Asperger's Dad from hell

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XD love the nickname "divorcedntmom".... very arrogant

"look at me i was born normal"

i don't think she meant it as an arrogant thing, it just describes her situation, what she is, and whether she has an illness or not.

by her first post she simply seems to be worried about her kid, moms usually get protective when a young child is hurt in any way or in danger of the possibility of getting hurt.

i'm sorry if you meant that as a joke.

either way i could be wrong it has happened before.

If by "what we have now is way better than before" you mean, it's good that we no longer simply throw people into old-timey institutions and stick a knife into their frontal lobes, well, yes, I agree with you. But you're still missing the point of this "label" stuff completely. For what it's worth, you probably shouldn't feel too badly as EVERYONE gets this wrong.

At first glance, a system of (nine, ten, however many) personality disorders seems to afford the diagnosing doctor a greater degree of specificity. The opposite is true. It compels them to interpret each individual in terms of a mere handful of "profiles" which are highly general to begin with (no matter which PD you choose, there are a rather diverse group of people that it can be--and is--applied to). The distinction between these profiles is generally nonexistent in any given individual. Where do you draw the line between BPD and NPD and Bipolar I and Bipolar II and Bipolar VII and PTSD and complex PTSD and ADHD and Asperger's and...? The little bits of criteria by which we're supposed to differentiate between these conditions are ultimately ARBITRARY and almost humorous when you consider how seriously people take them (as if the state of neuropsychological/mental health science in 2011 just happens, for the first time in human history, to have things just right). Do you not see the larger picture here? When a person's brain is messed up, they tend to engender certain traits. You can take any combination of those traits and build a new DSM "condition" with them. Why not take half of the traits associated with ADHD and half of the traits associated with BPD, slap them together, and call it "Xemnasfan's Syndrome"? There would be a massive number of people who would be eligible for this diagnosis--many, in fact, would fit the profile of Xemnasfan's Syndrome better than either BPD or ADHD. So, why shouldn't we do it?

There's no point. We could build new boxes like this all day long and never run out of new "condition" profiles to slap together. And in the end, we will have added nothing to the understanding of the people who would qualify for them. We already know what's wrong. Their brains are messed up. And we already know what the treatment plan is: throw everything plus the kitchen sink at 'em and pray to God that something works. We already know the prognosis, too: sh***y.

The notion that there might be a specific treatment that "works" for each of these conditions (making an "accurate" diagnosis very important) is absurd. Even the example you presented: giving someone who has hyperactivity the same meds a manic depression patient takes might not help and even hurt them in the long run is somewhat absurd as there is no single treatment for either of those conditions which is universally effective and even what is generally effective for people with "manic depression" (who's stuck in the dark ages now? ) might be harmful in any given individual who fits that profile.

The best way to diagnose patients with neuropsychological conditions is by ascertaining their degree of severity in regard to a few broad trends, and then putting all of the focus on ascertaining the traits/problems of that individual. This is, incidentally, the direction that mental health science is moving in. The old classification systems are useful as a sort of educational reference--i.e., to give a "feel" for what sort of personalities the doctor in question might be confronted with--but its utility in making individual diagnoses which actually benefit the patient is extraordinarily limited.



BPD is a highly heterogeneous "profile" which women tend to fit more often than men. So what? It's not overdiagnosed, it's just a profile that a lot of people fit.



So I suppose the person who evaluated you to begin with is completely incompetent, maybe even insane, right? Here's a suggestion. Your current therapist thinks that interpreting your behavior in reference to autism is going to be more productive than interpreting them in reference to something like BPD. Remember, the ultimate measure of the worth of a diagnosis is in the degree to which its utilization benefits the patient. If someone asked, "What is Verdandi's condition?" I'd be willing to bet that answering "BPD" would convey a much fuller and more accurate picture of YOU than "Asperger's", even if they're both technically accurate. But what's the point if doing so just sends you further down this road of guilt and blame and confusion?



Naturally, it's the ones who didn't know you well who believed you had BPD. Of course. And it's this huge mystery to the people who do know you well. Why is that?

I'll tell you. Because you've given them a sterilized, "alternate" description of each of your repugnant behaviors. You have undoubtedly "shown" them how your behavior can be interpreted in terms of autism. Why should I assume that your friends have any better grasp of these topics than you do? This website is full of "experts" or at least serious dabblers in regard to autism, and you'd be hard pressed to find twenty of them who really understand what autism is (I'm referring to the gestalt of autism--not just reciting lines from the DSM ).

Bottom line, you're wearing the rose-colored glasses. And your psychological integrity depends on your ability to keep them on.



Now that's interesting.

Any reasonably clear-minded reader should have been able to tell that the victim/victimizer stuff was simply something that I brought to the table, not as a direct response to anything you said, but merely as a part of my musings on the topics at hand. As a matter of fact, I started my discussion of the victim/victimizer dynamic by saying:



How is this representative of my "assigning opinions" to you? Is it not ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that I'm just talking about an idea that I often encounter?

So what are you doing here, exactly? You're seeing yourself (or, more accurately, your reflection) where it's simply not warranted. In other words, you're being narcissistic. Not that you love your reflection, really--you're just doomed to see it everywhere you look.

Narcissism is, of course, a core feature of ALL cluster B profiles.

And, I hate to say it, but you've done this with me in the past. Actually, this isn't even the first time you've done it in this thread!

I had previously written:



You replied:



Once again, I was simply discussing the topics at hand, NOT directly replying to anything you said. Yet--surprise, surprise--you see your reflection once again. Another extraordinarily egocentric, confused reply.

It's all about you, right?

And you bowed out just in time to avoid accounting for your laughably childish interpretation of that study you linked to. Maybe that's for the best.

While Verdandi might have both BPD and Asperger's, you do need to admit that misdiagnoses occur, and more often in females with ASDs than males. People will sometimes not see the true cause of visible traits and associate them with having symptoms of things they don't have.

For example, I was diagnosed with social anxiety at age 13. I was put onto anxiety medications at age 15 and was told how much I had anxiety issues. The truth was, what others were viewing as fear actually had no fear involved - I was neither anxious nor fearful of the situations, I was only overwhelmed by them. The fact that I was overwhelmed by them wasn't even causing fear.

At this point in time, I might be diagnosable with social anxiety - since that point I've developed the fears that tend to lead to anxiety in people with ASD. But the truth is, in my case, that doesn't really matter, because Asperger's is a far more meaningful label than having any anxiety disorder. While the anxiety is possibly true as well, the fact that it was diagnosed first doesn't mean at all that it is a better description of me.

Diagnosing some people with AS with their co-morbids is more difficult than others because of alexithymia. When I was diagnosed with Social Anxiety, I hadn't been able to describe to others the difference between being overwhelmed and fear, which only lead more to the false representation of the situation. They hadn't asked any questions appropriate to determining the difference because of having no knowledge on how to work with people on the autistic spectrum - in fact when I stopped seeing that psychologist, it was because she said I probably had Asperger's and that while I'd not be given a diagnosis because I was female and people view it as a male's disorder, she was unable to help me and I needed to see a specialist to get the help I needed.

I'm not saying that people don't use ASDs as an excuse for all their "problems" - I've definitely seen that occur, both in people with ASDs and in those who didn't even have an ASD. However its not nearly as cut and dry as "you've been diagnosed with something other than AS, that is an intrinsic part of the description of you".



The symptoms of Asperger's and Cluster B personality disorders rarely overlap - there is anti-social aspects in most of them if not all of them, but that's about where it ends. People can certainly have both, but I see no way that they're considered part of the spectrum, and I see no way that narcissistic traits (either for NPD or elseware), is considered to to with ASDs. They're traits that exist in some people and not in others, and I've yet to be shown any pattern that suggest that they're more often in people with ASDs.

I am really confused by you saying that they describe the same type of thing and have no idea where that is coming from other than possibly the fact that you identify as having both and ASD and a personality disorder.

Poke,

I don't want to talk to you. I find it offensive that after I said that the first time you were willing to theorize at length about my behavior around people you've never met in situations you've never observed. You also suggested that my therapist is lying to me for some inane reason. This is the kind of thing I was referring to when I said I prefer not to interact with you. I would much prefer it if you stopped interacting with me or discussing your theories about what you think I have or how you think I behave.

I do not know what your intent is, if this is just another discussion or if you're actually trying to get under my skin - seriously, I have no idea. I am assuming the former, which is why I am trying to be as explicit as possible about my reaction.

i think you are thinking into this way to much, if anything the labels are really just to sepearte one person's symptoms from another. like not all aspies have the same symptoms, i know that first hand, i came here and talked about the internal tv in my head back on my old account jetfox, and about 2 people understood what i was talking about. i am also nearly emotionless i often called myself heartless on a post by post basis, i don't even know what empathy feels like, because to me it is a burden i don't need.

but there are many others that said they had more empathy then most others, i couldn't understand that at all because i hardly feel emotions at all. that means everyone on this site cannot be categorized under one label because we are all different. and i say i have schizod because someone on here mentioned it to me, and told me to look it up. i did and nearly every symptom on the list i felt familiar with and suddenly 15 or so years of doing things and not know why but still saying i was normal and blaming myself for every thing i did that was not normal to society, suddenly all made sense, heck i have more schizoid traits then aspie traits.

to me reading those symptoms helped me to understand myself better, also you seem to be treating me like i was no officially dxed with aspergers, i was and i was the worst thing i could have ever hoped to hear, i would have been happier to be told i was going to die in 2 weeks, because at least if you die from something you are released from it.

also you made no sense at all in that post, i read the first paragraph got confused halfway through, i don't know what point you think you are making.

do you hate aspies, do you hate mental illness? what do you think would make the system better? because you haven't gotten to that part yet. if we just say we are messed up then that's no different the asylums [i don't call them institutions that's giving them to much credit] those places were like prisons, or maybe worse'

should we drop the labels? should we keep them? you say that If by "what we have now is way better than before" you mean, it's good that we no longer simply throw people into insane asylums and torture them and make them a freak show for money, well, yes, I agree with you. *corrected it*

but then you turn around and say in your mass confusing first paragraph that we should basicly drop the labels all together. which is what they did during the days of the asylums.

if anything the labels people take are not official dx, they are just a way to separate one person from another, we are all different in this world, so that means no one will ever have the same dx [don't like spelling the whole word because i forgot the spelling]. two people dxed with the same condition will not act the same. i think alot of people forget we are all not the same.

like most aspies like trains me included, but some may not, some may like a specific type of train, one might like steam trains and electric trains but not diesel trains, or like all companies but b & o, or just like santa fe and nothing else. and that's just one interest and because we are so different we will never be dxed with the same symptoms even from the same illness, and the symptoms may be the same but effect us in different ways.

even if two people catch the common cold it will effect them in different ways, some can die from it but others will live. i don't even understand why it is called the common cold anyway, there is nothing common about it.

you make no sense at all and you are contradicting yourself so much i'm not even sure at this point you know what your talking about.

but basicly we need individual labels because we are individuals.

There is a neurologically-based "substrate" to be found for every behavior. This doesn't mean that the surface-level description of the behavior is wrong or inaccurate. It's very simple.



I wasn't suggesting that BPD is probably a better description for Verdandi merely because it was the one she got first. More on this in a second.

And, back to this brain-based "substrate" stuff...isn't it just so interesting that Asperger's is virtually ALWAYS the "right" diagnosis?

Like, I was misdiagnosed with _________, __________, and _________ before I finally found a doctor who "got it right" and diagnosed me with Asperger's.

(Here's a hint: usually those blanks are filled in with "bad person" labels.)

No one is ever very skeptical of receiving an Asperger's diagnosis--out loud, that is. Actually, this is a good idea for a poll...I'll pick up this line of reasoning in another thread.



That is simply, completely, utterly untrue. The only way this might be construed as being true is if you drew the line between "Asperger's" and "normality" SO low that it would exclude the vast majority of the people who post here. Indeed, deciding where to draw this line (and knowing why we're faced with drawing this line at all) is at the center of so much confusion over what Asperger's actually is.



I said that the terms "narcissism" and "autism" describe the same type of thing. And they do.

For more on the relationship between Asperger's and PDs: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt156230.html



Once again, your response is out in left field. I can only assume that this is the passage you're referencing here:



How, exactly, am I suggesting that your therapist is lying to you? What I'm describing is clearly much more nuanced, that she is interpreting your behavior in terms of the one of two legitimate labels that she feels will better serve you. Reading that as “your therapist is lying to you” is both wrong and rather childish.

Please note (and I hope Tuttle is still reading, too) that I did not say that you have BPD any more than you have Asperger's. Rather, I said that BPD is probably a more descriptive label, it probably conveys a fuller picture of what sort of person you are. In other words, a person can read over the list of DSM criteria for Asperger's for hours on end and possibly not derive a single clue as to what sort of person is being described. On the other hand, a reading of the criteria for BPD is immediately instructive. Like, “Oh--one of those.”



I'm sorry, but you just aren't getting it. Please see the post I linked to above for Tuttle, especially the parts about "box building". I'm not sure how much more clearly I can state it. I'm not “thinking into this way too much”, you're simply not thinking about it enough.



Er...no and yes, I suppose? Kind of a complicated question.



Lots of things. Root out the Freudian BS and industry influence. Take the politics out of autism. Address the confluence of developmental disorders and personality disorders. Address the concept of heterogeneity in “mental disorders”. I could go on all day, really.



I am not saying that we should throw the DSM out the window. I'm saying it should be radically redesigned. And, yes, part of that redesigning would involve jettisoning a lot of individual labels.

Keep in mind that I'm FAR from the only one who feels this is the right way to go forward. If you actually cared enough about this stuff to, like, read about it and whatnot, you'd already know this. While everyone here carries on about the DSM classification system as if it were utterly reliable and reflective of reality (“That's not ______, it's ______, here, look at this criteria...”) the actual DSM, out in the real world, is in the midst of a massive crisis of validity.



I'm sorry, but you sound a lot more confused than I do. You make a "point" in one breath and undercut it in the next.







Yeah, you just don't get it.

If you really want to understand, keep reading my previous post and the one I linked to until it sinks in.

Narcissism and aspergers are not the same.

Some people may view of people with aspergers as being arrogant but that is not the same as narcissism.


If you've ever met narcissists you will know that sometimes they will pretend to know about a particular subject that the other person whom they have declared as an attack on their narcissistic supply (attention) will often use keywords the other person has mentioned before about that subject to use in an insulting manner insisting their ideas as correct with the intent to offend or upset the other person. Narcissists don't care if your feelings are hurt and like to degrade and insult others. Can you really say that about aspergers?

If you think you can then you don't really know the difference.

I have repeatedly asked my therapist "Have I demonstrated any behaviors or traits that you perceive as related to BPD?" and she has said "No, none." If she is doing what you suggest, then she is lying to me. I somehow doubt this is the case.

What you wrote above appears to be a response to:



It's pretty clear that if she says she sees no signs of BPD symptoms or behavior and they're really present, then she would be lying, whatever rationalization you care to apply to it. I don't believe she is, but I do believe you have no idea what you're talking about.

So, no, not out of left field at all. You seem to be under the impression that saying something is not the same thing as saying something. For example, saying:



But when I said I wasn't going to discuss this further with you because you were assigning opinions to me I had never stated, you replied:



Any reasonably clear-minded reader would have seen you mention me by name when describing your victim/victimizer stuff, and then continuing as if I held a position that no one with an ASD could ever victimize and anyone with a cluster B PD could do nothing but victimize. A position I would never endorse, nor should it have been implied from anything I've ever said.

This is why I have no desire to continue any discussion with you, in addition to the fact you are attempting to make judgments and observations about my life that you are in no position to make or understand (and seem to only assume they must be true because of a diagnosis after a one-hour evaluation). You seemingly don't even know what you are typing in response to me, as you keep saying my responses are "out in left field." It's pretty ironic that you keep trying to say I don't think very clearly when you either cannot or will not keep track of what you have actually posted.

Further, when I explained the fact that the BPD diagnosis is not credible, you simply constructed a more elaborate scenario to justify why you think - with your complete lack of context for a credible opinion of your own - it is accurate anyway. If you're going to argue with me about events that you weren't present to witness, involving people you don't know, talking to you is a complete waste of time.

Yes, what a silly little rationalization, that she possibly thinks the label of "BPD" would cause you harm and is encouraging you to interpret your behaviors in terms of another, equally valid label. How silly! Maybe she thinks that BPD is a terrible, harmful, invalid diagnosis. Preposterous! I can't imagine a female therapist ever espousing such bizarre ideas!

Once again, your childish interpretation of the situation is just plain useless.



Boy, you must be a REALLY crappy reader.

Once again, I said NOTHING that implied that you have ever even THOUGHT about these conditions in terms of the victim/victimizer dynamic. Simply using your name in the same sentence doesn't mean anything! Read it again. I can't imagine that you're really this thick. Do you understand that when I say "Verdandi describes someone who is a 1", I don't mean that you're literally describing that person in terms of being a 1--I mean that you are describing someone who happens to be a "1" on my little scale?



Right, I almost forgot! YOU'VE ACTUALLY BEEN DIAGNOSED WITH BPD!! !



Inconvenient truth: my "elaborate scenario" makes perfect sense. Plus, it's not really elaborate.

Hmmm which repugnant behaviours are you referring to exactly?

I'm pretty sure that people aren't taking your posts personally because they are narcissistic, it's because they are actually personally insulting. If you need further clarification yes it is insulting to people to assume that because they are autistic their behaviours are 'repugnant', just as it's insulting to suggest that agressive and hurtful behaviour is inherently autistic (as the OP seemed to be inferring, hence the strong reaction).

I believe no one has suggested that the conditions cannot exist together, merely that the behaviour described in the OP is not indicative nor conclusive for an autism diagnosis.

Yeah, like, I pointed out specific instances of unwarranted narcissism. If you want to pick them apart, go for it. Otherwise...

yeah hurtful that's the reason i jumped in, asperger's sufferers are not bad people, it's not the illness you have that makes you mean and nasty, it's the choices a person makes. and i find it insulting that he says he has it and is judging all of us like we're evil or something, because that means that he is also evil so who is he to judge.

is bpd bi-polar disorder? if so i may have that as well only because it is in my family tree, my aunt on my mom's side has it and depression. but it would explain my "gaming mode" i get into playing games. on the game i am completely focused and if i so much as hear a simple noise it pisses me off, on my games i am cynical and aggressive. but once i get off the game i go back to my normal personality, which is more of a withdrawn pessimistic side.

i can laugh when i want to, but eh.

i'm not going to bother reading it as it is not my interest. my only one in that area is the asylums and if our system keeps me out of those asylums then it is good enough to me.

i also see your posts as hateful comments, you have on your profile AS dxed, and then you come on these threads and judge us like we are evil, because that would make you the same as us, you have no right to treat others this way when you say you have the same thing everyone else suffers from.

i'm guessing by what you said that you still have the asylum way of thinking. that mental illness is bad and and that people with mental illness are equally if not more bad. all your idea would do in time is shove us back into those buildings.

and about 9+ people jumped on you when you shot your mouth off, and you think you are right, a few of the posts i read seemed like they were hurt or insulted by you.

if you can't respect, the system at least respect us as people, i'd bet that at least half of these people know more about AS then you ever will.

i got tired of trying to be respectful when you show us none.

Actually you are the one who is coming across as a narcissist. You keep insulting this person insisting you are correct about that person's life and you seem to be enjoying this. This is something narcissists do often. Degrade people, attempt to humiliate, regurgitate knowledge from others passing it off as their own as if their own mind came up with but usually to insult someone else.

Even though she already mentioned the diagnosis wasn't correct, BPD...you keep insisting that it was in a sadistic manner knowing that you are trying to upset her.

As much as you keep saying narcissist, I keep wondering if perhaps you are projecting.

I was married to someone with Asperger's AND with narcissism and so was drawn to this discussion. What the dad did to his son was very similar to what my ex did to our children, particularly our oldest son. I read people's posts with interest and then watched in dismay when this Poke person started hijacking the discussion.

This Poke guy is obviously imbalanced (I'm not referring to the Asperger's at all). I'm sorry for the attacks and distress he's causing, but the best thing to do, in my experience, is to ignore him. Don't try to parse his 'reasoning' (& lack thereof).

Back to the original question--it is entirely possible to have both Autism AND a personality disorder, BUT the two things are entirely separate. I have known many kind, wonderful people with Autism/Asperger's, and many horrible people who are 'typical.'

What made my ex unbearable was not his Asperger's at all--it was his narcissism. And I would have to agree with several posters that the woman's ex husband exhibits many characteristics of a narcissist or some other personality disorder. Some of the things my ex did--destroy a tennis racket (bash it to pieces) when I won a round of tennis; bash my son's lego castle - which he took days to build - when he peed in bed; twist my son's arm behind his back so hard that my son started sobbing, when my son said he wanted to stay at a friend's house and play. And so on.

My ex has several other narcissistic traits. His Asperger's is entirely separate. There are a few areas they intersect--one is in his ability to go to a rage out of nowhere, and then back to a flat affect within seconds, and then to deny he was enraged. I've read this is a symptom of autism (?). But it's also narcissistic. As with the poster, my ex has many family members with Asperger's and one with full blown autism (who is institutionalized), but again, it's his narcissism that's horrible.

Best of luck to the woman. I don't know what to say except that your primary duty is to protect your child. His actions are violent and abusive, definitely not normal. Destroying his baseball helmet? Wow. And your son is only 6. Whether or not he has autism is besides the point and has nothing to do with the abuse. The abuse is very, very troubling. I would definitely advise you to at the very least speak to a therapist, and proceed from there.