Theory of mind?

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At most basic, ToM is thinking about what others are thinking at all, which is automatic for NTs. Someone with really poor ToM wouldn't think that others think what they think, as they wouldn't think about what others think at all.

Again, this is something I don't understand because I know that the non Aspies sometimes get what other people are thinking wrong - and I don't think it's really all that uncommon. In the department I work in we're ALL always walking around saying, WHAT THE HECK WAS SHE THINKING? One woman cries all the time and we don't understand why (I mean she tells us why, but they're not really crying offenses). Another woman goes to our bosses and gets us in trouble, we don't know why she does that. Nobody really knows anybody if you want my opinion. this theory of mind is bullcrap~ =Ha directed at the theory, not you guys.

Right. (did you leave out the word "not" in your first sentence?). They think the other person is kind of inside their own mind, as they are not able to make a certain subject/object discrimination. They don't literally think this, but this is the way they are seeing things.They know he is outside their own body in a physical sense, but they do not see him as an individual from an intellectual perspective.

I think it more applies in the sense of getting or not getting particular gists and also around fine -tuning. They are not fine tuning in certain ways because, as least re object relations theory, to do this would imply their own individuation from the primary caretakers, and they are not able to make that bridge because in this sense it would be too threatening. In a world with less developed distinctions they feel safe. Now if a special interest comes up, that can be a form of internal protection as well as a form of self expression. This dynamic I will get into later, but if true, it is obvious that the special interest would need to override anyone else's special interest because not being thwarted along the line of self protection would be predominant, and it is amazing what supposedly unaware people can see and understand about a contextual situation. They can practically smell if something is about to breakdown their own framework, so if ones special interest and self protection is to BE a person with autism, this can create a double bind, and from this perspective the way out cannot so easily become apparent. If a such a person actually sees the way out begin to appear, then the implication is he will have to go over a bridge which he never learned to make, a non-existent bridge, so terror. I know all about it from my own personal experience.

Basically, if you know that most people lie alot, and have a fairy tail of how life is for them, than you probably have a good theory of mind. If you think otherwise you have a poor theory of mind. I think I get it now. People lie way too much. That is probably why I don't like it very much. It is depressing. Reading into people alot of times is unpleasant to me. Knowing this, I am positive that most people have a poor theory of mind. Not just autistics. This is an era of lies, and deception. If people were soo good at this "theory", I am sure there would be alot less stigmas, racism, lies, and deception. Salesmen would be terrible at their jobs unless they actually had a good product. Good gifts would be given, and people would stop driving me nutz!

It seems to me like this "theory" undermines its own fabric. Like a trick.

I still don't like it. It needs work.

So I'm still watching Gilligan's Island. There's this episode where G finds mind reading seeds. He gives some to all of the other castaways and they are suddenly all reading each others minds and fighting for the first time since they landed on the island.

Examples of what they read on each others minds:

Ginger and Mary Ann read each other thinking they do more work than each other.

When the professor started off on one of his long theories, he read Gilligan thinking his idea was dumb.

The professor read the Skipper thinking he should work more and think less.

Mr. Howell thought his wife is kind of vapid because she didn't have enough thoughts.

I mentioned those because I think they're pretty realistic of things people actually think about in group dynamics, but are never said out loud.

Anyway, Gilligan doesn't like the fighting so he burns the bush they came from hoping that they can "all be friends again." Everyone tells him he did a great thing and they are back to being friends.

But what happened there, because now the professor knows that the Skipper thinks he should work more, Ginger and Mary Ann know the same thing about each other? Mr. Howell still knows his wife is vapid.

I think this really explains a lot about theory of mind. Not that you KNOW what or how somebody else is feeling, but that you are better at playing games of pretending to know. Or just fulfilling a role. If you find out something that puts stress on the role, you sort of turn a blind eye to it. Of course sometimes people hold grudges and the roles come undone - consider when friendships break up - it's like when the fourth wall is broken in the theater - people stopped playing roles and pretending.

Does that make sense?

After all this, I think I understand what you are all talking about. It is something dogs do. They have a poor ToM. If they do something they know they shouldn't when you are gone, you get home, they put their ears down, tail between the legs, feel guilty, and think you know what they did. Possibly? I don't think people do that.