think his OP is worth thinking about, which is what annoying me. No one wanted to even consider it.

If this is because people thought he was a troll, then I guess I missed that part. It seemed to me like people just got offended and defensive because he was presenting a differing opinion.

Quote:
From what I've read so far however, the original post has jumped onto the wrong bandwagon and is trying to pretty much not just say that AS isn't real, but he seems to imply that you're experiences and perceptions aren't real.


I seem to have missed this part. If he was implying that our experiences and perceptions aren't real then I understand people being annoyed.

I thought he was just saying that AS might not exist as an actual condition, and it's just a social condition, which I could imagine to be possible.



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10 Mar 2009, 2:26 am

Whimsi-Cal wrote:
Let me first clarify my beliefs. I suspect him of trolling, and without proof I am no better then him if I just go reporting him without knowing for sure..

I do not understand your logic. Calling someone a troll is name-calling and a personal attack, and therefore against the rules. Does that not make it no better than other forms of rule breaking?

There is nothing against the rules in calling moderator attention to potential trolling; they are not silly and will not simply act just because someone says trolling has occurred, but will instead give their consideration and if they are unsure, keep an eye on the issue (and the poster).

None of this causes any harm, and all would occur privately without anyone the wiser. Further if someone's behavior is inadvertently problematic, then this opens up an opportunity for moderators to point it out to the poster privately so they can have the chance to participate more constructively.

Quote:
Now if he continues to post similar things to illicit anger from the community I will report him, but again I realize he might actually believe what he is posting so I think he has a right to say it. I just happen to believe that his argument has not basis in reality.

Making accusations in the forums is more disruptive because everyone knows and some chime in and things easily turn into a slinging match.

Taking it to the moderators in PM (private message) is discreet and if the accusation is wrong the person at issue will not be negatively impacted. Ruining their reputation by tarring them with the troll label in open posts is more problematic if they are innocent and still no help whatsoever if they are not innocent (since only contacting the moderators can do anything more positive about the issue than feed the guilty).

To be quite clear, I have seen people receive warnings from moderators as a result of calling others troll in open posts, and I am simply relaying what I have read moderators assert and have read in the TOS. It's not so much my opinion, as my observation and understanding of Alex and the moderator's opinion (which I hope I have summarized accurately). Certainly not every accusation of trolling in open posts results in moderator warnings, but I for one would not like to see people receive such warnings without at least being aware that they might be breaking the rules.



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10 Mar 2009, 3:24 am

ZEGH8578 wrote:
troll post.
posting random unsourced material cought from quick google searches.
try to take that "research" w you to the scientific community. beat them dead.

you go boy. cya.

(btw: fail.)


"quick google search" ill say. my guess is that this guy(?) found out about aspergers, googled it discovered some propaganda along with this site and decides to make sure everyone on this site knows his hastily drawn opinion on something he dosent know about.