First time in history!! !! The NT/AS open hotline ! !! !! !

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I have a question for NTs that's sort of an offshoot from this. Why do NTs try to make small talk or ask questions in a noisy, stressful environment like this? I've noticed this a lot. In this situation I'd make the same mistake. I'm so busy thinking "okay now, where are the trays, silverware, napkins... <looking around> Oh there... Now try not to drop anything or let anyone bump into me... Should I get a straw? Where the heck are they?" that if someone suddenly asks me "what are you doing for lunch?" I'm just going to blurt out the very first thing that comes to my mind rather than try to figure out what the person might actually want.

Another situation, I'll be walking down the hall on the way to a seminar and someone will be trying to have a conversation with me. Of course I'll be struggling immensely because I'm simultaneously trying to figure out where I'm going and dealing with constant noise and interruptions. Then when I get to my destination and I'm finally feeling nice and relaxed, ready to continue the conversation, the NT will suddenly stop interacting with me. Why? It's so frustrating.

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bolding by me:

They do it because it isn't stressful for them so they don't realize it is stressful for you. To overgeneralize: Aspies focus, NTs multitask. Multitasking can be a good thing in some situations (making small talk while gathering lunch supplies) or a bad thing (talking on a cell phone while driving). But for better or worse, it is what NTs generally do and this is an example of it.



You finally got to the seminar so the time for small talk is over and it's time to focus on the seminar. Because NTs are able to do small talk while in the midst of noise and transitions, transition times are often unoffically designated as the time for small talk.

Yup. I'm completely screwed if there's no peaceful time to talk. I never even have a chance. So you can see why it's usually easier in my case not to talk at all and let people think I'm "shy".

To NTs:

What does it look like when I touch my face? It's one of my stims. Cheek, upper lip, upper lip with another finger, then another, etc., then cheek with index finger, upper lip, cheek with index finger, maybe do the other cheek this time, upper lip with palm, then other palm... also right cheek with left index finger at the same time as upper lip with left thumb. Is this off-putting? What does it make you think of?

I'm in school. There are some kids that I've secretly nicknamed the Orgy Group, and they mostly hang out in a certain room during lunch, or go get something to eat at a nearby restaurant (why would you do that? I always wait until after class), talk about stupid stuff, talk about their drug use, etc. I have a few questions about these people.

First of all, I go and in the corner by the door sometimes and watch them, and occasionally ask "really?" when they say something that might be sarcastic. (They got their nickname because I entered and asked "what do you guys do down here?" They told me they were just about to have an orgy. I left and came back one minute later (literally; I checked the clock) and then asked them about the orgy, because they were all sitting in the same spots with nothing out of place. I suspected they hadn't had an orgy and had never intended to. One guy said "yeah, that was a good orgy" and, addressing another guy, "arch your back a little more next time." So I said they must not have great stamina, in one of my few attempts at wit.) I don't understand what they're talking about and don't contribute to the discussion. How do I become a part of the group?

And how likely is it that the teachers know they're on drugs? I know they found one guy smoking tobacco, and I know that at least one other student knows they're on drugs, but do the teachers? How would I go about ascertaining that without "snitching" in case they really don't?

On another note, what is going on in relationships where the people involved mock or yell at or denigrate each other constantly, and yet show other signs of being deeply in love, like telling me they love each other when I ask and telling each other "I love you" and doing nice things for each other?

If I saw it, it would make me think of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder.

There was a baseball player named Nomar Garciaparra who went through a routine that involved pulling up his gloves and touching his arms in a very particular way. People argued about whether it was a superstitious ritual (athletes are apperently prone to this) or an OCD ritual. If you are not a professional athlete, the default assumption will be OCD.



I know a little bit about those kids because I used to be in that group. This was 25 years ago but your description is of an event that could have happened in 1979 (or any other time). I believe I was the one who said,"we're just about to have an orgy". OK, maybe not those exact words, but the spirit is pretty much the same. There are two ways you could have become a part of our very similar group so I'll just jump to the conclusion that these kids are a chip off the old block and similar things would work.

1)Bring out some more of that dry wit. Remarking that they must not have great stamina after one said "arch your back more next time" was the right thing to say. It shows you get their style of humour and they divide the world up into people who "get it" and people who don't "get it". (We did, at least.)

2)Share an interesting taste or skill. Again, I'm projecting. This worked for us back in the day and they sound like us- the next generation. But be careful not to share it in a monologue way. They want just a taste, like the trailor for a movie. They want to hear or see 4 minutes, not 4 hours.



The teachers suspect but don't have proof. If you want to be friends with them, maintain a "don't ask, don't tell" personal policy about drug use. Maybe they do. Maybe they don't. If they don't, it's all good. If they do, just stay out of that aspect of the group. The group will respect abstainers but only if they are confident that the abstainers are not "spys". A large part of why kids pressure each other to take drugs is because once you cross that line, you can't "snitch" without implicating yourself too. So the "just try it" pressure is snitch protection. If you want no part of that, it has to be clear to them that "don't ask, don't tell" is a policy you can be counted on to stick to. If they just smoke cigarettes, disregard. If they are involved in anything stronger than pot, it's best to steer clear of them regardless.





My old highschool group did this too. (Another reason I am guessing they are like us, the next generation). Being able to both dish out and take insults without anger requires extreme trust amongst members of the group. This is a way of cementing group bonds and displaying that trust while sharpening their snark skills. They would see displaysd of affection with no snark ever as being sappy, goopy, Hallmark Channel-y and not appropriate to them. Also boring. When they insult each other without malice or anger it is a way of saying, "I say this to your face and so you know that if you ever need me, I have your back". If somebody outside the group says the exact same thing they will bristle with anger because there is no implied "I got your back".

I've noticed that some people blur the line between "friendly" teasing and acting cruel though. It's mostly younger kids, middle school age or slightly earlier is probably the worst. I had "friends" who would say slightly mean things to me and others, not outright bullying but definitely testing the limits. Then they'd use the "don't get mad, we're friends" thing as cover. Sometimes I could take it, other times I couldn't. They'd get me some day when I'm in a bad mood and I'd end up physically attacking. Then adults would come in a label me as the problem.

Dandy,

You have an incredible sense of humor. Most smart people are probably going to get your jokes, but you may go over some people's heads. This is a reflection of how complex their thought proceses are, not the quality of your jokes. Dry humor isn't for everybody, but you do it well. Obviously at least some of those kids understood because they came back with their own witty comments. Without seeing the event it's hard to know if they were getting that you were joking or thinking you were serious and making fun of you.

Touching your face: I can't tell exactly what you are doing by your description. Do you have a sequence of spots that you tap, or are those just places you sometimes touch, or how does that work? It does sound very odd. I don't want to hurt your feelings. I want to give you an honest answer because I think that's what you want. It might be off putting and distracting for NTs the way making small talk during transition times is distracting for some Aspies/Auties. I believe that we can all talk about these things and find ways to accomodate each other. I think it's worth the effort because I think everybody has a lot to offer.

The only suggestions that are coming to mind about the face touching is that you might want to be aware of it and avoid it during significant times that you don't want NTs to be distracted. If you have something important to tell someone and you want them to take you seriously you might want to either hold off on stimming or try to find another stim that is less obvious, like wiggling your toes inside your shoes. I don't know if that's possible. If you find you really need to stim exactly that way some people will probably be able to handle it if they understand how it works for you. I really appreciate it when folks take time to explain that to me so I can try to be more accomodating, but not everybody feels that way. You'd be surprised how many people are willing to accomodate other people's oddities and how many people are hiding their own secret oddities. Sometimes NTs are relieved to find that they aren't the only one with an unusual habit/need.

Teachers knowing about drugs: They know. My generation made sure all teachers would know that all students are prone to that at certain ages for generations to come. Your Welcome.

Being friends with them: That's a more complex question and I'd probably need to see some of your interactions to really know what's going on and how they are taking you. My question is why do you want to make friends with them? If they are on drugs they may not be the best people to hang out with at this time. Is one of the boys really cute and interesting or something? It sounds like they may be an interesting group of kids, the orgy joke could have been very funny if they said it in the right way. They could also have been being mean about it. If you can tell me more maybe I can come up with better feedback, but I'm concerned about you wanting to hang out with stoners. How old are you?

I think Jannissy made some good points and agree that the joking is the right way to go if those kids are like my friends were in school. I will neither confirm or deny certain activities. We considered ourselves outcasts and would have been interested in your AS and willing to accept it and learn about it, in small doses.

My only reticence to totally sign on with that point of view is that they could also be using a more mocking tone. If they are, that would be bad. I think it's more likely that they kind of like you since they did come back with some good one-liners. However, they could have been doing that to impress each other and if you weren't showing your own emotions may not have had the clues they needed to know you got the joke and were thus qualified as a one liner.

The drug thing does worry me. With some of the stuff going around today the risks are pretty significant.

Don't worry, it's for research. After all, they're completely unlike me and there aren't any good books explaining their behavior. I want to learn how they behave and why. It would also be fascinating to experience being high, but the risk would be too great in this particular situation. Yes, there is an attractive and interesting male in the group, but I'm not crushing on him; I'm not into "bad boys." What exactly is "stronger than pot?" I must confess, I don't have a list of controlled substances in order by strength.

I'm in high school.

I don't present with monotone or flat affect very much. I think I was smiling when I said they had no stamina, but I've been very tentative every time I've gone to sit with them. I check my watch a lot so I'm not late for class. I have the watch with me mostly for that reason, and so that I can check it during math class.

It's spots that I touch sometimes. Where "sometimes" here means "I lost count of how many times I did that just typing this post." It's my second most acceptable stim, unless it's less acceptable than rocking. Also, why do you guys get so upset when I pace back and forth? Why does it make you so worried if I laugh at something inside my own head?

What exactly would "an interesting taste or skill" be? Would they like to know that the males in the group could develop schizophrenia, but that the females are more likely to develop it later? Would they like to know that only Lexapro and Prozac are approved in adolescents and hence, use of any other antidepressant is off-label? (I have a feeling I know the answer to this one. I tried to gossip with my mom, but I think she thought I was trying to hint that I needed to be on an antidepressant. No, Mom, just reading about them is enough to brighten my day.) Do you think maybe they'd be interested in my writing? One guy draws, and his art is MUCH better than mine, but I write decently, except for the fact that my characters come out unrealistic because I don't really know how people react to the situations I like to write about. (By the way, how would you react to finding out that your daughter had been 5150'd? What could convince you to get yourself 5150'd to investigate the murder of a long-dead cousin? What would a parent's reaction be if they then found out that reason?)

And what IS "just a taste?"

(Would it be a flagrant abuse of this thread if I asked how NTs would react in the situations I write about?)

Any controlled substance that is not pot is stronger than pot, including pot derivatives like hash.





That would be interesting and could lead to an interesting discussion of neurodiversity.



Yes they would like to know that. But don't tell them. It will only lead them to wonder what prescribed medications you might be taking and could they maybe buy some of the extra tablets from you. I have heard that ever since Ritalin became commonly prescribed for ADHD, an underground highschool black market sprung up of students with ADHD selling Ritalin to students without it. I'm not saying you're taking Ritalin- or anything else- but they will immediately think that and wonder if they can give it a try. Don't even bring up the subject of adolescents and prescription meds.



Yes, they probably would be.



Maybe you two could work together on a project: you write the story, he does the illustrations. He would know how people would react to whatever comes up in your plot.




I don't know what 5150'd is.



A few sentences, not a monologue.



That would be great. But if your going to put 5150 in a story, you'll have to work in a narrative way to explain what it means.

I'd love to see your test results on IQ, WIAT-II and stuff like that...not in a bad way. You have a very interesting mind and I really enjoy reading your questions and comments on this list. I think you and I would get along very well. I'm also very interested in Psychology/neurology and so on. I asked our psychologist about online psych programs and she said that some of the better psychology programs have their syllabi posted online and that I could read the recommended texts to learn more. You might enjoy that too. I'll try to remember some of the schools she mentioned...I think Harvard was one.

Not presenting with monotone/flat effect is only one give away that you are different. The face touching, an odd gait or any number of things can tip people off that you are different. Something I've noticed with my son, who also is not monotone/flat, but he does stim and he has a very hard time reading social situations. People assume he's not smart because of his stimming and some of the immature stuff he does. He puts stuff in his mouth a lot and talks baby talk when he's nervous. He's very smart and extremely good at programming and robotics. Lots of people assume he's mentally ret*d and don't understand the difference between cognitive/social delays and low intelligence. They may be nice people and simply not know, or they may be more intentionally ignorant and prefer not to know anything about anybody who is a little different.

The kids your describing are most likely not intentionally ignorant. They most likely consider themselves on the fringe, weird, and different and darn proud of it. They may know enough from seeing you in class to have figured out that you're not stupid. I'm guessing you're exceptional, and they might be too. They might be just as intrigued by you as you are by them, you just aren't able to read the signs. The kind of banter you are describing could easily be their way to try to draw you into their group. They may already consider you a friend of the group but not exactly in the group. Telling on them for drugs would end that permanently.

It doesn't creep me out if people laugh spontaneously. I've been known to do that from time to time. It might make me feel left out about the joke. If you're missing social cues you might accidentally laugh at a time that could imply you are laughing at someone for something going on at the moment. If I notice people staring when I'm laughing about something I'll just tell them I thought of something funny. People might think it's creepy because along with the stims they know there is something odd going on and may be worried about scizophrenia or something like that, which can be scary. Most people don't know enough about those things to make any kind of accurate guess so they just worry about it.

An interesting tidbit or skill would be interesting psychology facts or something cool you can do, like program robots (my son does that). I don't know if you are prone to do long monologues but a lot of Aspies are. It can be mentally exhausting to have a lot of factual information downloaded at me all at once. In conversation I prefer a give and take. If I'm interested in the subject I'll ask questions. If I'm not I won't and the polite thing to do is move onto a new topic or a new conversation partner. Also, the other person may have something they want to talk about and it's important to take turns. Not all NTs do this very well. I've known plenty who would talk all day but never listen. It's rude and unfair, and also not so interesting.

I have no idea what 5150 means.

Just a taste is two or three sentences, then a pause to gauge the interest of a listener. Sometimes I'll say "I could talk about that all day but I don't want to bore you" sometimes they probably want to say "Thank you, please don't" but they usually just bring up something else to talk about if they don't want to hear more. If they do they say so.

This is so useful! Thanks!

5150 refers to a piece of the legal code, but has become a transitive verb meaning "to commit to a psychiatric hospital for 72 hours." The next step up is a 5250, which is the same except that it lasts two weeks. The story in question does explain that.

Actually, the way our school is set up (it's small, kind of a combination last chance and gifted program, catering to middle and high school students, sometimes concurrently with a "regular" school), the classes are one-on-one, so no, they don't know what I'm like in class. Would it be bragging to tell them I'm passing my worst subject with flying colors?

...I'd like to see my scores too, for that matter. I haven't had a chance to be tested recently. (The only time I was tested, I was five and it wasn't the WISC. It was useful only for finding a dx.)

I don't have an odd gait (unless you ask the people on the floor below me), but I know I dress oddly and I carry a lot of stuff with me. I can see that they all wear... um, "fashionable" clothes (I can tell that their clothes are different from mine, but I can't really say how), while I wear my sensorily-bland wardrobe. (Doesn't stop me from stimming with it...) Speaking of which, how do I dress fashionably?

How do I find a time to say something interesting about psychology?

And I can't remember the individual people very well. The banter dissolves into one largely faceless mass. How do I figure out which guy it is that draws, given that I don't recognize his face?

5150 refers to a piece of the legal code, but has become a transitive verb meaning "to commit to a psychiatric hospital for 72 hours." The next step up is a 5250, which is the same except that it lasts two weeks. The story in question does explain that.

It would worry me if my son was in a psychiatric hospital. The one we have here is pretty brutal. If it were a nice place I'd be glad to see him getting help. When he's cycling because of his bi-polar that might be a really good option for him.

Actually, the way our school is set up (it's small, kind of a combination last chance and gifted program,...I'm like in class. Would it be bragging to tell them I'm passing my worst subject with flying colors?

So these are smart kids you're describing. It sounded like it, but it's hard to tell in this format. Yeah, they probably think you're interesting. I can't guarantee that's true, but it'd be my first guess. You seem like a lot of fun.

I'm so proud of you for doing well in your hardest class. Way to go!


...I'd like to see my scores too, for that matter. I haven't had a chance to be tested recently. (The only time I was tested, I was five and it wasn't the WISC. It was useful only for finding a dx.)

I'm wondering if you'd have a good solid IQ and a super high WISC, which is typical for a highly divergent and creative thinker. The IQ only tests convergent thought and first internet impressions of you are that you could be divergent in the clinical sense (which isn't a bad thing at all)


... I can see that they all wear... um, "fashionable" clothes (I can tell that their clothes are different from mine, but I can't really say how), while I wear my sensorily-bland wardrobe. (Doesn't stop me from stimming with it...) Speaking of which, how do I dress fashionably?

Do they wear a lot of black? Are they goth? I'm no good at fashion. I'm very verbal and not very visual. I watch "What not to wear" for tips. Not all their advice applies to me, but if the person they are helping has a similar body type and lifestyle to mine I find it helpful. They always talk about why certain styles work for someone and why others don't and they don't push one style it's very individualized.

How do I find a time to say something interesting about psychology?

That's hard for me to explain. You want to look for an opening, but that involves taking note of social cues. I think making a psych joke could work with this crew as they obviously have a sense of humor but you'd have to wait for the right time to slip it in. You could make some kind of unflattering psychological evaluation of a disliked professor. It's not very nice and I'd be careful not to be really nasty about it. They might like really nasty, but you don't want to be that kind of person (I hope). Something like "Mr. Ex was really off the wall today. I don't think he can help it. I'm pretty sure he has ADHD and needs some pills." Assuming there is a Mr Ex who is off the wall some day and he does appear to have ADHD...

And I can't remember the individual people very well. The banter dissolves into one largely faceless mass. How do I figure out which guy it is that draws, given that I don't recognize his face?

Are you able to find and memorize some identifying mark for each of them? Maybe memorize the shape of their ears, hands or noses or something. Eyes would probably be too sensory. Even though you have trouble identifying faces I think you've got the brains to find some back door to get around it. You might be able to tell them that you have a sensory issue that makes it hard for you to tell one person from another then when you are talking to them ask they who you're talking too. They might be willing to help you out. You're taking a chance there but you might find more acceptance than some people give NTs credit for. At the kind of school you're in chances are a fair number of them are not truly NT anyway, just not properly diagnosed and treated.

I don't know if they're smart. My shrink recommended the place, and she warned me that a lot of the kids are there because they got suspended or expelled from other places.

One girl seems to wear some black. She's pale, but she has dark eye makeup. I think (I don't have a good memory for the people; I remember the place better) I've seen someone with a red shirt. And I think someone wore white one day.

I know they all hate my math teacher (it's her job to go down and tell them all to be quiet), but I absolutely adore her, and further, she seems completely NT. I guess I could mock her accent, but that would be a low blow, because English isn't her first language, and anyway it wouldn't be related to mental illness. Though I guess it is psychology, and I could explain about the differences in learning languages as a child versus as an adolescent or adult, and the way it changes the brain's structure. From there I could probably explain about Broca and Wernicke and their areas of the brain, and the aphasia you can get either way. And from there it's on to the other areas of the brain, and neurotransmitters, and from there...

Ummm, yeah.

Well, thank you, everyone. I think I should be able to manage now. Should I keep you posted?

I wouldn't pick on the math teacher if she's truly nice and they just don't like her for doing her job. If you could find a foible to joke about in a not so mean way, that might be better.

I wouldn't go so deep into neurology with them. Avoid the big words. Just talk about how easily little kids learn languages vs adults. There are some jokes in there, like how it's all over for most of us to learn languages easily after puberty. When I was in China it was really neat to see how the kids would go out to play and come back fluent. Us grown ups would hammer away at our language skills making slow progress. I used to have to borrow a four year old to translate for me to do tricky shopping.

Thank you, Kiley. Should I mention the structural difference in the brain of an adult who learned a second language after starting puberty? Should I mention that you can lose your first language without losing your second in the case of, e.g., stroke?