Question for NTs about how you think

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When I started having panic attacks the first time, I didn't realize they were panic attacks because the only thing I experienced were the physical symptoms: Tightness in my chest, shortness of breath, rapid heartbeat, massive amounts of adrenaline. I never identified the emotion of panic until the physical symptoms became ridiculously alarming, and at that point I simply couldn't stop thinking about the symptoms without a benzodiazepine to effectively shut off the anxiety. I went to ERs and doctor visits multiple times because all I felt were the physical symptoms (which were worrisome) and couldn't relate it to any emotions.

I don't know if this is making sense - I have trouble feeling emotions as a mental process unless they're extremely intense. Not that the emotions aren't present - the other day I was angry about something, but I didn't feel angry. I was, however, snapping at people for no reason, and took myself to bed before I picked a fight. I still don't know what was setting me off, and I didn't feel angry or upset or anything.

I guess that's alexithymia.

Anyway, I'm not trying to push you into describing anything because I think there's an experience gap that's really hard to bridge here. Thank you for trying so far, though.

Ha, no- you're not pushy.
I think you're right- it's hard to explain foreign experiences to one another.

i suffer from anxiety pretty bad, this was what first got me to the doctors, well ER first. I never recognised the physical feeling of anxiety until it got so bad, that I had to leave rooms and pretty much collapsed.

The latest evolution is hives on my hand, I actually find these useful. They are like a stress watch, if they are there I know something is beginning to stress me out, so identify it or get out of the current sitution before I lose it.

Jason

Please stay on topic. I'd like to completely understand this. And please, more NTs.

fraac: If you really want more n/ts you'll need to ask somewhere else. This forum isn't very representative.

Jason

This forum has plenty of NTs, and nonautistic forums would be freaked out by even asking the questions.

Agreed, it's not related. I am most verbal in my head when visualizing situations to come does not seem to produce a clear emotional response. I start actually asking myself questions and scolding myself in my head "what are you? excited, nervous, scared, happy about this idea?? come on, come on , I said I'm going to leave the country, I HAVE to know what I feel about this!! !"
Generally I give up because there's no answer to be had. All I feel clearly is panick and terror, those are pretty easily recognizeable from the amount of adrenaline-feeling in my stomach and a sort of dizziness.
I suppose extreme happiness would be recognizeable in the same way but it's been so long, I'm not sure.

I get both the physical and emotional symptoms of anxiety.

The 'not being able to stop thinking about your symptoms' is a part of anxiety and is often what drives it. However with a panic disorder it is common for people to also fear the symptoms and worry about them returning. They become concerned that there is something physically wrong. That is all part of the emotional side of anxiety.

The predominant emotion involved in anxiety (in my experience) is fear, which is often induced by the worrying. There is something they are afraid of. There are also worries and concerns that can be upsetting instead, so they may also be upset about something also, although in my experience that is more likely to turn into depression than anxiety, especially if it is chronic and not acute. For me the driving forces beneath my depression are boredom, feeling unfulfilled, being incredibly upset over something, feeling trapped in a situation I want to get out of and emotions such as grief when there has been a loss.

Being physically or mentally exhausted can also bring on depression as well as anxiety. At those times I am too tired to think so I mostly experience the physical sides of depression and anxiety in the form of some of the symptoms you describe and also fatigue, stomach upsets, headaches and migraines and on occasion, becoming physically unable to stay awake (but only for short periods and mostly when I am too stressed out and my brain is now refusing to process anything for a while).

All sorts can trigger my anxiety...some times my anxiety is more physical than fear based (such as being out in a crowd...there are no worries attached to this, I just find that my system does not like the hustle and bustle and noise) and some things are more fear based than physical (worrying over debts for example). Sometimes they are a bit of both (such as in social situations...worry occurs due to past experience of bullying but at the same time, without or without that worry, socialising is incredibly exhausting for me due to my highly introverted nature...even with friends I know well and am not anxious around I can still find that socialising with them for long periods and not getting enough alone time completely wipes me of energy to the point where everyday functioning becomes difficult).

Exact emotions are tricky things to describe and I get the feeling they might vary between individuals...they certainly seem to in terms of intensity. One persons upset seems to be another persons hysterical. One persons afraid seems to be another persons terrified and so on. Emotions tend to exist on a scale. At the one end you have milder feelings like annoyed and on the other end of that particular scale you have rage where rage is much more intense than annoyed.

Then there are times you are not sure what you are feeling because your feelings are mixed. Other people sometimes feel emotionally numb where they don't seem to feel anything (I personally don't experience that very often, the only time I do feel anywhere near numb is when I am in shock over something extremely traumatic and it fades once my brain has registered fully what is going on).

I personally find that, at the extreme ends of the scale, a lot of feelings become physical and seem to sit in my gut...fear can manifest as a stomach pain and is a gnawing aching pain in the pit of my stomach. Loss creates a similar feeling but it can also manifest as chest pain if I was bonded to the person who is now gone...literally an aching heart feeling. On the milder end of the scale they seem to be more of a state of mind only. Ie I may just be feeling a bit upset or melancholy over something or just a bit fed up today because I am annoyed about certain things. Those kinds of feelings don't affect my functioning, they just affect how I feel, however the feelings on the more extreme end can induce massive amounts of anxiety and depression and cause me to shut down for a while.

Unless something traumatic happens though, I tend to find I only get the extreme feelings when on medication, which is why I am trying to wean off of them...it's like a game of olympic emotional ping pong on antidepressants where your moods are far too intense and ping pong around all over the place from one emotion to the next, even when there is no direct reason for them to do so! My emotions seem to take on a mind of their own when I am medicated. I have more control over my emotions without pills.

I can have trouble explaining my feelings to people in a way that they understand, but a part of me wonders whether it is an inability to be able to explain my feelings or whether I am maybe experiencing something that the person I am explaining to is not able to understand for various reasons. Either one can cause a miscommunication when trying to communicate and leave people wondering what in the hell I am rattling on about!

Last edited by bumble on 29 Jan 2012, 8:20 am, edited 6 times in total.

Yep, most people are not aware of their thinking processes (enough) to know about these details. The ones that do are introverted and introspective.

Out side of this, you'd have to construct a format questionnaire to parse the differences. They wouldn't see a value to it.

I strongly suspect there is a semi-imagery, more or less a verbal narrative, and a feel ( intuition), all components that move forward. But some may not use pictures, but symbols of thought. Some of my thoughts lack any verbal part, and are an isolated image with a sense or feel about it. A non verbal language you could say.

The mechanics of this would have to require a recollection of thought ( memory) and we know memory is experience of something that is tagged with "good or bad" emotions, or is "valued." To recall, or 'think' would require a conjuring of memory in some way. If one lacked the non verbal and could just see words, there would have to be an emotion with that for some sort of understanding so it could be used, (as moving in realtime).

Ones that lacked intuition in this way, such as a lack in 'feeling something' ( those values of understanding) would replay/recall their 'hard memory' and parse the difference with knowns, intellectually. A Non-Realtime Understanding.

I actually did bring the topic up on a mailing list inhabited by maybe... 50% NTs, and what I primarily recall was being told rather directly that it was impossible to think of a concept without having language to describe it. Which was news to me, as I often have this problem, and the lack of language means the concept is accessible but I cannot explain it no matter how hard I try. A few years ago I managed to find a book that gave me language for something I had tried to explain for years, and I was suddenly writing reams about the topic because I knew what to name the concepts.

I have the language...plenty of it. Have no trouble describing my thoughts or feelings to others.
But I've yet to understand why words are necessary in my own head, IE, "internal narration".

Can you explain it in other ways...perhaps via art (pictures) or textures etc?

Sometimes art can be a good way to express something that you are struggling to put into words. Sometimes a picture can say more than words can anyway!

Unfortunately, I have never really learned to draw. I think I would like to, however.

The not being able to stop thinking part was when I had non-stop panic attacks for about a month, I think. But I remember the feelings as being constant adrenaline, rapid/loud heartbeat, tightness in my chest. As the panic attacks got more intense, it was harder to interpret what I was physically feeling as well. Now I suspect what was happening was I had developed fibromyalgia from severe stress, and the pains - which doctors repeatedly told me made no sense and couldn't be anything real - triggered panic attacks.



Thank you for the explanation. I think it may help me make sense of some things.

You could also try things like photography and digital photo manipulation as well. Use of colours can also help to express thoughts and feelings, shadows and light the same.

I can't sketch myself (I keep meaning to learn though) so tend to work with other arts and crafts for the time being.

On a side note for those with depression:

Art can also be a great antidote for depression as it often possesses such great beauty. Then again, for myself, studying the earth sciences is also a great antidote for depression also as it keeps my mind busy with fascinating information and interesting musings about the nature of world and how it all came to be here. For that reason my art and crafts have taken a back seat in my life recently and my focus has moved back towards my degree, maths and science (which is where it spent most of its time when I was younger before side tracking towards the art for a number of years).

Not freaked out perhaps but totally confused. Plus people would probably not really undestand your question in the first place, would be my guess.