Are people with autism borderline sociopaths?

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It feels less like a touchy subject for you than it feels like you want me to care that it's a touchy subject for you.

On the crossover between autism and sociopathy all bets are off as to what they react to. There was a (not very functional, clearly autistic) guy on AFF who claimed to be a sociopath, faked friendliness like one, got good results from that, posted how guilty he felt about it, and reacted furiously when I pointed out what he was doing even though he kept telling people what he was doing. With psychology like that you can get lost in details or just say screw it, people are either cool or they aren't.

I'm with you, I figure once you know how it feels to be in a shafted minority you don't want to write off anyone else. Shades of brown.

Trust me. It is a very touchy subject.

I do fake my emotions sometimes, but it's not what you think. I don't have the most appropriate emotional reactions, so I pretend to be feeling the expected things. A lot of times I have no idea what I'm feeling.

I have no intuitive theory of mind. I have to build an intellectual bridge to my emotions. Sometimes I don't recognize intense feelings until it is too late and I have a meltdown.

If I had no feelings, shame or sense of guilt, why would I enter into this conversation seeking advice and consolation from a perfect stranger? I don't think I have anything to gain from you, so why would I want you to believe it was a touchy subject if it wasn't?

It is a touchy subject because of the implications of my recent breakup. Surely you can understand that?

I doubt Fraac can understand that. Perhaps there is this want from sociopaths to pass as autistic because they think we get more sympathy when really we don't.

If you were a sociopath Tambourine-Man, people would treat you better because people have been conditioned to accept dishonesty with a smile as nice and being honest with a straight face as cold and mean.

Who should one trust more? The person with the charming smile that is full of compliments? The person who tells it like it is?

It's not really NT's fault. It's just how they were raised and it's over a misunderstanding.

I wouldn't peg you as a sociopath Tambourine. I can identify with delayed emotional reaction and then feeling horrible. No wonder why psychiatrists claim lack of empathy. They don't see us when the emotions actually do register but this is what happens when people read books and they themselves read "lack of empathy" then say "ah ha!" Sociopath or Narcissist.

This person wouldn't know if a sociopath were in the same room because that person would be doing every correct social action and buttering them up.

Sociopaths, get the memo. Autism is not your scapegoat mask. Go away and stop latching onto us thinking you'll get more sympathy when you do something awful because autistics get nothing but ridicule.

I've read it twice and I do not understand your argument at all, fraac.

Hmm, so if someone, say my ex-girlfriend, were to say that I was a sociopath because I was rude, cold, blunt, logical, and emotionally immature, yet still capable of a degree of manipulation... does that even make sense?

Isn't the key feature of sociopathy an ability to appear, well, not be rude, and cold, and blunt?

Sure, I can manipulate people. Anyone can and everyone does, from the cradle to the grave. If you think you never manipulate anyone, you aren't being honest with yourself. All social interaction is manipulative to a degree. Manipulation need not be malicious. NTs manipulate one another effortlessly. They understand that they ate doing it. It is part of the polite social game. This game makes me VERY uncomfortable.

I can only keep up the polite, NT mannered act for so long, then I crack and people get offended. I don't think that is sociopathy.

@Fraac: Are you a sociopath? I'm not accusing you of being one, you just seem to have a personal interest in the matter, but I cant make sense of what you are saying. Actually, I'm not sure we are working with the same definition of sociopathy.

What is a sociopath to you?

Last edited by Tambourine-Man on 20 Nov 2011, 1:52 am, edited 3 times in total.

Same for me.

What I'm getting out of the argument is "you process emotions differently, and I want to call you a sociopath, so I'm calling you one without ever answering the question of what that means to me"

I'm sorry dude, but this sentence makes no sense to me. How can someone be sociopathic on the surface, but have non-sociopathic internal states? What does this mean?

And why would you call me a sociopath in response to a post in which I clearly and frequently state how hurtful I find that label?

It's possible that you have an emotional reaction to the word 'sociopathic' because of your girlfriend but then also want to get people involved with your reaction, which is still functionally sociopathic, and could still be a reaction to childhood stuff. I knew someone with DID, PTSD and possibly autism who was functionally sociopathic - it's just word soup beyond a point. We're talking about details beyond the tenth significant figure. Your girlfriend was trying to hurt you: you do that by saying things that could be true and can't be disproved. The rational way of handling those is by admitting they don't matter.

"How can someone be sociopathic on the surface, but have non-sociopathic internal states?"

Lots of conditions look like sociopathy. I never called you a sociopath, please re-read; I'm very precise. From the point of view of my use of this forum you're functionally sociopathic. It's a totally cold observation that should provoke no emotional response. I find it fascinating that you claim it does.

He processes emotions the same way you and I do. His acting style is different. It's interesting. What I'm saying is I doubt I would be able to work out the cause online.

His description of how he processes emotions does not match how I process emotions. It might be like you process emotions, but not all aspies process them the same.



I haven't seen anything of him either acting or describing acting in ways that I associate with sociopaths, other than mentioning of manipulation.

What I see is him saying he reacts strongly to the word 'sociopath'. That makes a lot of sense to me. I react very strongly to someone calling me even potentially abusive, when that occurred in the past caused the /only/ rage meltdown that was because of something to do with myself rather than someone else that has occurred in my life (usually I get depressive meltdowns and if they're rage meltdowns they're associated with wanting to protect someone else from the wrongness that is something.).

Appearing one way and actually being are 2 different concepts. It offends me greatly when people call me cold, unapproachable, etc.....its hurtful. Labeling someone like that as a sociopath.... seriously that is stretching it way too far. Sociopaths are calculating and could care less if they run someone over.....like a lot of politicians and big time CEO's. However, if you are socially off....you will do things to people without the realization unless confronted. Plus a sociopath doesn't sit there apologizing to people for their bad behavior....the ones i have come across will make a joke and lots of times find ways to isolate/discredit people.

EDIT: How is Tambourine_Man acting? I dont see it at all....

Depends on her views of manipulation. Some people have alot of things twisted up. One person perceives the person giving the fake big smile and squeely bubbly voice as sweet and very nice while the other person gets leery with that same person because it usually turns out that person cannot be trusted.

However, in general. Alot of people are being fooled into falling for such routines insisting anyone who doesn't abide by that routine as the liars and the sociopaths. This has alot to do with what is learned on tv and also alot of people tend to project because their actual empathy is knowing that they can project their own thoughts and feelings on the majority of the population because they've followed the same program.

We however did not follow that same program and noticed that it is full of double standards. The person tries to project their own thoughts and feelings onto you with the assumption that they are right because the majority of the population follow their protocol. It ends up hurting you because that assumption is wrong. I'm sure you are still getting over your girlfriend. You know what you are and maybe you'll find someone who will look at you from an individual perspective instead of projecting the current trend of mindsets onto you lumping you in a mindset that you really don't belong.

It's a lack of individuality and in replacement of that there is resentment towards people who have some form of inner self and their own identity. Underneath it all, they feel trapped too.

Indeed most sociopaths are functional..the ones that aren't very functional are in jail. I can relate to what you say about emotion, I think alexithymia gets in the way, for me all emotions are labeled "adrenalin" (low adrenalin, high adrenalin, etc lol) I have a hard time recognizing fear from excitement, etc.
As I've mentioned before, though, I'm in a relationship with a sociopath, so emotions are my worst enemy. Showing any kind of reaction to subtle bullying is the last thing I want. I think the main difference we could spot between an aspie and a sociopath is the relationship to power and control.
How "coming out on top" is more important for the sciopath than avoiding conflict. I don't actively provoke conflict, I'm mainly defending myself all the time. He does provoke conflict just to get a rush from my reactions and assert his power over me. I do try regaining control by not appearing shaken by this, or even retaliating, but "crazy making" is hard to fight. You know, when they say they "never said that" or that "this conversation never happened", or telling me I said something when I never did.
Or the "denying to death" when confronted with evidence (of cheating, for instance) , or the long term planning of emotional deprivation, slowly but surely making you addicted to the smallest scrap of attention....
Aspies aren't experimenting on people, we adapt short term to a situation, a conversation with an NT, a social gathering, we do try to appear normal and "cool" for a period of time, but it is only successful for as long as our energy levels are appropriately high. We don't "read people" and instinctively know what they expect from us, like sociopaths do thanks to their high cognitive empathy.
We don't instinctively look for "what we can get out of this or that person". All we try to achieve is to be regarded as nice and normal, possibly be liked a bit, maybe make a friend.
We don't find it highly amusing when nice and caring people trust us, and we don't regard them as inferior just because they are kind and giving.
In short, we might have a hard time recognizing our emotions, but we don't view niceness as stupidity, a good heart as a heart to exploit, and a trusting person as a prey.

Thank you.

Some Aspies might be like this, but it is not a trait typically associated with autism.

I'll just add I still can't make sense of what fraac is trying to say - I get the feeling that "functioning sociopath" is some kind of shorthand that means something to fraac, but to me it doesn't mean much at all, and I find it difficult to relate "sociopath" in any sense to what Tambourine-Man is saying. Even his bringing up what happened with his girlfriend doesn't strike me as odd - I bring up issues on this forum that I've had with family, friends, and my therapist. Others talk about things that happened to them as well. It doesn't strike me as exceptional or unusual.

Last edited by Verdandi on 20 Nov 2011, 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

"What is it like inside the mind of a psychopath?

Let me stress that there are no certainties here. They are so manipulative that only a fool would claim certain insight. Educated assumption is the best anyone can do.

It is established that they do have a demonstrably higher pain threshold than most people and that their reactions to conventional emotional stimuli are considerably muted. However it does not seem as simple as assuming them to be soulless, devoid of emotion.

Psychopaths are as individual as anybody, that must be said. Psychopathy seems to be quite separate from identity. Just as there are superficial people of every kind there are also superficial and thus "soulless" psychopaths. That is not however the whole story, there are others who seem capable of experiencing a rich emotional range on some levels. I would be inclined to contest the assumption that a psychopath is deficient emotionally. The real deficiency seems rather in the area of communication and perception. As a dyslexic is unable to decode letters and words, a psychopath seems unable to decode or relate to the feelings and sensations of others, beyond the superficial "cause and effect" they compensate by manipulating so skillfully.

That sword has two distinct edges. Imagine being capable of emotion and feeling yet incapable of discerning the feelings and emotions of others beneath the surface, which may well, and is often, a mask of some kind, even in the most healthy of us. On the other side of the blade, an human being in torment surely signifies no more to a psychopath than a football player combining his sporting career with aspirations to an Oscar in pursuit of injury time, or Wylie Coyote emerging battered from one of his terminal disasters.

How do you feel about those last two? Maybe amusement, sometimes irritation perhaps, but surely nothing deep or significant?

It is possible that is very similar to the way a psychopath feels dismembering a mother in front of her child, or, more subtly, arranging a coup that will destroy a major industry leaving thousands without jobs or hope for the rest of their lives.

A psychopath understands the difference between right and wrong, but by rote. He understands that this thing is called "right" and this other thing is called "wrong". He also understands that "wrong" incurs penalties he wishes to avoid, and "right" attracts praise and approval.

What he is, very possibly, incapable of understanding, is why one thing is "right" and another "wrong" intuitively. Leaving all religious and cultural considerations aside, right and wrong are largely determined by the ratio of harm to benefit. Harm and benefit are surely measured in the feelings and emotions of others?

Pain is an alarm system, as his own "alarm system" is so muted, the psychopath is probably profoundly deaf to the indicators of the same "alarm system" in others.

A scream that signifies pain to the rest of us, only signifies "noise" to a psychopath. He must determine any meaning beyond that intellectually.

The result is that, in terms of emotion, or feeling, in others it is unlikely that a psychopath is aware of any real different between honesty and pretence. To the psychopath, the outward appearances, which are all he is really aware of, are almost identical.

The socialized psychopath has learned intellectually that certain reactions denote certain states of mind. In relatively cut and dried situations, though it is synthetic, empty, that is enough. Life is rarely cut and dried, most moral decisions are complex and loaded with subtle nuances. To learn them all by rote is impossible. Thus, under pressure, the totally amoral lack of empathy is revealed, simply because even the most socialized psychopath cannot figure enough out intellectually in time.

People tend to regard psychopaths as malevolent, this is far from the general rule. Many are, by inclination, something that rather resembles "good natured", with a total inability to perceive what "good" consists of, or what will cause pleasure rather than pain in others.

Some psychopaths are capable of loving as deeply as anyone else, while being incapable of rendering the effect of that love benign and tolerable to the object of it, let alone beneficial. The chilling truth is that not matter how much a psychopath might love, or wish to nurture, he can never know how to achieve that, nor even how to monitor his behaviors towards that end.

Denied access to the internal reactions of others they are focused on the external reactions. This is the root of their manipulative skills. We all manipulate at times, but we are inefficient, because our empathy for those we manipulate distracts us. Without that distraction the psychopath becomes, effectively, a perfect, optimized machine for manipulating the people within his environment.

To be born a psychopath is probably to be dealt a very cruel hand in life. To live and perhaps feel, in a world that for you is totally devoid of all emotion, apart from your own, full of underlying motives you can never hope to read. A world that is cold, empty, ruthless, terrifying lonely and stultifyingly boring.

It must seem I ask "Sympathy for the Devil", though perhaps the psychopath warrants sympathy I do not ask it, nor give it. I like cats and appreciate them, but I would not advocate that mice adopted the same attitude.

Until there is enough understanding of the psychopath to change his nature, however he suffers, he is the predator, and we are the prey."

anyone else seem to be able to choose what they empathise over?