Maxine Aston and other researchers

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Ah, but we're all part of the problem. And if you spend too much time here, you will inevitably catch Cassandra Complex. Also, it sounds like they've been expecting us:



also


NT's are perfectly capable of emotionally depriving others. It's even worse that they when they do it, they must be doing it through choice. Are the effects of long-term emotional deprivation worse than the effects of long-term teasing, bullying and victimisation? Perhaps if the world showed more commitment to eliminating the latter evils, the former may just work itself out?



There's so much irony in that! There are loads of skilled AS workers who find themselves ignored as their colleagues and bosses ignore the blunt, but accurate, reality we provide, in favour of the opinion of the one with the best body language and highest social status. Many times have I left meetings knowing full well that I have given the truth but have not even been listened too, let alone believed.


Anything but the Pink Cardigan!! !

I've discovered a new personality disorder this very day. It seems to affect mostly women who can't stop complaining about their disobedient partners who will *not* do as they're told. These women have an internal container of emotions that appears to bottomless as whatever anyone does to provide 'emotional support' for them, it is never enough. These women are also never satisfied with the work and salary of their partner. They are always seeking out someone who is richer so they can accuse their partner of 'not working hard enough'. They must continually be told they are the best at every single aspect of life, despite this being blatantly untrue. The disorder is called Control Obsessed Woman syndrome, or COWS.

The husbands of these women generally suffer in silence, however long term loss of self-esteem and serious depression are the price of living with someone with COWS. Occasionally they just disappear entirely, suicide is probably more common, sadly. My research (conducted in the Queens Head public house) shows that 78% of men have contemplated 'just walking out' at some point. While 60% agree with the statement "as long as someone else has MORE than her, my wife will never be happy". This shows how COWS permeate our society (maybe this is trivialising it as the usual gender differences?)

Look for a group workshop coming soon to your town.

sure it will Harry! sure it will!

Woodpecker..............I think you are being very kind when you say insulting................I would add to that, offensive, unprofessional, devious, manipulative and isn't it misconduct?

[quote="ManErg]
I've discovered a new personality disorder this very day. It seems to affect mostly women who can't stop complaining about their disobedient partners who will *not* do as they're told. These women have an internal container of emotions that appears to bottomless as whatever anyone does to provide 'emotional support' for them, it is never enough. These women are also never satisfied with the work and salary of their partner. They are always seeking out someone who is richer so they can accuse their partner of 'not working hard enough'. They must continually be told they are the best at every single aspect of life, despite this being blatantly untrue. The disorder is called Control Obsessed Woman syndrome, or COWS.

The husbands of these women generally suffer in silence, however long term loss of self-esteem and serious depression are the price of living with someone with COWS. Occasionally they just disappear entirely, suicide is probably more common, sadly. My research (conducted in the Queens Head public house) shows that 78% of men have contemplated 'just walking out' at some point. While 60% agree with the statement "as long as someone else has MORE than her, my wife will never be happy". This shows how COWS permeate our society (maybe this is trivialising it as the usual gender differences?)

Look for a group workshop coming soon to your town.[/quote]



Who needs entertainment when you have WP and you and Harry!! Ooh my ribs are aching.............I am actually thinking that COW syndrome may make me some money..........................Mmmmm, now what can that stand for..........................I know Can Of Worms..............disorder..........next trick, getting it into DSM1V!

Not only is it not in the DSM, it has never gone through the scientific process and has never been submitted to any type of peer review at all. She also lifted most of CAD right out of Seasonal Affective Disorder, almost word for word in some areas. Aston is a hack with NO training in ASD or AS at all, she simply saw a way to make some bucks and a name for herself. She and FAAAS have done incalculable damage to aspies and continue to do so.

I have to agree Westernwild that your comments do appear to be accurate.

I am grateful for this thread, for it has provoked debate and discussion on a very valuable topic.

Many concerns have been raised in this thread, concerns that till now I was unaware EVEN EXISTED. What is going on? Who can diagnose 'legitimately'? Who are we giving our money to? Who are we referring friends, clients, family to? Aaaaagh. Can anyone invent a 'disorder' that actually isn't a disorder at all? Who can we trust? For many on the spectrum vulnerability is a way of life.............I know many on the spectrum, myself included who have been wooed with words, false promises and false hope only to have it shattered in the most violent of ways. How many times have I looked back and realised I had been had? Too many Many on the spectrum are on low incomes, struggling to survive yet scrimp and save to go to ....................who? and for what? Only to find that actually we have NOTHING to show for it? I for one take NO money for the service we provide..............tender loving care, advice, signposting to Dx and other depts, understanding and above all a genuine heartfelt smile.

But now I have learned the hard way not to take everything as read, I question and challenge now. Empirical evidence has become a household word in my family. Don't say ANYTHING less you can back it up! Don't promise anything unless you know you can KEEP that promise.

If there is anyone out there who can provide the hard evidence I cannot accept in any way MA's Cassandra blurb just doesn't exist.

I am actually really upset and disappointed to have learned all this. Very upset. Sorry

But seriously, folks....

Thinking about it some more, the part of CADD about "not being believed" strikes me as particularly ironic. Maybe ironic is not the word, maybe 'outrageous' is a better fit. I'd certainly like to see it proved that "nobody is believing the partners of Aspies". Clearly MA believes more or less everything they say.

Surely it's the Aspies who are not listened to, not even heard, let alone believed? MA has spent time with a lot of couples, most of which have an AS man and NT woman. The result of this is that she appears to be now ignoring the AS partner and shifting attention to the NT partner. Who's not being heard?

We have around a 50% failure rate of marriage, I assume long term relationships failure rate is higher. AS/NT relationships can only be a tiny propertion of this. Now what do we find if we look at the bulk of marriages that are failing? This should be our control group and if CADD has any substance it must be compared with a control group. I believe you'd find a lot of NT wives saying *exactly* the same things about their NT ex-partners. And you find a lot of NT men saying their ex-wives 'demanded too much' of them, too. For sure you find many unhappy people in long term relationships who are showing the symptoms of CADD, or depression as the rest of the world calls it. Has anybody compared the % of women with NT partners who are depressed to the % with AS partners? Has anybody followed up both NT and AS partners in the next relationships after the separation? One would expect an AS man to leave a trail of NT CADD sufferers in his wake, has this been verified?

I cannot forget what I've seen on the "suffering partners of Aspies" forums. Page after page of hatred and vitriol written mostly by people who appeared unwilling to accept *any* responsibility for their relationship problems, let alone 50%. These people want to blame their partner 100% and CADD gives them the 'science' to do it.

The whole issue is very nebulous when compared to, say, illness caused by virus. You can't have measles or flu without presence of the measles or flu virus. The cause of the depression being experienced by the NT wives MA is working with is totally subjective. It certainly can happen in complete absence of the AS male 'virus'. So who can say that the AS male *caused* it when it can be caused by so many other things?

Another thing. I've read that depression has a lot to do with an ongoing mismatch between expectations and reality. Has MA done an in-depth objective study of the *expectations* of the NT women? I've also read that depression can be caused by repressed anger. Has MA studied the NT women for the possibility of repressed anger? She has suggested that NT partners of AS men may have more anger than the norm. Next question is what is the source of the anger? We can not simply assume it is directly provoked by the AS male. MA also suggests, but perhaps doesn't really follow up, that NT wives experienced higher rates of abuse than the norm, prior to meeting their AS partner. In fact that's mentioned several times as a key factor in getting the relationship started: "he was gentle and respectful, not aggressive and dominant like all the others". Just maybe the source of the anger came a long time before the AS man appeared and his desire to avoid confrontation at all costs has provided a safe outlet for that anger?

Relationships largely happen in private. You can only learn so much talking to couples in a therapeutic or research situation. People who are better communicators (NT wives?) will take that into the consulting room and are more likely to have their word accepted without challenge. People who are not such good communicators (AS husbands?) will also take that into the consulting room and are less likely to have their word accepted. Most of us know that's the way it is and this must also happen to some extent with MA and other researchers. Without 24 hour hidden cameras, nobody *really* knows what's happening behind closed doors.

Whats sad is that I bought and read her book on AS in relationships expecting it could provide some insight and ideas to help. It didn't at all as by the time I got to the end, the bias was so clearly on the heartbreaking stories of the NT partners of AS men, that I felt more despair than hope. Oddly, in her book, she is nowhere near so harsh in her assessment of AS females, often stating how much harder life is for them than the cold, mean, cruel AS men.

MA does not appear to be transcending her personal bias, which is primarily toawrds 'female' and then towards 'NT'. This does not make for genuine, objective science, as the key thing is to examine reality, not your personal bias. And we all know that NT's struggle with that and Aspies generally make the best scientists

As CADD is not a disease, but a proposed *cause* of an already well known illness (depression). Depression is very complex and doctors do not have complete, provable models of the causes, let alone foolproof cures. Hence I can see the appeal of simple solutions like CADD. I challenge that the sole or even major cause of these peoples depression is being in relationship with an AS partner. I believe that many of the causes can be traced to problems in the psyche of the suffer that existed *prior* to meeting the AS person. These problems may play a large part in the NT person taking up with an (often siginificantly rejected) AS person in the first place. I also believe that the sufferers of CADD may have higher expectations of what a partner should provide and do for them. This will have caused relationship problems prior to meeting the Aspie and also will explain why they got involved with someone largely shunned by those with 'normal' expectations.

Oh I do like to monologue to start the day...

and also will explain why they got involved with someone largely shunned by those with 'normal' expectations.

Well said.

When I first posted on this thread, I didn´t know much about Maxine Aston; I had only read her book, but disregarded much of the information as she seemed to be someone who didn´t know that much about AS- (as well as taking a few points that seemed to apply to me). Boy, the more I read about her here, the more angry I get! It sounds like she really has some kind of a problem with men. (AS- or maybe all?) It´s not objective, what she writes; therefore, I wonder if it´s personal. I guess it´s not really in my place to delve into the personal life of Maxine Aston, but all this stuff does make one wonder....

Ditto Morgana, but the more I delve the more I don't like what I am seeing!

I have a slight problemo everyone, a conundrum that I wondered if you could all help me with? Please bear with me whilst I sqeeze into my pink neurotypical costume...........I have one in the wardrobe somewhere! Indulge me please.

Let's IMAGINE..................Hypothetical situation so please bear that in mind when you read!!

Ok I am in a lovely pink cardie and matching pleated skirt...........crikey bit of a squeeze, but for just a moment I have become an NT! Everyone with me so far..............
As an NT with a lot of Aspie friends, I have become very well informed about what makes Aspies tick. A mate of mine for example it at University and needed her diagnosis to get her special facilities, mentors and possibly Disability Living Allowance? For my overseas cousins everywhere, DLA is a benefit that is given to those with special needs from the state. The benefit is paid 4wkly into your account. There are different rates but on average it would be approx £200 month. That is AVERAGE. Calculations will vary from one to one.

So I as a NT go to Maxine Aston....................easy for me, I know what she is going to ask me and I know what answers to give! It isn't a problem as I am doing Drama on my course...........................SO, my question, my dilemma........................I could walk away with a Dx for Aspergers Syndrome..............perfect, now I can access services......................

Who is at fault?
Me?
OR
The duck (quack) who diagnosed me??

Why don't NT's try it!

Your thoughts?

Could a Mod please delete my posts from this thread? (and the quotes people copied, if possible.)

I no longer want to be associated with it, and it won't allow me to edit the posts myself.

There is a difference between honesty and outright bashing.

Thanks.

Disappointing that some posts are becoming insulting and personal towards Maxine Aston.

After reading much of what Aston has to say about the Cassandra Effect(alexithymic emotional profile) in relation to Undx males with autism/AS, I believe she makes valid comment. The Cassandra Effect can apply to other non ASD people in a relationship with Alexithymia levels.

Rejecting a theory because it is not reviewed by a scientific body or the author has no Dr, Phd ect after their name lacks substance. Best to examine and investigate the work yourself before passing judgement on its validity. How many ASD people making comments on this post have spoken to either partners of a relationship where the non ASD person has sufferred from the Cassandra Effect.

Some of Aston's assumptions I disagree with, but her theory of CAAD pertaining to Undx AS males in a relationship has merit. My own experience in a relationship with a female, non ASD, draws striking similarities to CADD. My view is that my wife over our 23yrs of marriage sufferred the symptoms.

Sleep problems: Usually desire to oversleep and difficulty staying awake but in some cases, disturbed sleep and early morning wakening

Lethargy: Feeling of fatigue and inability to carry out normal routine

Overeating: Craving for carbohydrates and sweet foods, usually resulting in weight gain

Depression: Feelings of misery, guilt and loss of self-esteem, sometimes hopelessness and despair, sometimes apathy and loss of feelings

Social problems: Irritability and desire to avoid social contact

Anxiety: Tension and inability to tolerate stress

Loss of libido: Decreased interest in sex and physical contact

Mood changes: In some sufferers, extremes of mood and short periods of hypomania (over activity) in spring and autumn.

I believe my children sufferred greatly from my Alexithymia and no matter how often they tried to have a moment of emotional closeness with me, confusion and stress were my emotions. They were never praised and their achievements were rarely acknowledged. Annalysing and critisizing their actions, behaviour and academic abilities was their major interaction with dad.

If you believe this is an isolated occurrence in long term relationships with Undx male AS and female non ASDs you are wrong. AS diagnoses has changed my relationship with my family towards the positive. Marriage counselling and awareness with an AS specialist psychologist has helped both my wife and I understand our challenges and coping straegies. After speaking to other AS males diagnosed late in life who experienced similar scenarios in their marriages I feel no blame or shame. My neurological differences(Thinking) have caused the relationship difficulties with my family.

However, I have no tolerence for the groups who perpetuate a campaign of hatred and insults towards AS males from their negative relationship experiences. They just cannot move on and begin a blame game for some of their own inadequacies. When does a person take responsibility for their own actions or inactions in a relationship and decide the best outcome for the family is to leave the partner. Why do they stay and keep having children?

I do not believe the Cassandra Effect can apply to AS males diagnosed before begining a relationship, provided the female non AS has been told of his neurological condition.

NB: I do not suggest every Undx AS male in a relationship with non ASD female would experience this effect.

Bashing? Who pray tell is doing any bashing..................is getting to the truth and protecting vulnerable folk from what 'appears' questionable/bad practice 'bashing' Why should the rest of us strive to be honourable, slog it at uni, follow guidelines and study all hours when others are getting away with what appears to be unprofessional behaviour

If I were diagnosed by someone with a disorder that DOESN'T exist who actually is not qualified to diagnose anything (Ficticious or Bona Fide) I would want to know..........................but maybe others like to bask in ignorance?

So to those who raised this subject, thank you. And to the board for allowing this thread to continue, we are entitled to ask. Thank you. What in this thread is incorrect? I have been asking for the entire thread..................I am still asking? If I or others on this thread are incorrect.........................then I stand corrected and will apologise. Until then I am still waiting for an explanation AND empirical research to back up ALL she says. That's all? Hate? I hate NOONE. No to me this has been an valuable thread. I prefer to think of it as the HONESTY thread. Don't we deserve to know?

Sorry some appear to have taken a different view. But thanks for your courage in posting. From the poll above it would seem that a high percentage do not believe the research that is published......................I am suprised it is so high but not shocked, if that makes sense

I recall asking in the original post that we should confine ourselves to debate over the work of the researchers rather than a using the thread as a flame thread.

Please understand that this is not a thread for people to vent any vitriolic abuse aimed at any researcher who works on autism or aspergers. Feel free to attack or find holes in a person's hypothesis and work BUT not the person.

I think that making fun of Maxine by dong things like posting a mocking satire of what she might say to a man going through a divorce, or poking fun at the way she looks is not a good idea. I know that mocking a person whose ideas you oppose can be great fun but it is not always right.

I hold the view that a wife or husband with an abusive or unloving partner might suffer some stress related disorder, which conventional medical science has an understanding of and can offer reasonable treatment for. What worries me is that 1. Maxine seems to be doing research in a poor, careless or reckless manner. 2. She then starts to offer a treatment based upon her research.

My worry is that conventional medicine might be replaced with unconventional medicine which is less safe and less effective. Adults should be permitted to make choices regarding their treatment, even some treatments for fatal diseases should not be forced upon people.

For instance if I had cancer and 1 year left in this mortal existence, and I was offered a treatment which would extend my life by 2 months. I would refuse it if this hypothetical treatment would mean I would spend almost all of my remaining time in hospital having a unpleasant time, rather than being able to spend 10 months with a good quality of life. I suspect that many other people would make such the same choice.

Medicine should be regulated to protect the patient and society, which includes the desperate patient.

It would be wrong for a person to dangle an expensive and ineffective cure in front of a desperate person facing a disease which could cause their death. The 1939 Cancer act in the UK was intended to protect the desperate patient by regulating the treatment of cancer. I feel that it is time that some forms of counselling were regulated by law in the UK.

In the same way that normal oncology doctors have nothing to fear from the 1939 act, I am sure that the regulations of a counselling act will be such that those who offer safe and effective counselling will have still be able to ply their trade and have nothing to fear from the new law. The quacks, charlatans, poorly trained deluded “healers” and other questionable types would quite rightly have a lot to fear from such a law.

I heard of one case of a woman with breast cancer who was exploited by a shameless alternative medicine “healer” who charged her a vast sum for ineffective treatment and encouraged her to reject conventional treatment. I hold the view that a woman 100 years ago with breast cancer and conventional medicine would have had a better standard of care than that "enjoyed" by the woman who had only a homeopath in the late 20th century. I am not anti alternative medicine and I am not from the pro conventional medicine lobby, I am just pro safe and effective medicine.

While Maxine is not doing oncology work, I still feel that society needs to be protected from badly designed alternative treatments as well as from bad conventional medicine. My big problems with Maxine's work are that it

1, Has the potential to harm the client
2, Has the potential to harm the interests of others (client’s partner and the AS community)
3, Has not clearly been shown to be effective
4, Does not appear to have been subject to scientific review

When the last two points have been addressed I will lose much of my interest in Maxine.

While we are considering researchers in AS and autism, should we discuss some other practitioners and researchers.

From my understanding these are the qualifications needed to be able to diagnose ASC from the BPS in the UK

Educational Psychologist with ACCREDITED specialist training.
Clinical Psychologist with ACCREDITATION....................normally involves a 3yr undergraduate degree followed by 3yr postgraduate doctorate.
Counselling Psychologist WITH ACCREDITATION............AGAIN.............3yrs undergraduate in Psychology then ACCREDITED 3yr postgrad study ending in 'C', in Counselling equivalent to doctorate.


Quote:Woodpecker
<<1, Has the potential to harm the client
2, Has the potential to harm the interests of others (client’s partner and the AS community)
3, Has not clearly been shown to be effective
4, Does not appear to have been subject to scientific review

When the last two points have been addressed I will lose much of my interest in Maxine. >>

When all four points have satisfactorily been addressed I also will lose interest in Maxine.

Other researchers...................don't start me!

It is a shame, because despite a very few posts that appear aimed at being humorous rather than insulting, therer are some *very* valid arguments against Cass effect. I hope they don't get dismissed as a result of the not so serious comments[/quote]



At least some of us are *not* rejecting it for those reasons. As I said, I have AS yet would also appear to have the symptoms of CADD, wheras my NT ex-partner does not. It's back to how many exceptions does it take before the rule becomes worthless? In thermodynamics it would be 1. In psychology...well, it all seems to be pseudoscience anyway.

Last edited by ManErg on 22 Jan 2009, 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Somebody mentioned already that anyone- NT OR AS- can be experiencing the feelings associated with CADD, as that is a natural reaction to a difficult relationship. I don´t think it´s limited to only NT women in relationships with AS men. (Funny, too, that only NT women are supposed to get it- the name alone implies that it´s a women´s syndrome). In many of my relationships, I think both I and my partner suffered from something like CADD. Anyway, that´s my personal opinion, that any suffering relationship, due to different needs or misunderstanding, will have the same effect. And it´s usually nobody´s fault.