Asperger's is not real

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LOL That made me laugh and think of a t-shirt one of my employees bought me. It said, "I used to be a writer, then I gave up drinking, drugs and deep depression and lost my creativity."

That always makes me laugh.

As to the poster, hey I offend people all the time when I don't mean to do so. I have to assume that other Aspies probably also do this on a regular basis, and those socially adept people are always telling us we should know we are being offensive.

Oh, if we only were paid a dime for every time we did it, we'd all be rich.

I don't think this discussion is a bad thing in and of itself. The only thing I object to is the title of the thread. It's a declaration. Maybe "Is Asperger's Syndrome real?" would be a better way of phrasing. At least to my mind it would be. I was biased against the thread to start with due to my own life experiences. Aspergers is VERY real to me.

There is very little that is "normal" about me. I have spent 50 very frustrating years trying to fit into life. The end result is that even with a 120 IQ, I am an unemployed janitor. The social problems I faced were that bad. I couldn't fit in with the neurotypical world whatsoever.

I went through 2 psychiatrists, 13 psychologists, several clergy, worked on 3 different college degrees, tried religion, tired being an agnostic, tried the martial arts, gosh, you name it. Nothing and nobody could could succeed at making me "normal" by any definition of the word. All it left behind was broken relationships, failed attempts at jobs, degrees, careers, and a totally F-ed up social life---a life of total isolation.

I only was diagnosed 2 months ago. In counter to the notion put forth in this thread, not being labled is what caused the stress in my life. Those of us who are older never had the benefits of being diagnosed and treated or receiving special education or any other kind of intervention. We just had to suck it. No label existed, and we slipped through every crack imaginable in the education, health care, and mental health system. Not having had an accurate label or no label at all hurt me and kept me from getting any kind of help. The only thing not having a label gave me was everyone's contempt.

Finally getting a label and an accurate one at that has been liberating to me. Was it because I wanted to be special? Far from it. I just wanted to be thought of and treated fairly. And ironically, everybody in my life from family, spouse, friends, coworkers, whomever, all knew without a doubt that there was some VERY different things about me. Being unlabled was the thing that really put me in a special catagory: just an a**hole with an bad attitude. Now, we know that it wasn't attitude that was the problem. It was apptitude. Aspergers because I want to be special and different? That's an insult.

An unawareness of others emotions (not ignoring emotions, just not expecting them) is typical of AS. I discovered that people have emotions in 2003 or so, and before then I was unaware of my unawareness. I only saw emotions when people looked emotional, I just didn’t think about people's feelings outside of emotional displays.

For example...

A few years ago friend helped me notice that I was making a person I was talking to very angry. She looked over his shoulder, from behind him, and pointed downwards towards the floor. I didn’t know what she was pointing at, for a moment. Then I looked down and noticed that his knuckles had gone white and his fist was shaking – with anger! He was so angry he was very close to hitting me (I was later told).

He was a very religious man. I simply told him that Jesus was just an ordinary bloke who married Mary Magdalene and that religion was a delusional Meme, and that he should be a devout atheist like me. It was not like I was denying the existence of AS.

AspieDoug,

FORGET religion! It is unlikely any of them will even TRY to help you. What kind of degrees have you tried to get? What were your goals? With a 120 IQ and reasonable physical ability, you should be able to do FAR better than janitor. For all I know, you could lack enough physical ability, etc..., but I would LOVE to see if I could help!

That said, I was once told I should be able to make at least TWICE what I am, etc.... And I think all the failings could be tracked to obsessions, temperment, and social shortcomings from AS. But I AM making several times the national average with one white collar job though. THAT comes real simple to me, it is almost childishly simple, and I think THAT is mostly because of AS.

Steve

One other thing about this topic. I think as we all state our cases, we want to be heard and empathized with......empathy from Apsies? Thats like asking for extra life boats on the Titanic after the boat starts sinking....it just aint gonna happen.

Well, actually I had two other things....in terms of this counter argument for "neurodiversity" that is seeking to put Aspergers back on the "variation of normal" shelf, well, I can say this about me: I walk different, kind of duck-like. I have an odd, slouchy posture. I can't meet another person's gaze when talking to save my life. I have an extra-large head (size 8 1/2 hat size) with a long droopy face. My voice isn't strong or clear no matter how hard I try to talk loudly and clearly. I can't walk without often tripping over my own feet. Driving is terrifying to me due the sensory overload. I have obsessive checking routines......I could go on and on. The point is, what is "normal" about the things I have listed? I'd be hard pressed to see a combination of those things in any one else I know or have known.....except for the small group of adult Aspies I met. They had all those characteristics going on, and some had even more distinguishing issues.

Make of it as you will. Believe what you want. If you don't want to be labeled Aspergers, then don't be. But leave those of us who benefit from such a label to have our label. Being diagnosed with Aspergers changed my life for the better. Now all the odd things and struggles make sense. A half-century is a long time to go without answers.

This one: "But, I think it's important (even though somewhat anti-Aspie) to think about how others will react to our choice of words even though they are literally accurate. What I mean is that you stated what you were told and now accepted. But, sometimes we have to just rephrase to get a meaningful discussion going. "My doctor just said AS isn't real" That would get it going without all the hostility. This is something I struggle with myself. I'm not good at putting myself in other people's shoes or even understanding why I should for that matter. I've actually found out that it is a very Aspie trait. I just thought it was my INTJ personality. Maybe I have the double whammy. Maybe you do too. "

Made me stop and think...I often write or say things in a manner that doesn't come across the way I *truly* mean them, and have, in the past, offended others without intending to.

You rock, ZanneMarie.

God, I hope this post doesn't come out idiotic,,,I've been drinking since noon...My husband's Irish, you see... On St. Patty's day, we just ignore the fact he's also Native American, and Swedish...

All right, I'm out of here before I make more of a buffoon of myself. Or bombard you all with more ellipses.

Steve,

I got a bachelors in applied psychology. I never had very good physical abilities. I tried to go and get two different master's degrees in rehabilitation counseling and later in counseling.....for various reasons it didn't work out. I could do the coursework okay, but the interpersonal stuff killed me. To be a counselor obviously one has to have all the theory of mind stuff going on. But, I didn't know anything about Aspergers then.

I went down that road because an assement for learning disabilities showed that I had good verbal abilities. I never seemed to be good at math---statistics was a killer for me. I think it may have been a math phobia more than a lack of ability. It turned out that through some of that coursework---never a waste---I could write pretty decent. Thats what I am looking at now as a possibilty for future work, being a writer. I have one possible lead on this very topic of Aspergers, what it is like to get that diagnosis in middle age.

I am fortunate enough that I can take some time and play with things. My wife has a good job so the financial need is not pressing. I would like to do something more productive with my life than cleaning other people's toilets, that's for sure. My wife, now there's someone who could speak to how different I am. She's been with me for 27 years---she's had the patience of a saint!

In regards to religion, yeah, it's kind of sad. Religious people are not going to be understanding or supportive. Too bad they don't always practice what they preach.

It really made sense to me what ZanneMarie said. I was sort of drunk when I posted it last night which isn't an excuse but I get even more blunt (as if I'm not blunt enough in real life) when I'm like that. I get to the point I'm trying to find out about and sometimes I agree I guess I don't think about how it might affect somebody else. I definitely agree with the part that if the diagnosis works for you and helps you deal with life better than no one should complain. And sorry because I didn't even realize what I said would be considered talking against others, I was just saying it in reference to myself that's how I usually talk....and when I see some people putting others in a negative category I stand up for them and I noticed people on here talk bad about so-called "NTs" and I know a lot of nice people different than me and just think it's all relative that's all........

By physical ability I meant like able to sit still, type, speak ok. Nothing requiring a lot of strength or effort for most people.

The degrees you have don't have a lot of versatility outside of similar professions, but they still give you some flexibility from possibly being a school counselor to a psychologist. Actually, MOST seem to lack any real personal skills I can see. You might even be BETTER because ***YOU*** might care more. Of course, the problem IS getting through the interview.

The fact that you have a wife is a BIG plus. Even MORE so that she is SUPPORTIVE!

BTW I made a LOT of stupid mistakes ALSO, that I wouldn't have made if I knew about AS! I would have been HAPPILY RETIRED by now!! !

Steve

I really don't think that 3, 4 and 5 year olds are looking for a "mob mentality" clan to join. I'm interested to hear your theory on "aspies" that aren't old enough to understand the sociology behind "mobs". Also, does this strike you as fairly contradictory when aspergers is based around a type of social singularity and self isolation through not understanding where the rest of the world is coming from?

Seems to be a lot of drinking going on this weekend. Could it be Saint Patty's day? LOL

I have the blunt problem myself. I'll say things that I think I'm just saying and the other person feels like I just beat it into them with the hammer of my point.

I'm also married to a NT so I take it kind of personal sometimes when people go off on them. I like him, my family, and my two NT best friends, so I get touchy about it. But, I think when you see that, you have to remember that it probably came out of years abuse where the person couldn't read NTs and couldn't trust most that they came into contact with (probably bullies because most NTs otherwise just avoid us or try to be nice to us even if it fails) hurt them and they couldn't see it coming. It makes a person paranoid after awhile and very angry. I just try to keep things on an even keel then by pointing out the good NTs I know that don't act like that. If they're very emotional over their own experiences, getting all over them because we personally feel defensive for our own NTs won't help. So, to make the change, we have to patiently describe it, even if that isn't our nature. It's not mine and doesn't sound like it's yours. You're probably like me and have to constantly remind yourself to put on your nice voice (or posting font as it were). It's hard, but I try to do it. I just try to picture them as the kid who was picked on. Not everyone had my luck to have five brothers to defend her and beat up any would be bullies.

I think that's also the reason they seek out the group. After all that, they just need to know that they aren't the only ones. Maybe they were the only one in school, at their job, in the PTA meeting. Maybe they felt they were the only person on earth who felt like this. So they come here. Maybe like me, they are just trying to figure it all out and ask some questions.

So just try to experience that NT defense mechanism and relax (or that's what I tell myself LOL). Just say, Hey! Wasn't I the lucky one and thank whoever or whatever you want to thank for that. If you found things that worked because of your experiences, ignore the irritating stuff, be glad you are where you are now and throw in some tidbits to see if they can help someone else who didn't have your good fortune. Sometimes that is all we can do, but that's enough.

Again, just some things I thought of as I saw your post. Just my own opinions, but perhaps they will help.

Don't drink too much green beer.

Zanne

Yeah, it is all relative.

Of the seeming anti-NT comments you'll see around, I think they fall mainly into two categories:

(1) We appreciate and celebrate our strengths. This doesn't mean that other people are bad, it just means that we're happy with how we are. Celebrating strengths which we don't have is best left to others.

(2) We don't appreciate being treated badly. Many of us have had our share of that, and may still be having it. In this case it's not so much a statement that NTs are messed up as it is that a significant percentage of the human race is kind of messed up, and it's an NT society. If we were 99.5% of humanity, and NTs were 0.5%, would we treat them the same way they treat us? Maybe, but that's vague and speculative, a ghostly abstract. The memories of being called names, attacked, and so on are much more vivid and real, so you're bound to see some anger, some resentment, some gut reaction sort of stuff from time to time. It may not be pretty, or even logical, but it's not without reason. Like yourself, most of us think that toleration of different sorts of people is a very valuable thing, we only wish we'd experienced more of it ourselves.

Whatever your diagnosis is, and whatever you think about it, you are exactly as justified and special as you've always been -- no more, no less. No word or label will hurt who you are, so I hope that you can avoid stressing over it.

Occam here.

It seems everyone agrees that something exists. The vast majority of Professionals call it AS.

It is all new to me but I did identify with this group like no other in my life, 60 years. I do not relate to the lable, for I cannot find a matched pair here. A common theme yes. A group identity yes. A sameness evades me.

The best I have gathered is no known cause, or treatment, or cure. A good Doctor would say, work on your weaknesses, find a place to fit in, for that is all you can do. That is what most here do. Like any group, some take antidepresants. Tranks, sleeping aids, but I think most do not. There is no general treatment.

So why would one tell you, it is AS, and another not. Could it be that AS has no treatment, which seems to be agreed on? I have read hundreds of stories, got Dxed, never a mention of going back, or of ongoing treatment. It seems to not be standard medical proceedure, hence, no one, insurance, the State, would pay for it.

Then along comes someone, who many here doubt, that says, Not AS, but just the same symptoms, which can be treated and generate billible hours? That is for you to know, if you now fill Monday at 3:00, being treated for your, other conditions, I would think an economic motive is involved.

Did your first doctor recommend any treatment, or was it like the others here say, AS, live with it?

Have you been re Dxed to make you profitable?

This claim that AS does not exist goes against the whole medical record. I am sure it does exist. All of medicine, 10,000 here, Social Security who considers it a disability. Could we all be wrong?

One woman says otherwise. Only you would know if she has had economic gain from doing so. If she said you do not have it, that could be opinion. If she said it does not exist, that is fraud, exploiting the trust of a patient, and malpratice.

Standards are set by the Profession. Saying known things do not exist, the incurable can be cured, and selling magic charms, is best reported to the Profession.

Aside from some personal reactions, understandable in this forum, you have seven pages of people saying it exists beyond doubt. There is a solid body of medical evidence. It is accepted by the highest Professional Boards, Social Security requires evidence of a dibilitating condition and accepts AS.

Then there is one woman's opinion. Only you can know the truth. I hope we all have been of help.

Let's see!: If **I** was king!

1. Alarms and everything else would be quieter!
2. Lights would be incandescent or some other way made to not blink, and have the proper light!
3. Paths would be wider!
4. Laws would be made reasonable and ENFORCED!
5. Lawyers intentionally trying to skirt a law would be subject to its punishment.
6. Age of accountability would be lowered to 10.

So HEY, things would be more peaceful, healthy, quieter, etc... SO WHAT if a 10 year old guilty of murder could get life? SO WHAT if a crazy person would be treated like s/he did the crime s/he did? SO WHAT if any lawyer lying to get his client off for murder would end up getting thrown in jail for life.(HEY, HONEST lawyers!)

Steve

I figured thats what you were saying.

In my life it has been very important to identify neurotypical traits and thought patterns, for those rare moments that NTs actually think (hahaha, just kidding, jury please ignore that last remark and strike it from the record).

Seriously though, its an important discussion. Different neuroprocessing traits does not make us a different species.

Unfortunately its a NT dominated world, and theres a very narrow scope of what is considered acceptable behaviour, and much of whats accepted is questionable to an AS as is. So theres alot to understand.

Here's a towel for all those the beers I threw at you. Personally, I'm not one to believe that alchohol releases anything that isn't there already, nonetheless I do understand the filter becomes a little less effective. Look, I can't remember who said it exactly first, but I also think there might be something to both diagnosises you received (except the part about "no such thing as Asperger's") that perhaps the psych is right from his angle, seeing perhaps myriad co-morbid symptoms, which if you ask around are pretty typical, and the original diagnosis is right, since you seemed to have such difficulty understanding the impact of your actions. If I were you, I might print up this whole online exchange, and go get yourself a third opinion. Again, sorry if I was a little harsh, I can be that way about ANYTHING that has anything to do with my daughter - just the protector in me.