Are people with autism borderline sociopaths?

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Jediscraps
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19 Nov 2011, 1:45 pm

There's also a thing called inter-subjectivity. i cannot argue this one but it interesting in regard to subjectivism.

There are common rules found throughout to various degrees of implementation. One is self sacrifice and also things like mutual aid and the golden rule.

You spread out values, beside just vauling yourself,bto otgers in tge group or community. You then try to apply them more objectively, in other words impartially. By behaving in such a way you apply moe universal rules or priniciples to your group. Not necessarily perfectly, and probably not outside of group.

Universal golden rules by some religious figures were to expand beyond group inclusion.



Jediscraps
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19 Nov 2011, 1:47 pm

Its an interesting topic to me because i keep thinking about it because i cant fully comprehend it drives me to keep thinking.



hyperlexian
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19 Nov 2011, 2:12 pm

Burnbridge wrote:
Jediscraps wrote:
Reducing everything down to chemicals. I've seen it argued that reductionism could be to control phenomena by reducing and sort of dismissing. I cannot do that argument. But i think about it.


Yeah, sorry, that's me. Overly pragmatic, systematic and rational. So rational that I developed a "rational refutation of rationality" to justify trusting your instincts.

Sorry about taking everyone on this red herring. I feel like I totally derailed this topic.

it was actually really fun. :oops:

DemonAbyss10 wrote:
Burnbridge wrote:
I'm using the term "emotional selfishness" as taking action with the desire to trigger your chemical emotional reward system, whether that desire be conscious or subconscious.

And likewise, I also believe that desire to be neither good nor bad, but amoral.


basically how I view it. I know what hyperlexians been saying though. But then I also hold the beliefs that morals are in and of themselves subjective. There is no universal ruleset, it is all subjectivism at its finest. I can really twist it around on its head but I wont. Lets just say it involves that good and evil/right and wrong are completely subjective. Need I bring up the phrase Well-intentioned Extremist?

i was reading that our morals (and even our political leanings!) may be strongly guided if not determined by our genes. it is still in early studies i think. but it is food for thought.

i have extremely strong morals of a very specific type, but i am completely different from the rest of my family. they used to call me "moral" like it was an insult, in fact! but i am am devoid of any religious leanings or faith of any kind. i don't think everything is subjective... otherwise some things wouldn't be so universal. pretty much everyone agrees that murder is wrong, for example. there is always some room for interpretation as life isn't black and white, but the larger questions are pretty much agreed upon.

i have no idea what a well-intentioned extremist is, though. :?:



Asp-Z
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19 Nov 2011, 3:02 pm

DemonAbyss10 wrote:
Exactly the same here. I tend to logic my way into and out of stuff. If it doesnt fit in with logic, well it has no value then to me. I honestly don't believe in true good/kindness. Everyone does something in order to get something. Even the so called people who do good things because it makes them feel good or its the right thing to do. If your doing it because helping others makes y7ou feel good, its still in my line of logic a "selfish" action simply because you get a benefit out of it (IE: feeling good). As for going it because it is the right thing to do? You are most likely doing it to stick to some Faith or moral system you follow. This one falls under being guilted into it because it makes you feel bad, thus you do it in order to not feel bad. Regardless its a selfish action as well because you are trying to prevent yourself from feeling bad.
To put it simply, most people act in order to gain something or prevent negativity within their own psyche. In another sense it basically calling out EVERYONE on being a sociopath, albeit to totally different degrees.

It may not exactly make sense to most people, but it makes sense to me. Its one of those beliefs that you cannot clearly express or express at all in words.


Yep, I'm with you all the way there.



Burnbridge
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19 Nov 2011, 3:17 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
i have extremely strong morals of a very specific type, but i am completely different from the rest of my family. they used to call me "moral" like it was an insult, in fact! but i am am devoid of any religious leanings or faith of any kind.


Yes, I also find myself beholden to very strong, yet esoteric and atheistic, morals. I have never been able to understand how some religious people believe that you can only be moral if you follow a religious doctrine.

hyperlexian wrote:
i have no idea what a well-intentioned extremist is, though.


Sometimes the best intentions unleash the worst tragedies. A theme oft repeated throughout history.

albert camus wrote:
The evil that is in the world almost always comes of ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence if they lack understanding.
Albert Camus

Aldous Huxley wrote:
Hell isn't merely paved with good intentions; it's walled and roofed with them. Yes, and furnished too.

Milton Friedman wrote:
Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it.


whole wikipedia article on the proverb:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_road_to_hell_is_paved_with_good_intentions


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DemonAbyss10
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19 Nov 2011, 5:11 pm

Burnbridge wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
i have no idea what a well-intentioned extremist is, though.


Sometimes the best intentions unleash the worst tragedies. A theme oft repeated throughout history.

albert camus wrote:
The evil that is in the world almost always comes of ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence if they lack understanding.
Albert Camus

Aldous Huxley wrote:
Hell isn't merely paved with good intentions; it's walled and roofed with them. Yes, and furnished too.

Milton Friedman wrote:
Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it.


whole wikipedia article on the proverb:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_road_to_hell_is_paved_with_good_intentions



Couldn't have illustrated my point any better. A good example of good doing wrong has best been implemented in the game, "Knights of the old Republic 2". When you are on Nar Shadaa you can either give this poor guy money. If you give him money it gives other people an excuse to mug/murder him over it (dont remember which). If You Dont give it to him, I think he does the same to someone else. Of Course there is the middle path of force-persuading him to walk off into a pit and die...


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archraphael
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19 Nov 2011, 5:22 pm

No. Sociopaths use social skills to manipulate the social environment.
Autism is a totally different chess game. How ever I would say autistic people can take different 'maneuvers' to try and control the confusing social environment... I find this to be my case....
Strangely enough I move people to be honest about themselves. People have accused me of having DID and psychopathy... If only they stopped projecting and saw those traits in themselves... People just don't want to know the truth about themselves, so they pick a target. Sociopaths target people. Sociopaths lie, cheat, manipulate to get a leg up. etc.



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19 Nov 2011, 11:34 pm

This is a very sensitive issue with me.

You see, I have classic AS, down to the last symptom. But I've learned how to get along in society. I'm not shy. I'm actually almost outgoing to a fault. I may be rather eccentric, but I'm pretty good with people on the first meeting, provided it isn't too long.

This is all an act. I just watch movies and try to act like the people I see. In reality, I understand neither my own emotions, nor anyone else's.

Initially, I fool people. They think I'm just a bit quirky. However, over time the cracks in my mask begin to show. They can't understand my emotional dysfunction and scream sociopath.

Sociopath is an overused word. True sociopaths lack a conscience and do not feel guilty. I am often ruled by guilt and shame, because I hate playing games.I hate having to pretend I'm not baffled by emotional situations for the sake of others.

Only recently diagnosed, I got into the habit of pretending to be normal. But I can only do it for so long.

I HATE being called a sociopath. Nothing hurts me more.

People toss this word around on autism forums a lot and I try to ignore it, but if you've ever called me a sociopath, I wish to congratulate you - you probably did a lot more damage than I would ever admit.


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Last edited by Tambourine-Man on 19 Nov 2011, 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fraac
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19 Nov 2011, 11:48 pm

You're functionally sociopathic. I find it fascinating. In person I would test you.



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19 Nov 2011, 11:50 pm

Burnbridge wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
I was referring to helping other people fr the sake of helping other people, not for personal gain. If you are unempathetic doing such a thing is meaningless.


I've always questioned that motive, personally. Although I do "help people for the sake of helping people," I believe charity to be inherently selfish.

The selfish motive being that a person feels good or needed after helping someone else. How is seeking emotional rewards for behavior morally different (better, more virtuous) from seeking material rewards? I have never understood this paradox. [this is one of those "weird" ideas that make people disown me as a friend after learning]

But, I digress...


Every emotion is the result of a neurochemical reaction; including empathized feelings. You want to feel some intense empathy? Take some MDMA.

People have a tendency to romanticize their feelings, but it's all chemistry. I hate the idea of "good" and "evil" people. That kind of thinking sets us back. It isn't that simple.

I really don't understand absolute terms, which is supposedly weird for an Aspie, everything is gray to me.

Oddly enough, I'm very emotional... too emotional, but I have no idea how to understand and express my emotions in daily life.


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Tambourine-Man
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19 Nov 2011, 11:57 pm

fraac wrote:
You're functionally sociopathic. I find it fascinating. In person I would test you.


Who's a functional sociopath? What's a functional sociopath? Aren't they all functional? What do you mean?

I get confused by that term. People say that I have very high functioning autism, but I can't drive a car and have very severe and dangerous meltdowns. I get confused by social situations, so I just kind of clown around. It's a defense mechanism. When it is time to be serious, I get very logical, not emotional. Emotions bother me. I experience them, but I can never pinpoint exactly what I'm feeling.

I can only intellectually understand the concept that I may be feeling many things at once. I feel guilty and awkward a lot, I think.


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fraac
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20 Nov 2011, 12:12 am

I meant practically, superficially, without regard to your internal states. When you write "I HATE being called a sociopath. Nothing hurts me more" you're still acting, because acting is fundamental to your nature. Mimicking movies is a common autistic method but you're describing a process motivated to unusual lengths either by extreme reaction to childhood stimuli or lack of inhibiting reaction due to a sociopathic limbic system. I think it may be impossible for me to work out the underlying mechanism without testing each hypothesis in person. Hence 'functionally sociopathic'.

FWIW, the smartest people I've known have been functionally sociopathic. Beyond a point it stops being useful determining a 'correct' diagnosis. I only do it out of interest and in case I need to label and isolate someone.



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20 Nov 2011, 12:35 am

fraac wrote:
I meant practically, superficially, without regard to your internal states. When you write "I HATE being called a sociopath. Nothing hurts me more" you're still acting, because acting is fundamental to your nature. Mimicking movies is a common autistic method but you're describing a process motivated to unusual lengths either by extreme reaction to childhood stimuli or lack of inhibiting reaction due to a sociopathic limbic system. I think it may be impossible for me to work out the underlying mechanism without testing each hypothesis in person. Hence 'functionally sociopathic'.

FWIW, the smartest people I've known have been functionally sociopathic. Beyond a point it stops being useful determining a 'correct' diagnosis. I only do it out of interest and in case I need to label and isolate someone.


No, I don't think you understand, I really, really, really, really, really, hate to be called a sociopath, functional or otherwise. That isn't an act. Please don't push that button. I'm very oversensitive and emotional, but I can't process my emotions well. They seem far away... and then they hit me all at once and I freak out.

I cry in movies, but not usually in real life... well, not at the "appropriate" times. I laugh at things I'm not supposed to laugh at and cry for no reason. I act very mature and logical and sometimes I act like a two year old.

Putting aside my sensitivity to that word, I am interested in what you are saying. Does a functional sociopath have weirdly delayed emotions that later overwhelm them and make them freak out? Are they really nervous a lot, but try hard to seem confident and often do ok?

Are you saying all Aspies are functional sociopaths, or just me? And if so, why me? Many Aspies study movies and tv shows to better understand social interaction.

I don't get it. What is your definition of a sociopath? I'm very logical, but often very sensitive and hyper-emotional, then I kind of shut down. I feel guilty very often.


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fraac
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20 Nov 2011, 12:50 am

I've known four aspies I'd think of as functionally sociopathic. Or five - one was odd. They each could be labelled with other conditions. Eventually it's just a lot of words, and like you say all aspies act.

Why do you hate being called functionally sociopathic if, as you'd have to admit, from here there is no way to tell the difference? That doesn't seem rational.



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20 Nov 2011, 12:55 am

fraac wrote:
I've known four aspies I'd think of as functionally sociopathic. Or five - one was odd. They each could be labelled with other conditions. Eventually it's just a lot of words, and like you say all aspies act.

Why do you hate being called functionally sociopathic if, as you'd have to admit, from here there is no way to tell the difference? That doesn't seem rational.


Well, um, it's weird to talk about because I'm not exactly anonymous here.

My girlfriend and I broke up not long ago, and she basically said that I was a sociopathic emotional ret*d who would never be able to have a loving relationship or raise a family.

I wrote about it in one of my articles and she was mad because I left out the mean things we said to each other. I told her that I hated her and that she was the meanest girl I'd ever dated. I didn't mean this... well, I don't hate her, but I did at the time, and she is the meanest girl I've ever dated. She knew how much I worry about not being able to have a family. I want to be a father SO bad.

I ended up obsessing over it, spending six hours researching sociopathy, then had a severe meltdown and had to be sedated.

I don't think sociopaths are overwhelmed with guilt and anxiety when someone calls them a sociopath. Isn't that paradoxical?

This is a very, very, very touchy subject for me.


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20 Nov 2011, 1:08 am

Actually, I think I wish I was a sociopath, because then I would not be so worried about people thinking I was a sociopath.

I often hurt people's feelings on accident and get really defensive and make it worse. I can't stand the thought that I have hurt someone and will try endlessly to explain to people that I did not intent to. This usually results in them feeling invalidated. I'm trying not to do this.


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