AUTISM, and religion

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Exactly!

What does "spiritual" mean? Does it mean that one is interested in abstract philosophical issues? Does it mean that one gives credence to notions that are not empirically based?

ruveyn

Your profanity is fine by me, and I do understand your irritation. But I think you're missing something crucial: this stuff matters. It matters just as much as the difference between liberal democracy and fascism or communism.

I'll give you a real life example. There's a country in the Middle East that was secular and progressive for many decades, making great progress in modernization, education, women's rights, human rights, freedom of religion, freedom to have consensual sex w/ whoever, freedom of speech, great material progress, etc. People thought religion was a problem of the past - it didn't matter what religion you are... Christians, Jews, Muslims, Baha'i, Zoroastrians, agnostics, atheists - all got along just fine, because people were focused on progress, education, making money, and enjoying life. People laughed at the clergy: "those guys are idiots, they're backwards, they molest boys", etc.

And then what? The progressive, liberal, secular government was overthrown by a rabid mob of religious fanatics, who hated all that freedom and progress, which they called "sinful". The fanatics were led by an angry, hateful, cruel, scowling old bastard, the spitting image of the Old Testament god. He said society must be run according to "GOD'S LAW". Next thing you know, human rights and women's rights went out the window. Thuggish "religious police" prowled the streets, assaulting anyone they suspected of "sin". They would harass men and women walking together or talking to each other in public - they had to prove they were married or family members, otherwise they could be arrested. Women had to dress modestly or risk a public whipping, or arrest, followed by rape in prison (since they didn't dress modestly, anything could be done to them). Girls wearing lipstick could have their lips slashed w/ razor blades. Women allowing a tuft of hair to fall out of their headscarf could have it yanked right out of their scalp. Homosexuals and anyone else having sex outside of marriage were stoned to death or otherwise executed. Anyone daring to change their religion, or simply renounce their religion would be executed. Anyone challenging the clergy on anything, religious or political, would be arrested, raped, tortured, and/or executed. Girls and women would always be raped before execution, because "virgins can't go to hell", and they wanted to be very sure they went to hell.

This has been going on for 30 years now, and nobody can see how to stop it, because half the population is living in superstition and the other half in terror. This government has tortured and executed more people than any other government except the Chinese communists, which of course have a much bigger population to terrorize. Most of the progress of the previous 60 years has been undone, and the population is falling back into poverty and hopelessness, because the government is more concerned with theology and holy war than with irrelevant worldly stuff like economics or "progress".

This is what is meant by "dark ages" - it's what happens when religious people take over society. This is what Europe suffered for 1,000 years, while the Christian church had political power. People were tortured and burned to death at the stake for all kinds of "sins", none of which we would consider crimes today - ridiculous stuff like "heresy" and "apostasy".

You think that can't happen here again? Think again. Nobody in Iran could've imagined what was about to happen to them in 1979. Even the religious people who supported the new government were shocked - like Christians, they had no idea what their religion was really about. They thought it was just about being a nice person or something.

No. Not at all. BIG mistake.

I'm agnostic. To me it's this simple. Christians/believers say they KNOW God exists. Atheists say they KNOW God doesn't exist. Agnostics are the only ones that have it right: either he does or he doesn't. Agnostics can't be wrong!

Most atheists say they do not believe that God, god or the gods exist which is not the same as saying they don't exist. And there is a good reason for an atheist not believing. There is not a shred of substantial empirical evidence for the existence of God, god or the gods. The argument from design is not conclusive and does not carry the proposition.

There is also the Problem of Evil. If Evil exists and God exists then either God can prevent it , but doesn't, or God can't prevent it so God is omnipotent. The Problem of Evil is the Achilles heel of every monotheistic faith.

ruveyn

Here is the thing though. People SHOULD be able to practice their religions as long as they dont force it down others throats. And as ive somewhat stated, human nature wouldnt allow it. Really, for it to work your gonna need very strict laws in order to keep the fragile peace. And as I said, I find atheists guilty of the same entire thing, a large portion are just as ignorant of peoples basic rights. I have witnesses quite a few in my time doing everything in their damn power to dehumanize those who do have beliefs of some sort.

In Iran people should have looked to the past and put up measures to prevent their problems from happening. Regardless of your arguement, I still think the real solution has to be a compromise. Totally f**k over one side of the arguement and you WILL have those who resent it to its roots.

So what if you try to critise the "Illogicalness" of it all. Humans dont follow rules of logic and reason. And really, If the answe4r matters so much, the answer itself could be a source of a huge amount of violence if it favors one side over the other. Truest me, Humans tend to react in that capacity.

My main point being to this whole debate: Regardless of the existence or non-existence. People need to learn to not stamp on others beliefs, and I can say with certainty, both sides are guilty of it.


and really even though I dont follow a specific faith, I am about 50/50 for and against public displays of affection for only one reason. It is because I personally know a large amount of singles who get highly irritated to hell because of it. Its simply a respect for singles thing in my book. Consider that wrong, I honestly don't give a f**k.

DemonAbyss10 i do not know why you have become so agressive and it is only proof of what i have said. without god you have lead a very angry life which has made you prone to outburst such as tehse. it does not lend credence to your argumenet for you to be an angry jerk, and as there are children on these boreds i would ask you to please refrain from such uncalled for profanity. as to what you have said about this thread degenerating...it was fine before you got hear, so lets please return to a respectful debate rather than childish rantings. you may be an aspie or even a full auty but that does not give you the right to be as ignorant as you have been.

Ach, akhi, Bruder mein, respect is the one thing the Aasvoegel will not let us have on such a subject.

(sung to 'Its a long, long, way to Tipperary')

Religion will be a thing of the past
In the future, on Sunday mornings
People just wont be assed
Science and technology
Will become the new mythology
Vatican City
Wont be pretty
Bankers gather there
Hoping some money is left in the kitty
Governments will need to find
New tools to corrupt our minds
As the future beckons
Beliefs shaped, for that NEW big daddy connection

I have struggled with my religious beliefs a bit. This has concerned me, and I have taken a journey of sorts through who I am in reference to my religious beliefs. I respect other people's statements of their beliefs as long as they are respectful of other respectful statements on religion.

I can say that I have discovered that the more my religious beliefs are criticized, the stronger my faith is for my religious beliefs. This has been important to me, for it has strengthened me in my religious beliefs.

I am with ThomasL and I agree with a lot of his points. I grew up in a Christian household and was "saved", confessed my sins asked Jesus to come into my heart. It took many miserable years, but I finally realized that "faith" is just about squashing any doubt that a logical person has. And telling someone that having doubt it is all because of our "sinful" nature is like saying if I question your perception or motives I am internally faulty for it. Thus my "thoughts" and "perceptions" are wrong and ultimately you would be right. Faith is all about denying the "process of thought" (cognition) which is detrimental to growth. It is not "sinful" to have doubts or to question ideas or events. This goes against "free will".

And you can't give credit to someone else for what I have done. (This is a tactic used for covert manipulation). I.E. god didn't give me my car I earned it. Saying god did this is saying he has direct control over my actions, my thoughts, my environment, etc. This goes against "free will". Nor can you blame me for something someone else hasn't done. I.E. god didn't answer my prayer because... This is saying I have control over god's actions. And it is not reasonable to continue to rationalize a lack of direct interaction from a "personable" god. We hold "imperfect" humans to higher standards than that. Seems a god would have the same standards or higher than us since we are supposedly a creation of god's thoughts and god is our "role model". The same goes for sending such an important message of "salvation". If someone's life and well-being were in the balance it wouldn't make any sense to send a sinful and imperfect human "child of god" to pass along the message when god is perfectly capable of doing it. The standard is again lower than what we expect from ourselves as humans. And why would a perfect god create something "sinful" or imperfect? A creation is only what the creator made of it. And as humans we don't leave our child with a "book" or another child to teach what is expected. You can only learn so much out of a book and in our society it would be classified neglect if we did what god does. Why are humans held to so much higher standards than god? A "role model" needs to model the behavior expected.


"Free will" and god having control does not mix. Being merciful and revengeful does not mix. Love and hate does not mix. etc As for the Bible, you can't just "pick and choose" what a message really says. If the facts don't add up, it isn't true.

Sorry but religions like Christianity and Islam are cults. Give Scientology a few centuries lol

Im not being ignorant. Some people do have bad days and just let it all out at once. Really, Anger and the s**t that I did doesn't negate my view. So yeah. And maybe some people are just more sensitive to certain tones than others so really. Plus I can say that you calling those who go by the theory of evolution, such as myself, as evilutionists. Maybe it was a typo, but that can really be a point of contention for some people. Just saying.

And what proof do you have that belief in god prevents "ANGRY LIVES". I see no proof at all. Even you "proper god fearing <insert respective religion here> still experiences emotions and I can guarantee that EVERYONE has at one point or another totally freaked.


You also just demonstrated a valid point as to why I dislike Christians at times. The whole fact they are ignorant to human nature and act that if you dont believe in their god you are an anger ridden wreck and that is why their life sucks. Really... learn how the world really works. Its not because of a non-belief in god. Its because the individual made a choice.


And as to best sum up my own beliefs, look up Agnostic Neutralism. Go ahead and "enlighten" yourself. Yeah, call me a fence sitter or whatever, I just really don't care. Just don't call me ignorant just because I had a mini-meltdown. All it does is prove that you yourself need to listen to what you preach as well as learn that EVERYONE makes mistakes.

Well, I think you're right for the most part. And I think the American founding fathers found that balance, and those strict laws when they decided to prohibit government from passing any laws either establishing or prohibiting religion. In this country, government and religion are supposed to be separate, precisely so that people can believe whatever they want, but cannot force their beliefs down others' throats. It's both freedom of religion AND freedom from religion. It's served this country well for more than 200 years.

But apparently that's not good enough for some religious people, who want to turn this into a "Christian Country" in the same way that clerics turned Iran into an "Islamic Republic". I've never heard atheists say they want to turn America into an atheist country and ban religion. Never heard it. But a lot of Christians want forced Christian prayer in every school, want the 10 Commandments posted everywhere, want a big-ass cross on top of every mountain and hill and want to criminalize abortion, porn, prostitution, homosexuality, pre-marital and extra-marital sex, and put severe restrictions on freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc.

Frankly, I think freethinkers have good cause to be worried.



I think I know what you mean here, but could you elaborate a bit? Maybe an example or two?

Religious beliefs seem irrational to me, and is often a very dangerous and reactionary force. But I get that the spiritual dimension means does something for most people. It doesn't do anything for me.

I don't understand how an intelligent being can believe in all those acquired religious nonsense.
Practically all religions only want to control sex and food.
Also I find the more religious a person is, the more evil. The nuns from my youth were some of the meanest women I knew.